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last weekend was a massive flop for me at a team tournament.
this 2 day event started ok, lots of friends, plenty to talk about. but went down the tubes fast.
first game, im borrowing beastmen (old) against skaven, around turn 4 boyo decideds he want to cast his 13th spell , he rolls 4 dice. i say the spell costs 25 to cast. he says that doesnt matter if he gets a total energy....... i guess its legal.....
alls ok though, in his shooting phase he forgets to check me for painic tests,and moves onto the hand to hand. after his first roll, i point out what hes done and dont let him go back, 'not if your going to try and cast a 25 cost spell with 4 dice i say.' hes justifiably mad, but im ok with that, as he would just have kept on going had i not told him. we go onto draw 11/9 (9 for me)

second game? against a friends woodelves woooo hoo!!!, unfortunately his captain is pretty much the biggest douce out there. We dont get along, i hate the bastard.
with my friend its always an easy game, sure there is a tournament, but we play easy, allowing mistakes to be corrected, or forgotten things to be done. IE: that unit forgot to shoot...... go for it.
around turn 4 (what is it with turn 4?) the idiot captain comes over, and strats telling my friend what hes forgetting, at one point he bustles my friend aside and moves his unit for him...... well i tell the dude to leave, hes interfering with the game. yes its a team tournament but every player has to play thier own game with no help. he wont, says its a free country and i can go to hell. well afte the judges come over after my screaming match.... (im afraid to say i lost it, and am not proud that this person was able to rile me up so. tell me again why its illigal to slug someone inthe head who desperately needs it?) the judge tells the person to leave. and he says again no. thing about Austrians they dont like confrontation. im pretty sure they grow their pairs at half size. judge leaves. i give up the game. 20/0 . but all is not lost idiot boy is docked 10 ppoints for interferance. afte the c-ordinator hears about it.
game 3. playing my best friends little brother. hes slow, we make it to the end of the 3rd round in OT, but ok, i tie 10/10.

next day. i didnt come . was to pissed about the idiot and didnt want another confrontation.

still a few rules came out of it that were severly silly.
the first is the skaven 13th spell with 4 dice to cast it.

the second envloves a over run into a fresh unit.
the probelm with this is that the over running unit cant wheel to allign the new unit it comes into contact with becasue a third unit prevents it. picture a open v something like...

_____ <--over runnning unit

\ <-A.........
\ ............ / <-B
\ ........../

the over running unit makes contact with unit a, it wheels to align and cant because unit b prevents it..... how do you resolve it?

1. Irresistible Force does mean that the spell is automatically cast regardless of casting value. This is really not a big deal, especially since the odds are greater that he'll miscast, since a miscast always takes precedence. If you’re not aware of a rule, and don’t believe it, the proper course of action is to ask to see the rule and/or to consult a judge. Not to get angry with your opponent.

2. Panic tests are not optional. In my book skipping them is cheating, though if both players forgot, and you didn’t remember until mid-way through the following turn, it’d probably be too late to go back. If we’d only got to the next phase? You’d better believe we’re going back to test.

3. The guy who came over and interfered in your game was absolutely out of line. At that point you really need to call the judge over, and if the judge doesn’t resolve it, get the head judge or the organizer. Keep your cool, but don't let it proceed.

4. Regarding your Overrun question, it’s just like any other charge where the charging unit can’t align properly due to the presence of a third unit or impassible terrain. This is covered in the movement phase chapter, IIRC, under “awkward charges”. First option is to wheel as far as possible, then wheel the unit RECEIVING the charge so as to line them up. If that’s also not possible, you just have to fudge it as best you can mutually agree, trying to get them as close to where they should be as you can, while forming a straight touching battle line.

