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imweasel wrote:No. Just because I can wound other models that are not in 'rapid fire' range, as one example that was given, it doesn't mean the whole unit is in range. The shooting rules are different than the vehicle explosion rules.

You're joking right? You are shooting the unit not each model, if a model is in range the whole unit is in range. How else would you be able to remove models that are NOT in rapid fire range? If the unit doesn't represent every model it is comprised of how can you remove models? They wouldn't be related, shooting the unit wouldn't effect the models.

imweasel wrote:
Completely incorrect that if something effects model B, all 6 models are effected. There are several rules where this is not the case, with vehicle explosions being one of them.

You're obviously a little confused.

A = 3
B = 4
C = A

What is C + B = ?
The answer is 7.

Think of the units as the letters representing their respective # of models and units.
In my example if the vehicle model did not represent the unit you would be right but because it does, it also represents the models in the unit. C = A = 3

If I have something that effects the unit... I don't know, say Eldar "Doom"... you mean to tell me each model in that unit isn't effected? That doesn't hold true in every instance of playing 40k I've experienced.

So Yak what was the justification for 4+ cover save for embarked units versus Spirit Leech?

G

paidinfull wrote:

imweasel wrote:No. Just because I can wound other models that are not in 'rapid fire' range, as one example that was given, it doesn't mean the whole unit is in range. The shooting rules are different than the vehicle explosion rules.

You're joking right? You are shooting the unit not each model, if a model is in range the whole unit is in range. How else would you be able to remove models that are NOT in rapid fire range? If the unit doesn't represent every model it is comprised of how can you remove models? They wouldn't be related, shooting the unit wouldn't effect the models.

I strongly recommend you re-read the rulebook a few times, you seem to seriously lack the understanding of models and units and when measuring to which is used for what purpose.

Although I assume it's futile I will try to explain it to you again (did anybody count how many times it has been tried during this thread?)

If you shoot you measure to a model in the unit you shoot at. The rules tell you that if one model is in range the whole unit can suffer wounds caused by the weapon, so you measure to a model to see if the unit counts as being within range.

Explosion says all models under the marker are affected, it does not say anything about unit. So the models in the unit that are not under the marker can not be hit, as an exception to the rules from shooting.

The rules for units in transporters gives you a way to measure to the unit, not to single models. Therefor, if you need to measure to individual models and not units within a certain area to see if they are affected you have no rule for it.

@paidinfull

I am not the one confused. You are trying to apply rules where the rules don't apply.

Green Blow Fly wrote:So Yak what was the justification for 4+ cover save for embarked units versus Spirit Leech?

G

Don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but my guess would be it's because they are transferring the shooting cover save to the unit.

Now why this would not work if the unit was outside the vehicle and had the vehicle between the Doom and them is beyond me. Maybe it would? I dunno.

Wish they would have just called this a Psychic power and cleared the whole damned mess up.

Nope, they are not effected. Location of model =/= location of unit. Here's why:


x x x x x---------11.99"--------y

a unit x and a model y are 11.99" apart.


model y is within 12 inches of unit x. If y's power affects a UNIT, then unit x and all the models that make up the unit is in range. There are rules in the bgb for measuring to embarked units

now, if y's power affects MODELS, then only the leading model is in range of y, and therefore only that x is effected. if unit x is embarked, there are no rules for determining exactly which model is in range. To say that we measure to the hull to determine model position is incorrect, as if we measure to a single position we are saying that all of the models are on top of one another.

Since we can't determine where in the transport the unit sits, we can't hit it at all.

The Green Git wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:So Yak what was the justification for 4+ cover save for embarked units versus Spirit Leech?

G

Don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but my guess would be it's because they are transferring the shooting cover save to the unit.

Now why this would not work if the unit was outside the vehicle and had the vehicle between the Doom and them is beyond me. Maybe it would? I dunno.

Wish they would have just called this a Psychic power and cleared the whole damned mess up.

I think that is what is going to happen since it would then be covered by the other FAQ. Simple and clear.

Green Blow Fly wrote:So Yak what was the justification for 4+ cover save for embarked units versus Spirit Leech?

G

Because the only full rules for converting wounds into saves into unsaved wounds into casualties are the shooting casualty rules.

