(voters in) Five European states back burka ban

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**Frazzled**

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e0c0e732-254d-11df-9cdb-00144feab49a.html

Five European states back burka ban
By James Blitz

Published: March 1 2010 16:54 | Last updated: March 1 2010 16:54

Cultural divide: women of different faiths in a street in Blackburn, Lancashire

More than half of voters in four other major European states back a push by France’s Nicolas Sarkozy to ban women from wearing the burka, according to an opinion poll for the Financial Times.

EDITOR’S CHOICE
‘Why not ban pornography instead?’ - Mar-01France stops short of full ban on burka - Jan-26Halal burgers raise French hackles - Feb-19As Mr Sarkozy presses ahead with plans to ban the wearing of the burka in public places, the FT’s latest Harris poll shows the move is not just strongly supported in France, but wins enthusiastic backing in the UK, Italy, Spain and Germany.

The poll shows some 70 per cent of respondents in France said they supported plans to forbid the wearing of the garment which covers the female body from head to toe. There was similar sentiment in Spain and Italy, where 65 per cent and 63 per cent respectively favoured a ban

The strength of feeling in the UK and Germany may seem particularly surprising. Britain has a strong liberal tradition that respects an individual’s right to full expression of religious views. But here, some 57 per cent of people still favoured a ban. In Germany, which is also reluctant to clamp down in minority rights, some 50 per cent favoured a ban.

“This poll shows that the number of people in France opposed to the burka is going up and that is the product of debate on burka and national identity,” said Professor Patrick Weil, an expert on national identity at the University of Paris-Sorbonne. “But the figure is clearly going up in other countries in Europe like the UK as well, and that reflects the growing concern that there is about this issue in some parts of Europe.”

In the US, concerns about the issue are far less strong than in Europe. Just 33 per cent of Americans surveyed by Harris supported a ban, a far lower figure than the 44 per cent who said they supported it.

In Europe, while opposition to the burka was strong, few respondents said they were prepared to support the ban as part of a wider drive towards secularism in their country.

Asked if they would support the burka ban if it were accompanied by a clampdown on wearing all religious icons such as the Christian crucifix and the Jewish cappel, only 22 per cent of French people said they supported such a move. In Britain, just 9 per cent of people said they would back such a move.

Harris also looked at the issue of whether the public supported the introduction of scanners at airports that xray the full body. In the aftermath of the failed Christmas day al-Qaeda attack on Detroit, a number of states have moved to introduce such scanners, a policy that has raised objections from some groups on privacy grounds.

More than half of people in the US and all but one of the four European states surveyed were in favour of the introduction of body scanners. Only in Spain was there a little less enthusiasm for the move, with 46 per cent in favour of the scanners and 23 per cent against.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. You may share using our article tools. Please don't cut articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

**Kanluwen**

Good on them.

**Kilkrazy**

I am interested to know on what grounds any western state could legally issue a blanket ban on the wearing of the burkha or any religious symbol whether voluntary or not.

**dogma**

I don't see anything about state support for a burka ban.

I do see polling information which indicates national support for a burka ban.

**Kilkrazy**

So unlikely this will be translated into government action?

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:So unlikely this will be translated into government action?

yes indeed Yoda. And in honor of KK's chanelling our favorite balding alien:

**dogma**

Kilkrazy wrote:So unlikely this will be translated into government action?

Not immediately, anyway. Questions of methodology would be at the front on any competent politicians mind. Though it is much easier to survey European nations, when compared to the United States, by virtue of smaller demographics.

I could, however, see Spain and Italy taking action on this. Italy in particular has a history of cultural protections second only to France; though distantly.

**Kanluwen**

The only thing I've heard of is that they're trying to institute it in schools, which is a good testbed I'd think.

**Kilkrazy**

I shall follow it with great interest.

**Da Boss**

I'm not suprised by this, nor do I think it actually means anything. It's a public opinion poll, which is very unlikely to ever be a policy issue. Those people might support a ban, but I bet they probably wouldn't be arsed voting on one in a referendum.

**Frazzled**

Da Boss wrote:
Those people might support a ban, but I bet they probably wouldn't be arsed voting on one in a referendum.

Da Boss brings real world logic and solutions. True words that.

**Fifty**

I was converted in the previous thread on this topic. I think it was Dogma who pointed out that it would very possibly lead to Muslim women simply being even more oppressed, and kept indoors almost the whole time by their men, instead of actually liberating them. Probably only be allowed out to do the shopping. After all, 'that is not a man's job.'

**dogma**

I think it was Sebster, actually. Credit where credit is due, and all.

**dietrich**

And if passed, it would just result in Muslim women wearing something that is nearly identical, but not a burka. It's like banning specific assault weapons in the US.

You can't own a Tek-9!
That's okay, I have a Tek-9b. It's just like a Tek-9, except they put a big red B on the side for Bloods, so it's not a Tek-9.

**Frazzled**

MMM tek 9 now that brings back memories.

**ShumaGorath**

Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

**Kanluwen**

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Or they're finally getting some balls back and refusing to keep altering the parent cultures to be more 'immigrant friendly'.

