Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, I recently aquired some Pink mold paste.

The idea is I'm gonna buy one box of say, taccies and then re-mould them (either unused or just melted sprues)

Now, making thems not the real problem.

My question: I've paid for the plastic I'm using, I've got no intention of selling/giving models so, is it stealing?

Thoughts?

Yes, it is illegal.

You cannot make copies of GW models.
It doesn't matter if it is for resale purposes or not.
It doesn't matter if you paid for the models you are copying.

ok, so it's a no-no.

Well, I'd generally say ok with that but they're insanely expensive.

Maybe I'm just being weird but my opinion.

Yeah, but "it would be expensive" isn't gonna hold up as an excuse anywhere. Just pirate software instead, it's easier.

They can get you for this.......
They are watching you now!!!!!

I'd suggest you change you op so as to stop GW from tracking you down and sueing you for loss of earnings... (",)

TBH I do the same.
Instead of buying 5 packs of tactical squad marines, I'd buy one pack and then mould the rest.
I'm not gonna be paying out E200+ for 50 plastic toys the size of my small toe if I can spend E40 on moulding materials and save myself E80 that can be spent on more important things like my mortgage or food..

Besides, moulding them yourself gives you the chance to put on your favourite type of helmet,
carapace, weapons than you'd normally get in the box.

I like the corvus pattern helmet, I've got entire squads and companies with that pattern because it fits the
army fluff I have for it. I would not have been able to do this if I didn't mould the required helmets..

I know it's illegal but it's not the only illegal thing I do.
Anyone in here ever been arrested for jay-walked before??

Don't worry too much about the legalities of it unless you plan on mass producing them and selling them on...
In which case BEWARE!!!

Captain Solon wrote:Ok, I recently aquired some Pink mold paste.

The idea is I'm gonna buy one box of say, taccies and then re-mould them (either unused or just melted sprues)

Now, making thems not the real problem.

My question: I've paid for the plastic I'm using, I've got no intention of selling/giving models so, is it stealing?

Thoughts?

It is copyright violation not theft.

Semantics.

You are trying to make it seem less illegal, which is a laughable concept at best.

I don't think Krazy was trying to make it seem less illegal. Fraud is fraud is fraud.

I remember a post over a year ago where a new Dakka member posted extensive pics of his own 'manufactured' crisis suits. He even showed pics of the molds he'd made and the finished products. It was top-notch. Fortunately for him after we mentioned his error he quickly deleted the content of that post. I think only like 5 or so people got to post in the thread and see what it was before he changed it.

True, the legality of copyright violation is the same as theft - IE, it's not. The morality of the two however will differ depending on who you ask.

And before anyone starts, no, there is no such thing as absolute morality.

There's nothing stopping you Green stuffing something thats very very similar to the peice you want then casting that.

I imagine green stuffing an entire sprue of tactical marines would be a little challenging...

Better yet, make your own. I think the warstore sells blank figures from reaper, or some such, for just such a purpose.

We've been through the re-casting debate a dozen times guys......

Solly wrote:I'm not gonna be paying out E200+ for 50 plastic toys the size of my small toe if I can spend E40 on moulding materials and save myself E80 that can be spent on more important things like my mortgage or food..

No one is forcing you to play this game.

Solly wrote:I know it's illegal but it's not the only illegal thing I do.
Anyone in here ever been arrested for jay-walked before??

So what's stopping you from robbing your neighbour, since you're already doing something illegal.

I understand it's an expensive hobby but that's no excuse to ignore the law. GW invests in these products in order to make a profit so they can invest more and keep this great game going.

Yeah GS a whole sprue is a bit out of most people reach but I (someone who has less than average sculpting skills) have still managed to use GS, plasticard and tubing to convert weapons that look similar to GWs stuff. For example THs, alternate power armour bodies and beaky helmets are easy if you plan first.

Just wait until 3D printers get cheap enough...

For the record, I am strongly against copyright violation, however I like to see legal terms used correctly.

Theft is a criminal offence. Copyright violation is a civil offence (except under provisions of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.) There is a difference in law.

ItsTheSneak wrote:Just wait until 3D printers get cheap enough...

Here's one for $1000 (USD) http://cgi.ebay.com/MakerBot-3D-Printer-Complete_W0QQitemZ180469858513QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a04d780d1

As always, it's worth a mention here that copyright laws do vary from country to country.