The shooting casualty rules allow cover saves to be taken against wounds suffered by models, so in general (although not always possible) cover saves should typically apply to wounds except for situations where it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to do so. Again, it is impossible to be completely consistent on this matter because GW isn't. Sometimes they seem to act as though cover saves are the default unless they specify otherwise and in other situations they seem to act as if the reverse is true.

So when we're looking at a bizarre special attack like this we try to figure out if a cover save could theoretically be included against such an attack and if it can, then yes cover saves should apply.

The Green Git wrote:Don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but my guess would be it's because they are transferring the shooting cover save to the unit.

Now why this would not work if the unit was outside the vehicle and had the vehicle between the Doom and them is beyond me. Maybe it would? I dunno.

Wish they would have just called this a Psychic power and cleared the whole damned mess up.

Are you talking about us on the INAT ruling it a psychic power? Because if we did that it would mean the DoM would be unable to ever use its normal shooting pyshic attack (as models can only use one psychic power per turn unless specified otherwise), so ruling that way would represent a pretty major change in the DoM's abilities, and it would allow 'Spirit Leech' to be shut down by a psychic hood, etc, which is not how it currently behaves.


Now, GW could have made it a psychic power and allowed the model to use two powers in a turn...but they seem to be staying away from the 'always on' psychic powers now and just calling them 'special rules'. I think they're doing this because those types of powers raise serious questions when encountering other abilities that automatically nullify psychic powers...so its just easier to start turning any psychic power that is 'always on' into a special rule, and then you never need to worry about any kind of nullification.

Or they could say it "counts as a psyhic power" in regard to embarked models. If they specify how it counts as, then it wouldn't count as for psychic hoods or one power per turn.

Still too circuitous. How about "It cannot affect vehicles or models embarked in vehicles".

DONE.

Kinda like how they should really say "Boarding planks don't work on walkers" or "walkers get to strike back when something attempts to boarding plank them", etc.

But hey, they don't.

paidinfull wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Exactly, we are finally seeing eye to eye. The vehicle model is the model representing the unit in this case, and MODELS in range are effected, the fact that the vehicle is representing the unit makes no difference, because the other models in the unit are out of range.

Seems to me you misunderstand how "representing" works. A plastic space marine model represents an imaginary warrior. If something effects the plastic space marine model it is effecting the imaginary warrior. The argument is clear that if you are using the vehicle model to represent the unit you are also using the vehicle model to represent every model by inference.

You've completely missed my point.

Just like if you measure to a plastic space marine model to measure to the unit you are measuring to every model in that unit by inference?

I know that we aren't actually in agreement, I was having a little dig at what you said, that apparently wasn't clear enough.

Hi, I'm new here, but I would like to try a different tact.

I would argue that passengers are similar to the crew of a vehicle. For the SL to hurt the passengers but not the driver and gunner is not believable. Nothing more protects the crew over the passengers.

BRB pp63

"Vehicles never take Morale checks for any reason... Any occassional lapses that do occur are represented by crew shaken and stunned."

For example, a Callidus assassin's neural shredder is a leadership based area attack, similar to the SL (yes, I know the difference between Leadership and Morale tests). It can kill infantry in the open, but when they are inside a vehicle at best it can do a shaken or stunned... no wounds (iirc WH FAQ, Vehicle Damage Chart -4). The passengers are treated the same as the crew in that they cannot use firing points while shaken or stunned.

The SL only affects "non-vehicle enemy units." Tyranid pp58.
The SL cannot affect a vehicle's crew at all... not even a shaken result.

BRB pp66

Some vehicles can carry infantry... providing speed and protection."

Embarked units have the same level of protection as the crew (or are you saying Chronus can be killed by SL while the driver and tank are unharmed?). That is, the AV protects them until they disembark or the vehicle is destroyed; they do not take morale checks; etc.

While a unit is embarked they count as a vehicle unit (as they are a unit in a vehicle) and are immune to Spirit Leech. It does not matter if you can measure to the hull, and somehow justify the seating position of passengers, because the embarked unit is protected by the vehicle's armor. Any other kind of ruling creates more problems that it solves.

Ironscowl wrote:
For example, a Callidus assassin's neural shredder is a leadership based area attack, similar to the SL (yes, I know the difference between Leadership and Morale tests). It can kill infantry in the open, but when they are inside a vehicle at best it can do a shaken or stunned... no wounds (iirc WH FAQ, Vehicle Damage Chart -4). The passengers are treated the same as the crew in that they cannot use firing points while shaken or stunned.

