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Per Yak's suggestion, posting here instead of the INAT thread.

Basically, since it has been determined that the Spirit Leech works against embarked troops in their transport for a variety of reasons, the question arises. Does the same apply to the explosion from a Destroyed-Exploded result on a vehicle? Seems to have the same parameters as the SL. IE models in range by way of the transport hull being in range, not a shooting/psychic power, doesn't need LOS, etc.

Edit: corrected spelling

Well, I suppose that I disagree with the INAT ruling and this also falls along very similar lines, I'd think explosions would also not affect troops inside vehicles.

The rule specifies "models in range".

Right, and the INAT Spirit Leech ruling basically declares that if the transport is in range, then all embarked models are in range................

A vehicle explosion affects all embarked models found to be within D6" of the exploding vehicle.

An observer not distracted by other concerns may notice that vehicle explosions measure to models rather than units, and GW has to this date failed to produce rules enabling measurement of effects and rules to individual embarked models. In fact, they went so far as to put an answer in the main rulebook FAQ eliminating the possibility of psychic powers targeting embarked units just so they could avoid the issue.

Can you find a better straw man?

Um, wait a minute, WHY does having one vehicle exploding next to another cause issues with embarked troops? The explosion won't even glance the armor of the other vehicle. And having units inside the transport get hurt doesn't make sense, how does the explosion go through?!

don_mondo wrote:Right, and the INAT Spirit Leech ruling basically declares that if the transport is in range, then all embarked models are in range................

That is not what the INAT ruling, or the RAW, says. Models and Units are entirely different beasts in this case.
See Solkans post.

Shouldn't think so, no.

In this instance the unit is defined by being comprised of models. No models, no unit. How are you arguing that the unit is in range but some how none of the models that define the unit are? Please... Explain.

solkan wrote:A vehicle explosion affects all embarked models found to be within D6" of the exploding vehicle.

An observer not distracted by other concerns may notice that vehicle explosions measure to models rather than units, and GW has to this date failed to produce rules enabling measurement of effects and rules to individual embarked models. In fact, they went so far as to put an answer in the main rulebook FAQ eliminating the possibility of psychic powers targeting embarked units just so they could avoid the issue.

Can you find a better straw man?

And the exploding vehicle is not a psychic power, is it? So that doesn't apply.

And as Chris already pointed out, does the "unit" not consist of "models"? Measure to a model, you've measured to the unit, and to measure to the unit, you must measure to a model.

This is pointless and i am sure has NEVER come up in ANY game of 40k to date.

-You can't just take rulings meant for The Doom of Malan'tai and skew it towards vehicle explosions just because of how the ruling for spirit leech was worded.

Neither had the Doom/Spirit Leech, until now. Since it has now come up, what are all the extensions of that ruling? Kind of like all the questions that are being raised now that GW has finally made a call on Deffrollas. Lots of questions being raised about 'what if' based on that initial ruling.
The explosion has the same rules parameters as the Spirit Leech. So, does it also affect embarked units?

If Leech applies, then the explosion applies................

I still see no way, how is an explosion from the outside going to penetrate the armor of the vehicle and kill models that are inside the vehicle? There is no way and i'm pretty sure they're trying to keep things as real as possible and having the spirit leech affect units in transports seems real since he's drawing their spirits towards him and not actually aiming at them, its just an area of effect spirit suck and vehicle explosions can't suck people's souls out of a vehicle.

Spirit Leech - Sucks the spirits towards the Doom of Malan'tai which is why it's called a Spirit Leech. If you believe anything about souls then you can agree that they arn't represented in the physical world and can float THROUGH objects.

Explosions - EXPLODE, the damage is done where the explosion happened, explosions don't pass through objects unless it penetrates them. Seeing as a strength 3 hit isn't going to even glance any vehicle I think its safe to assume that the models inside will not be harmed in any way.

don_mondo wrote:Right, and the INAT Spirit Leech ruling basically declares that if the transport is in range, then all embarked models are in range................

That is not what we have ruled...the opposite actually.

1) Spirit Leech affects all units within a certain range, therefore all units within this range are affected.
2) The rules for embarked units specifies that for ranges involving the embarked unit you measure to and from the vehicle's hull.
3) Ergo, when checking range for Spirit Leech if a transport vehicle with an embarked unit on it is found to be in range then by the rules the embarked unit is indeed in range.



In the case of an exploding vehicle:

1) Models within a certain range are affected by the blast.
2) Models in an embarked unit are not on the table and therefore no models are found to be within the specified range.
3) Ergo, when a vehicle explodes, embarked models are never within the specified range (even though their unit technically is).