Here in Oz, recasting is illegal. Yes, if you're just doing it for your own use, the chances are slim that you'll actually get in any trouble for it. It's entirely up to your own moral compass as to whether the decision to break the law or not should be influenced by the likelihood of getting caught.

Bear in mind though that if you plan on using the miniatures in a public venue (specifically in a store) you run a very good chance of someone noticing that your minis aren't quite right. And mentioning that your minis are recasts is a very good way of ensuring that you never have to play in that store again.

Insaniak has a very good point. Here in sweden we have a sort of "fair use" policy that basically allows me to make small scale reproduction of intellectual property I've payed money for. So I can copy a CD, as long as I am not spreading it to anyone outside of my very closest friends and family. There is some debate between interpretations of this but a praxis is that sharing copies of a work with up to five people is not really prosecuteable. If I ever make money on these copies or ask for anything in exchange, then I'm definitely breaking the copyright laws.

I am also allowed to do derivative works, based on other peoples copyrights. This is most easily defended and commonly accepted if I do a humoristic depiction of a known brand or product. But as long as "significant creative input" is created by me, the derivative work will belong, with copyright and all, to me. This is often the case of musicians who do more "tribute to" works, as opposed to a simple cover. Needless to say, there is lot of predecent for music, painting and indeed most forms of art that makes these rulings quite simple nowadays. But I don't think there is much earlier judgements to be had when it comes to modifying miniatures.

And a final very improtant note to Shrubs among other: Law is different from morale. When you consider the moral implications of breaking a law, you must always consider things like: Who has decided this law? Who benefits from this law being upheld? What moral assumptions is this law based on? Most laws are fair and morally sound from the perspective of most people. But some laws are so bad that you are doing a good thing by breaking them, so that society can reform and change those laws that much quicker. And I'll not break one of those internet rules by referring to the obvious case here, so how about I refer to South Africas apartheid laws during the 1970s as a good example of when people with monetary and military might imposed rules that they liked on other people, and the main benefit of those rules were that they kept the same people in power.

Intellectual copyright laws are a matter that can be discussed at great length and that needs lots of thought. I must however say that when my band records CDs to sell, we always leave the music on our homepage for anyone to dowload, complete with pdfs for the covers. And we leave a link to our paypal account. If people think we are worth their money, they will buy the discs from us or give us money.

So, what you need to ask yourself is: Is GWs miniatures worth my money? Do I want to support the powerstructures that makes intellectual property important? If either of those two are true, you should definitely pay for every model you want. There might be other motivations as well.

Mellon wrote: Here in sweden we have a sort of "fair use" policy that basically allows me to make small scale reproduction of intellectual property I've payed money for. So I can copy a CD, as long as I am not spreading it to anyone outside of my very closest friends and family.

Other countries have similar laws or policies. Although something that is often overlooked when this sort of thing is mentioned is that they often don't apply to everything.

In Oz, it's legal to make back-up copies (in a different format to the original) of Cds, computer software and books. But the same law doesn't allow for copying of DVD's, and also doesn't allow for the copying of sculpture (which is what miniatures would slot into).

Some countries' 'fair use' policies as well are also a little restrictive on just what that 'fair use' is. Making a back-up CD so that you don't have to risk scratching the original, or copying a CD onto your MP3 player may well be considered fair use. Copying something simply so that you don't need to buy another one is generally not.


All of which should be taken with the caveat that I'm not a lawyer. This is all just information gleaned from trawling the internet, and from miniature IP-related discussions with IP lawyers on various forums over the years.

But some laws are so bad that you are doing a good thing by breaking them, so that society can reform and change those laws that much quicker.

In a democratic society, there are much better ways to get laws changed than to simply choose to ignore them. Breaking the law because you don't like it is not any sort of moral high ground when you have an avenue available to change that law. But that's an entirely different conversation, and not really part of the scope of this discussion or this board.

Captain Solon wrote:Ok, I recently aquired some Pink mold paste.

The idea is I'm gonna buy one box of say, taccies and then re-mould them (either unused or just melted sprues)

Now, making thems not the real problem.

My question: I've paid for the plastic I'm using, I've got no intention of selling/giving models so, is it stealing?

Thoughts?