Overall it sounds like your experience at the tournament was a challenging one. Not to be judgmental, but it does sound like in addition to a difficult opponent or two, you may have made the situation a bit less fun for yourself by losing your temper and your cool. Toy soldiers are very rarely worth yelling over.

thing about Austrians they dont like confrontation

that's not strictly true

Remember a certain little corporal

Mannahnin wrote:1. Irresistible Force does mean that the spell is automatically cast regardless of casting value. This is really not a big deal, especially since the odds are greater that he'll miscast, since a miscast always takes precedence. If you’re not aware of a rule, and don’t believe it, the proper course of action is to ask to see the rule and/or to consult a judge. Not to get angry with your opponent.

2. Panic tests are not optional. In my book skipping them is cheating, though if both players forgot, and you didn’t remember until mid-way through the following turn, it’d probably be too late to go back. If we’d only got to the next phase? You’d better believe we’re going back to test.

3. The guy who came over and interfered in your game was absolutely out of line. At that point you really need to call the judge over, and if the judge doesn’t resolve it, get the head judge or the organizer. Keep your cool, but don't let it proceed.

4. Regarding your Overrun question, it’s just like any other charge where the charging unit can’t align properly due to the presence of a third unit or impassible terrain. This is covered in the movement phase chapter, IIRC, under “awkward charges”. First option is to wheel as far as possible, then wheel the unit RECEIVING the charge so as to line them up. If that’s also not possible, you just have to fudge it as best you can mutually agree, trying to get them as close to where they should be as you can, while forming a straight touching battle line.

Overall it sounds like your experience at the tournament was a challenging one. Not to be judgmental, but it does sound like in addition to a difficult opponent or two, you may have made the situation a bit less fun for yourself by losing your temper and your cool. Toy soldiers are very rarely worth yelling over.

ok good answers all except that here we play that an opponent is resposible for the tests he forces you to take ie: panic from shooting/magic , its his resposibility to catch them (reason being is there are way to many people screaming when we use to do it the other way) the not optional thing isnt used. and your porbably right that i had alot to do with it as well yelling at someone even thogh they are being a dick isnt an option.... still doesnt change the fact that id like to meet him in a dark ally one day though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
night i mean....

Except that is a houserule - you have *houseruled* that you can ignore the *mandatory* tests.

And yes, getting annoyed because you didnt know a rule is not a great way to go about it

1. Its pretty common for players to through a remaining 2-3-4 dice at a spell to try to irrestible it. mannahnin is dead on target, on 4 dice its more likely your opponent miscasts the irrestibles. This is part of gaming, its not that big a deal.

2. If the event has "house rules" to avoid panic checks, that's just odd. Panic checks are built into the game. If your upset he "forgot" them, then your into a bad situation. Best bet, play slower. Slow yourself down, you'll notice a lot more rules debates go smoother, and your more focused on the game mechanics. Feel free to ask your opponent to slow down to, most opponent will be happy to, because likewise you feel more into the game. It flows, it feels more like talking and socializing instead of fighting to get to turn 6.

3. Why did you bag the 2nd day. You said this is a "team" event. So basically you chose not to go. That leaves your team mate up the creek without a paddle. I'd never not show up a team event. Plus your 2nd day, could have gone 10x better, playing guys you may not otherwise met. Re-read your post, think about what you went through that day, and consider what you want out of tournments. Your always going to run into a dbag, cheesy git, laughing about it is the best route to take.

Just like to chime in with the rest- to say it sounds like both you and your opponents were at fault. The way it reads, you were kind of a jerk in your first game, and got subjected to a bad situation in your second- to which you (by your own admission) reacted very poorly.

I used to be more amped up about games, but since returning to the hobby, I can't possibly imagine myself in a screaming match over anything to do with it.

The next time things get frustrating, I'd just step back a moment, and ask myself whether any of this is going to matter in a week/month/year. Answer ought to be no.

RZ

not that i want to defy the masses or anything...but in my area we follow all the rules (armybook, rulebook, and official FAQ) simultaneosly.

You CANNOT just throw dice at a spell if you cant roll enough to hardcast it, this topic was touched on in the dark elf FAQ when people were ditching their power of darkness dice. Just throwing dice and hoping for more 6's than 1's isnt really rules abuse, but its kinda taking the rules for a ride.

therefore anyone trying to cast the dreaded 13th (why do skaven even have this spell?) must roll at least 5 dice unless they have some bonus to their casting.