Embarked units have the same level of protection as the crew (or are you saying Chronus can be killed by SL while the driver and tank are unharmed?). That is, the AV protects them until they disembark or the vehicle is destroyed; they do not take morale checks; etc.

While a unit is embarked they count as a vehicle unit (as they are a unit in a vehicle) and are immune to Spirit Leech. It does not matter if you can measure to the hull, and somehow justify the seating position of passengers, because the embarked unit is protected by the vehicle's armor. Any other kind of ruling creates more problems that it solves.

The last couple of sentences in your post is essentially the crux of your argument. You're saying that an embarked counts as a vehicle unit. Unfortunately the rules do not support that argument. The embarked unit is still a separate unit when embarked...the rules tell us that the embarked unit can still be measured to and from when embarked and the embarked unit is still allowed to fire as a completely separate unit from the vehicle it is embarked on.

In other words, all evidence points to the fact that the embarked unit is still a separate unit while embarked, just that its individual models are removed from the table.

When you bring up that passengers cannot fire from fire points when the vehicle has suffered a 'shaken'/'stunned' result, this is the reason they cannot do so. They are not the crew of the vehicle and if this rule was not in the rulebook then the passengers would be free to fire from the fire points even if the vehicle was shaken/stunned.

In other words, by the rules, the embarked unit is only subject to any additional rules for being embarked that are actually in the rulebook. I agree that the rules *should* give them specific levels of protection for being embarked, but they simply don't.


But as to your specific points, an embarked unit cannot be directly affected by a Callidus's Neural Shredder because it is a template weapon and none of the embarked unit's models will be under the template.

And Chronus as a model does not exist until his vehicle is destroyed and he successfully makes his escape rule. Before that he is simply a profile improvement for the vehicle.

don_mondo wrote:Per Yak's suggestion, posting here instead of the INAT thread.

Basically, since it has been determined that the Spirit Leech works against embarked troops in their transport for a variety of reasons, the question arises. Does the same apply to the explosion from a Destroyed-Exploded result on a vehicle? Seems to have the same parameters as the SL. IE models in range by way of the transport hull being in range, not a shooting/psychic power, doesn't need LOS, etc.

Edit: corrected spelling

Yes, it is technically possible, however, there are stark differences between the two; FYI, it has always been possible irrespective of the ruling of the SL. According to the RAW the SL effect permeates the hull because it affects all non-vehicle units within the radius, the explosion requires an armor penetration in order to have any effect on the embarked troops; that effect could only be if the second transport was destroyed by the explosion.

Spellbound wrote:Still too circuitous. How about "It cannot affect vehicles or models embarked in vehicles".

DONE.

Kinda like how they should really say "Boarding planks don't work on walkers" or "walkers get to strike back when something attempts to boarding plank them", etc.

But hey, they don't.

So they should arbitrarily change the rules you dont like?

Interesting.

SM Codex pp89

"Use the tank commander model of Chronus to represent this."

Therefore, Chronus is a model on the tank before the tank is destroyed.

Besides that, my argument is that it does not matter if you can measure to the unit. They are in a vehicle. SL cannot affect vehicles. Whether the crew and passengers are separate does not matter, the vehicle protects them both.

Much of your argument Yakface is a choice between two evils, and you chose one over the other because of the absurity defense. I find it absurd that SL affects passengers but not crew.

So, you say souls can be sucked through solid objects, and then you wonder if it somehow gets a cover save from solid objects? Either SL hits the crew and passengers and gives no cover, or they are all protected. I can't see any other argument being anything but absurd.

Ironscowl wrote:I can't see any other argument being anything but absurd.

The RAW supporting it entirely is absurd?

Ironscowl wrote:SM Codex pp89

"Use the tank commander model of Chronus to represent this."

Therefore, Chronus is a model on the tank before the tank is destroyed.

I suppose you could say Chronus is a model, but he doesn't have a unit.

@Gorkamorka: The RAW can be argued to measure to the unit, I am not challenging that point (others can and have done so). I am saying that whether you do that or not makes no difference. You are measuring to the hull of the vehicle. The vehicle's hull is impervious to SL. Therefore, the passengers inside are impervious to SL too. If the hull were not impervious to SL then crew members would have their souls sucked out too. But it does not since it only affects "non-vehicle enemy units."