Thank you Yakface.

OK, so how is the unit consisiting of models within range but the models making up the unit aren't? They're one and the same. From page 3: "In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units." and "A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model," Units consist of models, models make up units. Only attacks that are able to specifiy a specific model (Mind War, Vindicare, initial placement of a blast marker, etc) measure to a specific model. Otherwise, when "targeting" or measuring to a unit, you measure to the neasrest model, right?

And if the models of a unit are not on the table and not in range, then Spirit Leech can't affect them either, as none of the models that make up the unit are in range. (technically). The unit/models are either on the table and in range or off the table and out of range. Can't have it both ways. Yes, it's silly, but IMO so is the Spirit Leech answer that prompted this question.................

don_mondo wrote:OK, so how is the unit consisiting of models within range but the models making up the unit aren't? They're one and the same. Units consist of models, models make up units. Only attacks that are able to specifiy a specific model (Mind War, Vindicare, initial placement of a blast marker, etc) measure to a specific model. Otherwise, when "targeting" or measuring to a unit, you measure to the neasrest model, right?

And if the models of a unit are not on the table and not in range, then Spirit Leech can't affect them either, as none of the models that make up the unit are in range. (technically). The unit/models are either on the table and in range or off the table and out of range. Can't have it both ways. Yes, it's silly, but IMO so is the Spirit Leech answer that prompted this question.................

Except, you can't say "oh I measured to that unit and it was in range so all models are in range", you can't use the range to a unit to determine the location of the models in any way, and there is a specific rule allowing measuring to a vehicles hull to locate an embarked unit EVEN THOUGH the models aren't on the table.

It works exactly how you are claiming it can't.

I agree with Don Mondo here.

Yak, your explaination seems self defeating, as Mondo has pointed out, how can SL work but nothing else? It looks like a double standard and a poor ruling for the INAT FAQ.

Drunkspleen wrote:

don_mondo wrote:OK, so how is the unit consisiting of models within range but the models making up the unit aren't? They're one and the same. Units consist of models, models make up units. Only attacks that are able to specifiy a specific model (Mind War, Vindicare, initial placement of a blast marker, etc) measure to a specific model. Otherwise, when "targeting" or measuring to a unit, you measure to the neasrest model, right?

And if the models of a unit are not on the table and not in range, then Spirit Leech can't affect them either, as none of the models that make up the unit are in range. (technically). The unit/models are either on the table and in range or off the table and out of range. Can't have it both ways. Yes, it's silly, but IMO so is the Spirit Leech answer that prompted this question.................

Except, you can't say "oh I measured to that unit and it was in range so all models are in range", you can't use the range to a unit to determine the location of the models in any way, and there is a specific rule allowing measuring to a vehicles hull to locate an embarked unit EVEN THOUGH the models aren't on the table.

It works exactly how you are claiming it can't.

Yet that's what the Spirit Leech ruling is indeed saying.....................

don_mondo wrote:
Yet that's what the Spirit Leech ruling is indeed saying.....................

No, now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Spirit Leech measures to units, not models. That is the entire point.
The person who wrote the ruling just told you that that is what the ruling says. The situations are entirely different.

Models are units, units are models. That's the whole point.

And pardon me if I disagree with Yak as to whether unit and model means one and the same, as the rulebook seems to say on page 3.................

don_mondo wrote:NModels are units, units are models. That's the whole point.

Your point is not supported by the rules at all. Measuring to a unit is not the same as measuring to all of the models in that unit. You cannot measure to the individual models in an embarked unit, only to the unit. That is all that the rules, and the ruling, allow.

don_mondo wrote:Models are units, units are models. That's the whole point.

And pardon me if I disagree with Yak as to whether unit and model means one and the same, as the rulebook seems to say on page 3.................

Don,

A unit is comprised of its models, but just because a unit is in range of something doesn't necessarily mean all the models are. Yes, normally at least one model has to be in range of something for the 'unit' to be in range, but in this case the embarked rules tell us how to measure range to and from the unit in lieu of the models being on the board.

But just because a unit is considered in range in no way means that every model in the unit is also in range...that isn't ever true. A unit is normally in range of something when at least one model is, but the individual models can still be out of range of something that specifically affects individual models. So yeah, if the explosion rule asked if a UNIT was in range it would definitely be an issue, but in this case it does specify individual models in the unit, none of which are actually in range because they are not on the table.

I don't agree with the DoM INAT ruling on this one so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Wouldn't that depend on whether or not the vehicle is open or close topped? How are the occupants of a Land Raider going to get hit by shrapnel with all the hatches closed? If I were to try to pull this on someone I'd hope he would tell me the occupants of said nearby vehicle ran to the corner out of scatter range and are thereby unaffected.