There are topics like this all over the rulebook with things like charge ranges on fear causing units and "accidentally" overguessing your stone thrower target and hitting a dragon some 40" away on another table behind a forest. All of those are addresed in due order by way of FAQ or angry rulesboy phonecall, Magic casting is the same to everyone in the FL panhandle and i hope somewhere people might see that just up and killing 4d6 models a turn has a built in balance in there somewhere

Sorry buddy but your gonna have to one dice the ratbreath if your gonna cast that at me this turn!

Lastly, next time anybody starts messing with your games in an event just grab a judge first and burn the friendless bastard on sportsmanship.

I couldn't disagree more...Irresistable Force will successfully cast the spell regardless of the actual total of the dice. This is not rules abuse or taking the rules for a ride. It is flat out what the rules say.

The Dark Elf FAQ only deals with if you couldn't possibly get the spell off (IE a 1 die cast on a spell that needs a 7+).

simply gotta agree to disagree. On one hand Irresistable force automatically goes off, on the other hand you must throw enough dice to actually cast the spell.
in most cases i suppose it will come to a dice off for rules conflict, but if you show up in the panhandle (doubtful since we only really have one event every year) plan to be called on it and ruled against by more than 2 local rulesboyz.

Yes, you do have to throw enough dice to actually cast the spell. However, 2 dice will work for any spell, as double sixes will get the spell off.

This is not a grey area that needs to be diced off. If my opponent tried telling me that a spell didn't succeed even though I rolled irresistable, I would hit thier sports score for that.

infamousxiii wrote:simply gotta agree to disagree. On one hand Irresistable force automatically goes off

That bit is in the rules, and therefore is as far as you need to go.

infamousxiii wrote:, on the other hand you must throw enough dice to actually cast the spell.

That bit you (and your area) has flat out *made up* out of whole cloth. By definition if the spell has gone off due to irresistable force you HAVE thrown enoguh dice to cast the spell - that is in the rules for IF!

The Dark Elf FAQ only confirms that *they* must throw enough dice at the spell to cast it - i.e. on a 7+ spell you need 2 dice. You never *need* more than 2 dice, as IF wil always cast it.

Your area is entirely, 100%, completely and utterly wrong on this ruling.

infamousxiii wrote:in most cases i suppose it will come to a dice off for rules conflict, but if you show up in the panhandle (doubtful since we only really have one event every year) plan to be called on it and ruled against by more than 2 local rulesboyz.

I would hope that your "rulesboyz" would actually follow the rules, and therefore being shown the relevant rules would change their mind. However, it sounds like they are in fact "houserulesboyz", playing househammer.

infamousxiii wrote:you must throw enough dice to actually cast the spell.

How is casting a spell with IF not "actually casting" the spell? Sure seems cast to me. As has been pointed out, there's more risk to the caster in this case- as you're more likely to miscast than to hit IF. I wouldn't have any problem with it at all.

RZ

P.S. You in Fort Walton Beach maybe? I played there for a while several years ago.

Hey, angry nosferatu guy "That bit you (and your area) has flat out *made up* out of whole cloth."

As my original post here mentioned, the ruling that you must throw enough dice at a spell to actually hardcast it is on the GW website in the dark elf FAQ.

at least read all of my post if your gonna flame me because several people see the rule differently

If i had to paint a picture of you it would look at lot like a soccer hooligan coming home after a hard day of eating glass and small animals only to find people thousands of miles away think differently.

Actually, it is made up, as the FAQ only talks about using a 1 die cast where it is impossible to get irresistable force.

HA! Sure enough. I coulda sworn that was worded very differently in a copy i printed out for our coastal assault convention down here.

I wonder if i still have that copy with me somewhere, oh well. Point to you skaven players(s), continue killing 4d6 models a turn.

infamousxiii wrote:Hey, angry nosferatu guy "That bit you (and your area) has flat out *made up* out of whole cloth."