Since the whole measuring to the hull thing is based on the assumption that SL ignores AV, I am challenging that assumption. Since Yak's decision was made based in part on the "absurdity defense" then I am challenging the logic used there too. Without either/both of those legs, then measuring to the hull to get at models inside does not apply. It is not that that RAW rule does not exist, but rather that it is inapplicable to this situation.

@Masterslowpoke: The Chronus example is merely an illustration of unnecessary unintended consequences caused by the overly complex application of rulings. In truth, Chronus has a model; he has a unit (the tank); but he does not have a profile ~yet~. He clearly has a wound to give when he gets out. If SL hits passengers, then Chronus can die too (but that's absurd).

So, if I can't measure to 'models' in a transport, does that mean I can't use a psychic hood to nullify powers if my librarian is inside a transport?

yakface wrote:SNIP
2) The rules for embarked units specifies that for ranges involving the embarked unit you measure to and from the vehicle's hull.
SNIP
2) Models in an embarked unit are not on the table and therefore no models are found to be within the specified range.

These two statements are mutually exclusive. I don't see how you can state from a RAW perspective that both apply in different cases.

Homer

P.S. Does this permit template weapons to affect the embarked unit?

Timmah wrote:So, if I can't measure to 'models' in a transport, does that mean I can't use a psychic hood to nullify powers if my librarian is inside a transport?

It's questionable, there's no rule for measuring to a single aspect of a unit in a vehicle, so a case could be made that it doesn't work.

However, the way I see it is, you can measure to a single aspect of a unit, as long as it doesn't call for a model.

So, "within 24 inches of the librarian" is fine, but if it were "within 24 inches of the librarian model" it would not be, as the model is not on the table.

Admittedly though, it's a gray area.

The Libarian is within 24" if the hull is, as distance to/from is measured to the hull and it never specifies the model - which wouldn't be on the board.

But as Spleen said, if you were trying to find the libarian (as it says to the libarian not 'his unit' or some other thing) it wouldn't work, I'd feel much more comfortable ruling on this if I owned the codex.

Homer S wrote:

yakface wrote:SNIP
2) The rules for embarked units specifies that for ranges involving the embarked unit you measure to and from the vehicle's hull.
SNIP
2) Models in an embarked unit are not on the table and therefore no models are found to be within the specified range.

These two statements are mutually exclusive. I don't see how you can state from a RAW perspective that both apply in different cases.

Homer

P.S. Does this permit template weapons to affect the embarked unit?

Simply read the rules...

Blast Rules:

Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at the blast marker from above - all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker are hit.

Doom of Malan'Tai SL Rules:

...every non-vehicle enemy unit within6' of the Doom of Malan'tai...

Destroyed - Explodes Rules:

...Flaming debris is scattered D6" from the vehicle, and models in range suffer a Strength 3, AP - hit.

Ironscowl said:

He clearly has a wound to give when he gets out. If SL hits passengers, then Chronus can die too (but that's absurd).

Why is this absurd? Is Chronus a member of a unit? Is that unit being affected by SL?


Ironscowl said:

Besides that, my argument is that it does not matter if you can measure to the unit. They are in a vehicle. SL cannot affect vehicles. Whether the crew and passengers are separate does not matter, the vehicle protects them both.

SL cannot affect vehicles for two reasons, one, because the SL rules state so; two, because vehicles do not have wounds. Chronus has a wound, the troops inside a transport have wounds... the vehicle is a member of the unit, you measure the distance from Doom to the unit, if the unit is within that range, then the unit makes a 3d6 test, if failed, that number of wounds are inflicted on that unit... Quite simple.

Embarking Rules:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit... this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

The driver of a tank does not have a wound... You're trying too hard to walk the line between abstraction and "What would happen if this were real". Just read the RAW and all will be well.

It is all about measuring to the unit, not to the models who are affected by Doom. Think of the green tide, if you have 30 orcs and only 1 model is in range of the Doom's SL, then the entire unit is affected... Same simple concept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Timmah wrote:So, if I can't measure to 'models' in a transport, does that mean I can't use a psychic hood to nullify powers if my librarian is inside a transport?

It's questionable, there's no rule for measuring to a single aspect of a unit in a vehicle, so a case could be made that it doesn't work.