There's actually no blanket answer to this question. It will depend on what country you are from, and what they consider what you are doing. Since you are not planning to resell the models, it would be highly difficult to actually prosecute you if someone chose to do so. If your countries laws considered this to be copyright violation you might argue that it falls under the doctrine of "fair use" arguing that you're simply doing an interesting type of conversion. After all, if this is illegal its arguable that any time anyone uses green stuff to convert something in a way that mimics a games workshop product then it's similarly illegal since they are copying an existing product.

In any case it's in no way the cut and dry issue that it's being represented as. Even it's "illegal" or gives GW the right to sue you in a civil court for damages, it most likely falls in the category of crimes like jaywalking, things they rarely if ever bother to pursue unless they have some other agenda.

now then, second question:

If I've got metal models, and I can definatly say I'm a poor painter, let alone of metal.

If I want to re-cast metal models so they're plastic, is that illegal

Same situation using different materials.
Same answer.

It's not like metal models are any harder to paint than plastic ones.

Prime the surface properly and it's all the same.

Yes, what you're intending to do is illegal. It's also not cost effective at less than 20 units (unless you do the moulding right, you're pushing it to get this many casts out)

Oh, and it's Polyurethane.

You can't just cast in plastic (not styrene anyway, without steel trap dies and injection machine-whatzits). Forget about melting down some sprue and pouring it in - it doesn't work that way.

Shrubs wrote:

Solly wrote:I'm not gonna be paying out E200+ for 50 plastic toys the size of my small toe if I can spend E40 on moulding materials and save myself E80 that can be spent on more important things like my mortgage or food..

No one is forcing you to play this game.

Solly wrote:I know it's illegal but it's not the only illegal thing I do.
Anyone in here ever been arrested for jay-walking before??

So what's stopping you from robbing your neighbour, since you're already doing something illegal.
I understand it's an expensive hobby but that's no excuse to ignore the law. GW invests in these products in order to make a profit so they can invest more and keep this great game going.

Nobody forces me to play.. **Sorry satan, im going back to the gaming table now**

Your right, I might as well be robbing my OAP neighbour..
Where's me crowbar!!

chromedog wrote:
It's also not cost effective at less than 20 units (unless you do the moulding right, you're pushing it to get this many casts out)

Legal notice: If you live in a country where the coyright/intellectual property laws forbid you to make copies of models that you do not own the copyright of, you might be charged with "planning a crime" by reading and understanding this text. Unless of course you plan to craft some models of your own and make copies of them, then knowing these things are perfectly allright. In sweden, where I write this text, the procedure described is legal, explicitly and clearly so if applied to a model you have constructed or significantly altered yourself.

The amount of models you need to cast to reach a "break even" compared to buying similar models depends on how you value your time spent vs money spent, and what method you use to create these models. If you are not too picky about the quality you can use the pink goo that dentists use to make molds of your teeth (can't remember the name) to make molds of your models. Alternatively you can use two-component-silicone, it will be cheaper and carry finer details but will carry more small airbubbles. Then pour in any sort of tin-mixture that is used to cast classical napoleon or gun-toting-occupants-and-cholera-infected-freedom-fighters models with. You should be able to find that metal at any large toystore. Most Citadel/GW miniatures have a lot of fine detail that will be lost in this process, since there will be air bubbles and both of these very simple procedures will have trouble getting the moulding material to run into the fine detail of the model. Also the metal used for casting toy soldiers is not quite of GW/citade standard. Expect to live with some lower quality models or to do some serious greenstuff work afterwards. Once you have completed a few experimental models and have learned the technique you will have no trouble preserving details like a chainmail. Do a few googles to find much better guides.

If you want to make some serious reproductions you should look into vacuum casting in silicone molds using resin. There are a few wonderful threads here on dakka and on other places of the internet that tells you all about how to do it. But that costs a lot of money in investment of gear you need. For much lower treshold: greenstuff casting is a great way to reproduce small details, such as a single aquila, for your models. Once again google is your friend.

I wish more people would craft and cast their own models. I hope I have inspired someone to try.

You've re-inspired me Mellon.
Thanks

How DARE you even concieve of cheating the all mighty Adeptus Gameus Workshopious of their rightful tithe---addendum 20%--of your annual income. this matter shall be investigated to the fullest extent of Impierial law-- Praise the Emperor --the Ordo Mallius shall review your infraction and deal with matters in its own way--destruction of molds to be followed by interrogation, fair trial, and execution--May the Emperor--blessed be his name--have mercy on your souls