Yes, you have made it up, and I explained why.

infamousxiii wrote:As my original post here mentioned, the ruling that you must throw enough dice at a spell to actually hardcast it is on the GW website in the dark elf FAQ.

Wrong, reread the FAQ. Note that it states you must roll enough dice to have a *chance* of casting. Can you cast successfully on IF? Yes. Then 2 dice *can* cast every spell in the game.

Done. Sorted. That's it.

infamousxiii wrote:at least read all of my post if your gonna flame me because several people see the rule differently

I had read your entire post, hence my response. The DE FAQ does not say what you think it says, reread it.

infamousxiii wrote:If i had to paint a picture of you it would look at lot like a soccer hooligan coming home after a hard day of eating glass and small animals only to find people thousands of miles away think differently.

And if I had to paint a picture of you it would be of a guy smug that the local area plays it his way, and that everyone else plays it wrong. Actually your area HAS made it up out of whole cloth, as the FAQ does not state what you have said it does. Inaccurate readings are the death of rules conversations.

Reread the FAQ, realise your error, and talk to your local "houserulezboyz" to get them to change their incorrect ruling.

Going to chime in here about question #4

One of the main book FAQs says that if in the coarse of wheeling into a unit during your free wheel you touch another enemy unit you count as charging both.

If the offensive unit was a friendly one you fudge things a little and move the units until they are aligned properly. Generally this involves sliding away from the offensive unit.

Actually it only states that in an Appendix to the FAQ part 1, and states these are *optional* rules that need agrement from both parties to use before the game.

It is the same Appendix that uses the abhorrence known as sliding.

@angry nosferatu man

i already said i was mistaken, you went through a lot of words to tell me i was wrong...after i posted my mistake.

If i had to paint another picture of you, it would be a guy all alone on game nights because nobody wants to put up with your poor sportsmanship.

gg, you win and have fun posting your last word.

::topaz out::

Infamousxiii - ah right, didnt notice your response given i was actually writing the post at the time....sigh.

You also have absolutely no idea how I play in real life. debates on a *rules forum* about *rules* where you correct someone about the *rules* has nothing to do with real life. You do realise the difference dont you?

Bye bye, have fun.

No need for anyone to make it personal, folks.

While maybe Nosferatu1001 could have been a bit more gentle and friendly in making his points, infamousxiii, you did come into the thread and contradict everyone based on your local house rules without checking the FAQ first. That's generally a recipe for error, when you're having a rules discussion. Please bear in mind also that the way someone debates/discusses rules on a forum like this is not necessarily how they play in real life. In real life, most of us are more happy to keep things friendly and brief and roll-off if we don't have the rule handy. Here on the internet, we've got the time to pull up the FAQ, hash it out and look at the issue in detail.

Neither of you needed to bring personal characterizations into the discussion (or even funny pictures of Vinnie Jones). Please don't do that again.

-The Mgmt.

PS: Okay, the Vinnie Jones pics are okay, but not when used as a comparison to other posters.

Mannahnin wrote:
PS: Okay, the Vinnie Jones pics are okay

Had me worried there for a second!

Hawkins - had a talk with some guys at our local store the other night on kind of the same issues that you had at your tournament. This is just my personal observations, but one of the reasons that I enjoy playing WH Fantasy over 40k is a general difference in the attitude people have in playing style. 40K seems to be more totalitarian and cutthroat than Fantasy - leads to more arguments and people getting all upset over what goes on in the game. I just can't see myself getting so worked up over a GAME - even when it's expensive to put together, paying for travel to tournaments, taking the time to paint the armies - it's a freaking GAME.

I do think though, that when disputes come up or people start getting stupid, it's best to call the rules judges over to have them settle it. That way it doesn't become personal and you can continue on with the game. There are still some people at tournaments that I simply won't play - I know how they act and how they play and I've just written them off as someone whom I'm not going to get my blood pressure up about.