However, the way I see it is, you can measure to a single aspect of a unit, as long as it doesn't call for a model.

So, "within 24 inches of the librarian" is fine, but if it were "within 24 inches of the librarian model" it would not be, as the model is not on the table.

Admittedly though, it's a gray area.

Its not a gray area at all, its quite clear, read the Embarking rule under "Transport Vehicles".

Ironscowl wrote:SM Codex pp89

"Use the tank commander model of Chronus to represent this."

Therefore, Chronus is a model on the tank before the tank is destroyed.

Besides that, my argument is that it does not matter if you can measure to the unit. They are in a vehicle. SL cannot affect vehicles. Whether the crew and passengers are separate does not matter, the vehicle protects them both.

Much of your argument Yakface is a choice between two evils, and you chose one over the other because of the absurity defense. I find it absurd that SL affects passengers but not crew.

So, you say souls can be sucked through solid objects, and then you wonder if it somehow gets a cover save from solid objects? Either SL hits the crew and passengers and gives no cover, or they are all protected. I can't see any other argument being anything but absurd.

It seems as though you have slightly misinterpreted the rantings of my uber-post, which isn't so surprising considering how long-winded it is.


There are two distinct things that I'm essentially discussing...one is the rules as written, and the other is how people in general tend to play the game.

When it comes to making a ruling for a tournament FAQ, we try to take into consideration how it seems players naturally play the game. The reason for this is if you create a ruling that goes against how most people play then you tend to create more arguing and game-stoppage then you solve with the ruling as all the people who haven't studied every nuance of the FAQ will naturally try to play a different way than what was ruled and those players who have read the FAQ will then have to pull the FAQ out (or call over a judge) to explain to the other player what the ruling is.

Instead, if you rule how most people already play, then those who have read the FAQ ahead of time will know what is going on already and those who haven't read the FAQ will simply play as they usually play and less arguments will ensue.

So in my long post, I was simply illustrating that in the case of many instances, the rules are written in a way that clearly seems to allow absurd situations to occur but players tend to naturally assume that if something is really, really, REALLY absurd in the rules that it *must* be wrong and they simply play the opposite way.

My point was that with Spirit Leech, unlike in the case of say, a nearby vehicle explosion, the situation does not carry the same level of absurdity, which is evidenced by the split of opinion you have on the Spirit Leech issue when compared to a vehicle exploding.

Even if an exploding vehicle affected all UNITS within a certain range, I am positive that if we took a poll on how people play the game regarding the issue, an overwhelming number of players would say that they play that an exploding vehicle couldn't affect embarked models on a nearby transport. Whereas in the case of Spirit Leech, players are quite split on the matter.

So my only point was that when it comes to making a ruling in the INAT FAQ, the situation with Spirit Leech is not the same as with other similar issues that players naturally choose to ignore holes in the rules due to the absurdity of the situation.

Now, when it comes to cover saves being taken against wounds caused by Spirit Leech, again, this is a complex issue with no clear right answer, but in general we believe that cover saves are granted in most cases unless specified otherwise.

And if you're asking me personally if I think it is absurd for a cover save to be taken against a Spirit Leech wound...not one bit. It makes perfect sense that it would be slightly harder to suck someone's life essence out through a wall than it would be if they were standing in the open.

So hopefully that helps to explain the disconnect you're feeling between the two areas I was discussing.

@visavismeyou

the vehicle is a member of the unit

As you say, the vehicle is a member of the unit. Therefore, it is a vehicle unit. SL cannot harm vehicle units. Which means SL cannot harm anything in that unit,including the embarked squad. Well, it's not quite that simple, but I won't get into that since it has little bearing on my argument (e.g., measuring to the hull is only necessary if transports provide no protection).

@yakface
Basically, your argument is that there are no rules for transports protecting embarked squads at all. But no one plays that way because it is absurd. Your exception for SL is because it is conceivable that souls can be sucked through solid objects. I understand why you might rule that way, but it's not strictly RAW; all of that is by convention. Which means the whole RAW-thing about measuring to the hull and therefore getting to the guys inside is not standing on stable footing... it is a house of cards. Which in itself is a good reason not to make this exception unless the special ability specifically says you can get at embarked units, which SL does not.