**Kilkrazy**

No, they are just scared of muslims.

No-one complained about The River Cafe ruining traditional rotten British cooking with all its fancy Italian emphasis on fresh ingredients beautifully cooked.

**Shadowbrand**

Have to agree with Kanlu.

Stay ballsy Europe. -lifts beer-

**Kanluwen**

Kilkrazy wrote:No, they are just scared of muslims.

No-one complained about The River Cafe ruining traditional rotten British cooking with all its fancy Italian emphasis on fresh ingredients beautifully cooked.

You can make British cooking worse?!

But really. This is one of the issues I have with open immigration.
It's fine and dandy to expect a certain amount of acceptance to your beliefs as you enter a new nation.
It's completely unacceptable to expect the nation to alter its ideals to suit YOUR beliefs.

**Norwulf**

I don't really see the point in all this.

Why ban burkahs? I read something about liberating muslim women, so are women in France not allowed to wear what they want? Are they compelled to obey thier husband? Do people feel their government must step in to keep women from being forced to wear a burka? It doesn't make sense to me, women are being forced to wear these things so lets force them not to? Does Europe just want to see some sideboob? I just don't see the objective here. If my government made it illegal to wear purple t shirts, and I was really fond of wearing them, I'd say feth it and wear what I please. I'd hope muslim women would do the same. I'm just baffled by this.

**skipmcne**

Norwulf wrote:I don't really see the point in all this. Why ban burkahs? I read something about liberating muslim women, so are women in France not allowed to wear what they want? Are they compelled to obey thier husband? Do people feel their government must step in to keep women from being forced to wear a burka? It doesn't make sense to me, women are being forced to wear these things so lets force them not to? Does Europe just want to see some sideboob? I just don't see the objective here. If my government made it illegal to wear purple t shirts, and I was really fond of wearing them, I'd say feth it and wear what I please. I'd hope muslim women would do the same. I'm just baffled by this.

From: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/holy-post/archive/2009/10/07/muslim-group-calls-for-burka-ban-in-canada.aspx

We recognize the equality of men and women. We want to recognize gender equality as an absolute. The burka marginalizes women.
Many women who cover their face in public are being forced to by their husbands and family. As a result, these women are denied opportunities and cannot live freely as other women in this society.
The Koran exhorts Muslims toward modesty, which can be expressed in a number of different ways and it doesn’t have to be that you have to cover your face or you have to wear a virtual tent wherever you go. This is not a requirement of Islam or the Koran. We are saying this practice has become a political issue promoted by extremists.

The original ban [In France] was on Public Servants, Educators, Folks working in the government. I'm unclear regarding the terms of the poll.
The Poll DOES try to paint it as a Christian / Muslim conflict when they Do ask about banning Religious Iconography.
The issue here is that the burka is not a Religious symbol, it is a tool for oppression.

**Kanluwen**

Norwulf wrote:I don't really see the point in all this. Why ban burkahs? I read something about liberating muslim women, so are women in France not allowed to wear what they want? Are they compelled to obey their husband? Do people feel their government must step in to keep women from being forced to wear a burka? It doesn't make sense to me, women are being forced to wear these things so lets force them not to? Does Europe just want to see some sideboob? I just don't see the objective here. If my government made it illegal to wear purple t shirts, and I was really fond of wearing them, I'd say feth it and wear what I please. I'd hope muslim women would do the same. I'm just baffled by this.

...Your ignorance baffles me.

The intention is to take France's secularism up another notch, at least in the educational department. The current bit as it stands, is France disallows the wearing of any religious items/symbols in their schools. No yamakahs, no crucifixes, etc.

**dogma**

Kanluwen wrote:
It's completely unacceptable to expect the nation to alter its ideals to suit YOUR beliefs.

I was unaware that French culture was founded on the absence of burkas from the public square.

**Kanluwen**

dogma wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
It's completely unacceptable to expect the nation to alter its ideals to suit YOUR beliefs.

I was unaware that French culture was founded on the absence of burkas from the public square.

Little known fact:
France was founded by refugees from Turkey who felt oppressed by the burka and the lack of skin they were seeing.

**Frazzled**

**Kanluwen**

I don't speak French, but let me translate:
"We found this republic, indivisible, in our pursuit for great bodies. Also: Bros before hos to the death."

**Kilkrazy**

Kanluwen wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:No, they are just scared of muslims.

No-one complained about The River Cafe ruining traditional rotten British cooking with all its fancy Italian emphasis on fresh ingredients beautifully cooked.

You can make British cooking worse?!

But really. This is one of the issues I have with open immigration.
It's fine and dandy to expect a certain amount of acceptance to your beliefs as you enter a new nation.
It's completely unacceptable to expect the nation to alter its ideals to suit YOUR beliefs.

That is ironic given that European ideals include equality before the law, tolerance, and other such puny, weak-willed concepts.

**Frazzled**

I think it may be a good time for this:

**Kilkrazy**

NRRRDD RAEG!!!1!!11!1!!!

Think happy thoughts, think happy thoughts.