Sometimes I think we try to read too much into the rules. Serioulsy where is common sense when these questions come up? I know that how the rules are worded this may be interprted to be possible but come on.

So if I'm shooting at a "unit", how many "models" have to be in range for me to be able to kill all of the models in the unit.......................?

I agree that specific models in a unit can indeed be out of range of something that affects specific models. Can't mind war the sgt if he's out of range but one model of his unit is. But in the case of an embarked unit, isn't the entire unit (ie all of it's models) considered to be in range if the hull of the vehicle is in range. So if we are going to say that non-shooting/non-psychic area of affect abilities can damage embarked units because the hull of their transport is in range, then we should say that for all of them. Or conversely, none of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I don't agree with the DoM INAT ruling on this one so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Wouldn't that depend on whether or not the vehicle is open or close topped? How are the occupants of a Land Raider going to get hit by shrapnel with all the hatches closed? If I were to try to pull this on someone I'd hope he would tell me the occupants of said nearby vehicle ran to the corner out of scatter range and are thereby unaffected.

Sometimes I think we try to read too much into the rules. Serioulsy where is common sense when these questions come up? I know that how the rules are worded this may be interprted to be possible but come on.

I don't agree with it either........

And couldn't the same thing be said for Spirit Leech, hey, they're all running to the back corner so they're not in range, or it only clipped the right front bumper, nobody sits there. But the ruling has been made that if it touches the transport, it touches every model in the embarked unit. So which is right, that an explosion does affect an embarked unit or that spirit leech does not affect an embarked unit?

Thanks Yak for showing the difference.

However, let me get this straight. The Doom's SL works on embarked units because it specifies unit, not model.

Don Mondo's example of a vehicle exploding does not because it specifies models in range.

Models in a vehicle are not on the table, so they can not be measured to. But, if units are comprised of models they can not be measured to either as the unit is not on the table.

But, if the main rule book specifies that a unit in a vehicle measures from the hull of the vehicle, than that unit can make measurements, but not its individual models in said unit?

So a Necron Monoliths Flux arc doesnt work on embarked models as it says all unit with a model within 12"... As the model part makes it defunct, but if it simply said all units within 12" then it would work on embarked troops?

Njal's Lord of Tempest in game result of 7+ states "at the end of Njal's shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5" so since models are not specified units in transports are hit?

Well, the Necron Monolith doesn't work because the target has to be a legitimate target for a shooting attack. No LOS (high wall between), can't shoot at them even if they're only 3" away. And since you cannot shoot at a unit in a transport................... Something about not having LOS to at least one model in the target unit.

BTW:
+TYR.58B.02 – Q: Can cover saves be taken against wounds caused by „Spirit Leech‟, especially in the case of embarked models?
A: Yes they can, check line of sight from the Doom of Malan‟tai model to see if the affected unit(s) are in cover or not. Embarked units always count as in cover for this purpose and so will get a „4+‟ cover save, although they cannot „[go] to ground‟ while embarked [clarification].

don_mondo wrote:
BTW:
+TYR.58B.02 – Q: Can cover saves be taken against wounds caused by „Spirit Leech‟, especially in the case of embarked models?
A: Yes they can, check line of sight from the Doom of Malan‟tai model to see if the affected unit(s) are in cover or not. Embarked units always count as in cover for this purpose and so will get a „4+‟ cover save, although they cannot „[go] to ground‟ while embarked [clarification].

Is there a reason that you bolded models, as if it helped your point? Models take saves, not units, and the ruling specifies that the unit must be in cover.

don_mondo wrote:
So if we are going to say that non-shooting/non-psychic area of affect abilities can damage embarked units because the hull of their transport is in range, then we should say that for all of them. Or conversely, none of them.

No, we don't, as the rules specifically allow a way to handle one subset of the effects and give no way to initiate another. You claiming that they are the same does not make them the same or change the rules.

Actually, I bolded two words. First word "embarked", second word "models". Put them together and what have you got (wasn't that a Disney song?), you've got a INAT ruling talking about "embarked models", but wait, I thought the models weren't embarked, only the unit was embarked................... Because the models aren't on the table? Sorry, one or the other, one or the other.

And those rules are?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I don't agree with the DoM INAT ruling on this one so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Wouldn't that depend on whether or not the vehicle is open or close topped?

No, the rules for transports tell you to remove the models from the table, players sometimes leave models in open topped transports to help it look nicer, but they function no differently and by RAW, the models shouldn't be in the back of the transport.