On the other hand, you think the material object does provide some kind of protection, and therefore a cover save might be warranted. It sounds like you are conflicted and trying to have it both ways. If the armor only provides partial protection then the crew would end up as shaken or stunned (like with the Neural Shredder). But the crew are completely immune.

My argument is that the transport does provide protection. Here is my another quote from the rulebook that says a transport provides protection (which makes my position the default and the ignore-armor-position the rules change).
BRB pp65

"Vehicle Types. Transport Vehicles. Transport vehicles are designed to carry infantry squads around the battlefield. They offer to the warriors either the protection of an armoured hull to shield them from anti-personnel fire..."

So, the armoured hull protects embarked units from enemy ranged attacks that would cause damage to infantry. SL may be an exotic form of anti-personnel fire, but it still fits. That is, you must deal with the AV before you can hurt the guys inside.

Unfortunately, what you just quoted is NOT a rule, but fluff.

In the fluff Space Marines kill everything, with one capable of killing a whole regiment of guard. In the rules? Not so much.

The point is the rules state you can measure to a *unit* that is embarked, even if you cannot measure to the models. Here "Unit" is the fully abstracted form (instead of the semi abstract you normally see) of the word.

Edit: oh, and the unit is never part of the vehicle - they remain 2 seperate units. If they were the same unit they would have to fire at the same target, always remain in coherency, etc.

Ironscowl wrote:
@yakface
Basically, your argument is that there are no rules for transports protecting embarked squads at all. But no one plays that way because it is absurd. Your exception for SL is because it is conceivable that souls can be sucked through solid objects. I understand why you might rule that way, but it's not strictly RAW; all of that is by convention. Which means the whole RAW-thing about measuring to the hull and therefore getting to the guys inside is not standing on stable footing... it is a house of cards. Which in itself is a good reason not to make this exception unless the special ability specifically says you can get at embarked units, which SL does not.

Incorrect. The exception for Spirit Leech is not because it is conceivable that souls could be sucked through solid objects. What I am saying is that most people choose to ignore the rules for stuff that clearly is absurd. When it comes to Spirit Leech, that same level of absurdity isn't necessarily present in every gamer's opinion, which is why we have a split in opinions on this very subject.

So because of that, we don't have the 'everybody plays it that way because any other way would be absurd' factor when it comes to Spirit Leech and because of that we felt we had to stick with what we thought the RULES actually say, which appears to us that Spirit Leech can be used to affect embarked units.


And you keep posting quotes from the rulebook, but none of those quotes tell you how the embarked unit would actually be protected in a vehicle.

@Nosferatu1001

Unfortunately, what you just quoted is NOT a rule, but fluff.

Believe it or not, I did consider whether this was fluff beore I posted. This quote is in the rules section (of the small rulebook, I don't have the BRB). iirc, there are no fluff stories in the rules section. It does not have the legalese sound of declaring measure x to do y. But neither does it have the fluffy tone of something like SM kill everything. The Vehicle section I quoted is the summary of what the vehicles do. When in doubt, use that.

Now, this is not quite true. To be more exact, they do have fluffy quotes in the rules section, but those are ALWAYS bracketed by a line above and below the quote; this is done to explicitly show when rules stop and fluff starts. Entries that are boxed are by-the-ways that you should know to help interpret the rules (such as the Vehicle section that I quoted). Typically, these are diagrams with examples of how the rule works. Note, this is separate from how section headings are treated (bracketed and all caps). They have strict formatting in the rules section and things like the size and caps of title fonts help distinguish which rule is a subset of another. If you don't believe me, go study how they setup the formatting in the rule book.

The point is the rules state you can measure to a *unit* that is embarked, even if you cannot measure to the models. Here "Unit" is the fully abstracted form (instead of the semi abstract you normally see) of the word.

Actually, I had considered this too. The transport is a Vehicle Unit, whereas the embarked troops are an Infantry unit. Their unit type does not change just by being embarked. So I happily yield this point since it is not integral to my point (which is the armored hull provides protection, which means measuring has no bearing). It was merely a subset of my argument that was pointing out how messy things can get with the spirit-ignores-armor ruling. Since, upon re-reading Yakface's post, he does acknowledge those difficulties, I feel it is not necessary to belabor that subset of my reasoning any further.

@Yakface:

Incorrect. The exception for Spirit Leech is not because it is conceivable that souls could be sucked through solid objects. What I am saying is that most people choose to ignore the rules for stuff that clearly is absurd. When it comes to Spirit Leech, that same level of absurdity isn't necessarily present in every gamer's opinion, which is why we have a split in opinions on this very subject.