For all the folks newer to the forum on rules stuff, there are generally a couple of posters who know what they're talking about and I usually take their word as gospel - Nosferatu101 and Skyth are some of them. Every now and then may disagree with them, but they generally know what the heck they are talking about and back up their observations with rulesbook quotes and logic. Arguing and getting personal doesn't really help your case.

Im sorry. i wanst arguing against what either of them had to say. i actualy agree with both of them, and Nos on rules is pretty accurate as well yes. this post was to blow off some steam and get some freedback regarding the 2 rules mentioned.
one thing i have failed to mention is that the person i had the altercation with is someone whom i have concidered an enemy for a while, we down and out hate eachother., his whole purpose in interfering was to get just the reaction out of me that he got. stupid as it is i fell for it. and i did call over the judges, it took 2 to calm the situation and down enough for me to stop yelling, and afterwards the. head orgainizer.

Mention on not showing up the fallowing day was ok. we have a few guys that act as stand ins if you cant or wont show. i know the person whom played in my place, my team wasnt left out in the cold.and as we had uneven teams, we knew we were sitting out the last game anyway.

i feel your pain on the id-10-t coming into your game. i HATE it when someone who im not playing interjects and starts giving advice to me or my oponent. forget it if he even tries to move models or throw dice... thats calling for a major judge/moderater intervention. otherwise, forgetting to mention your unit causes fear, etc and ask for the checks does happen. if you forget and go onto the next phase usually i say its done. sorry you forgot, we will remember it next time. mainly being becuase not every player knows every rule for every unit in every army. got enough of a time rembering your own, let alone some other players. if your still in the same phase, then i would say ok, redo everything from the point of the declared charge (for that unit only) wich would allow you to make a diffrent choice on your charge reaction, but otherwise if he forgot, nope sorry, we will make sure for next round. otherwise it throws too much wackiness into the mix. as for the casting, im pretty sure that if you roll 2 "6" on a cast its IF, and auto casts. regardless of actual required dice. since you cant get double "6" on a single dice, no IF on a 1 dice cast roll. so yes, he can throw just 2 or 3 or 4 dice on the 13th spell, double 6 will IF, otherwise it fails and or miscasts. the DE faq states that you cant throw 1 dice at a 7+ spell, because you cant IF it, and its not enough to cast the spell. (unless you have a casting bonus or something) otherwise feel free to only throw 2 or 3 dice at your big difficult spell. chances are you wont cast it, or youll miscast, or if you DO manage an IF, thats what dispel scrolls are for.

DarthSpader wrote:or if you DO manage an IF, thats what dispel scrolls are for.

Um, no. Irresistable is irresistable, dude.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:or if you DO manage an IF, thats what dispel scrolls are for.

Um, no. Irresistable is irresistable, dude.

yeah, only way to counter an if is with something that would cause doubles to be counted as a miscast like a Ring of Hotek or Pandemonium from the Lore of Tzeentch

lol then i guess i been playing wrong... weird that no one ever mentioned IF cant be scrolled before... live and learn. but in any case i stand by the rest of my points...(hoping they are, at least valid....or i looks like quite da fool)

The thing with going back because people 'forgot' the check for manditory panic tests came about because it was abused. a few people were using it to buff the combat phase. or so one of the guys that helped modify the rule said the other day.
here is the situation. a person forces a panic on a unit in the shooting phase, forgets to call for a panic test and moves on (the opponent may have forgotten as well). in the combat phase he rolls his first and most important combat, and glances at the dice rolling them on his side of the table ina way that the opponent cant redily see them. if its a great result, he rolls for wounds after the oppont finally sees the to hit result. if the to wounds roll is a pats, he immidiately pick up the dice quickly and declares that a panic test was forgotten and we must go back and resolve it. he then conventiantly forgets what was rolled in the combat phase and has to do it all over again, thus trying for a better result.....

Can you see where this is going? a few people were called on it, and afte a few heated discussions it came about that your opponent is responsible for remembring the panic compulsry tests he forces you to make and that there is no going back. so far this modification of th rule has done wonders and the game runs much smoother.