It does not matter whether it is because it is conceivable or because the bulk of gamers ignore absurdities, the point there is that it is not a RAW reasoning. So, if the RAW (measure to hull) is based on not-RAW (bulk of gamer's opinion), then attacking the not-RAW foundation can topple whatever you pile on top. That is not to say that the RAW itself is invalidated, but the application of it to this situation is. This is why it does not matter whether you measure to the hull since it cannot penetrate the armored hull in the first place.

And you keep posting quotes from the rulebook, but none of those quotes tell you how the embarked unit would actually be protected in a vehicle.

It is a blanket statement in the rules section (as stated above in my comments about formatting) that the armored hull gives protection. That is, the designers did not envision anything that would merely ignore AV and get at passengers. The transport provides protection [and speed], which is the whole reason to get transports in the first place. To bypass this protection, a specific rule must give specific permission to ignore the armored hull. It clears up those other questions, like does a Vehicle Destroyed affect embarked troops in a nearby transport (no); or, can I stick my flamer into a firing point and fry the passengers (no, only on buildings as per specific exception); or, does a neural shredder hurt passengers (no wounds, only shaken/stunned as per specific exception).

BTW, Yakface I appreciate the civilised and in-depth debate we are having.

Ironscowl wrote:
@Yakface:

Incorrect. The exception for Spirit Leech is not because it is conceivable that souls could be sucked through solid objects. What I am saying is that most people choose to ignore the rules for stuff that clearly is absurd. When it comes to Spirit Leech, that same level of absurdity isn't necessarily present in every gamer's opinion, which is why we have a split in opinions on this very subject.

It does not matter whether it is because it is conceivable or because the bulk of gamers ignore absurdities, the point there is that it is not a RAW reasoning. So, if the RAW (measure to hull) is based on not-RAW (bulk of gamer's opinion), then attacking the not-RAW foundation can topple whatever you pile on top. That is not to say that the RAW itself is invalidated, but the application of it to this situation is. This is why it does not matter whether you measure to the hull since it cannot penetrate the armored hull in the first place.

And you keep posting quotes from the rulebook, but none of those quotes tell you how the embarked unit would actually be protected in a vehicle.

It is a blanket statement in the rules section (as stated above in my comments about formatting) that the armored hull gives protection. That is, the designers did not envision anything that would merely ignore AV and get at passengers. The transport provides protection [and speed], which is the whole reason to get transports in the first place. To bypass this protection, a specific rule must give specific permission to ignore the armored hull. It clears up those other questions, like does a Vehicle Destroyed affect embarked troops in a nearby transport (no); or, can I stick my flamer into a firing point and fry the passengers (no, only on buildings as per specific exception); or, does a neural shredder hurt passengers (no wounds, only shaken/stunned as per specific exception).

BTW, Yakface I appreciate the civilised and in-depth debate we are having.

But the rules as written do NOT disallow Spirit Leech from affecting the passengers...in fact the opposite is true.


P1) Spirit Leech affects all units within its (rolled) range.
P2) Embarked units are a unit.
P3) Range to the embarked unit is measured to the vehicle's hull (pg 66).

C1) Therefore, Spirit Leech affects embarked units if the hull of their transport vehicle is found to be within range.


Right there is a logically sound argument of why Spirit Leech affects embarked units. In order to topple that argument you have to be able to logically disprove one the premises or show a logically sound argument in the rules as to why embarked units would not be affected.

You keep quoting the fact a quote from the rules saying that vehicle offer protection. Okay great, but what does that *mean* in game terms? Absolutely nothing. I'm sure I could find quotes in codices saying that Space Marines derive protection from their armor...but in game terms that is expressed by giving the marines a 3+ armor save.

So yes, vehicles may offer "protection" but unless we have some sort of expressed game application in the rules of what that protection means, the statement itself is meaningless.

There is absolutely no way you can construct a logically sound argument that embarked models actually derive any protection from being embarked on a transport. The rules may mention that they are protected, but there is absolutely no reference to what that protection IS.

In short, claiming that embarked units are somehow immune to damage and/or Spirit Leech because the rules mention that they derive protection from their transport is not an argument that can be logically supported.