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Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Or they're finally getting some balls back and refusing to keep altering the parent cultures to be more 'immigrant friendly'.

Yes, because the extreme minority of muslims are doing so much to alter european culture. 6% of people in france are muslim, 3% of those are women, likely ~1.5% wear Bhurkhas in public places. One in seventy five women are destroying european culture in france. For reference around 4.5% of the german population is muslim and less than 3% of the UK.

Europeans just think muslims are scary. There is no muslim debasement of european culture. Just european debasement of it (freedom of religion unless you're kinda brown! (though really, europes historically never been very religiously tolerant)).

I get that people see the burka as a tool to opress women etc. I get that. But arent French women allowed to think for themselves? Can't they divorce thier husband if they don't wanna wear the burka? It seems to me that wearing a burka has been around along time in muslim culture and some muslim women choose to wear the garb in question, and for those who don't want to wear it, then take it off. I just don't get why people would even consider making it illegal to wear something. It seems like a lot of pointless burecracy to me. I was asking what the purpose of the proposed ban was, in my previous post. Now that I understand that, I can say I think this is slowed.

Kanluwen wrote:The intention is to take France's secularism up another notch, at least in the educational department. The current bit as it stands, is France disallows the wearing of any religious items/symbols in their schools. No yamakahs, no crucifixes, etc.

This part I find dispicable. I think educators have just as much right to express themself as any one else. Wearing a crucifix, yamika, burka or a pentigram etc. is self expression in my book.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:No, they are just scared of muslims.

No-one complained about The River Cafe ruining traditional rotten British cooking with all its fancy Italian emphasis on fresh ingredients beautifully cooked.

You can make British cooking worse?!


But really. This is one of the issues I have with open immigration.
It's fine and dandy to expect a certain amount of acceptance to your beliefs as you enter a new nation.
It's completely unacceptable to expect the nation to alter its ideals to suit YOUR beliefs.

That is ironic given that European ideals include equality before the law, tolerance, and other such puny, weak-willed concepts.

Where did I say anything about making Muslims second class citizens?

Oh right, I didn't! I said that a host nation should not be forced to alter its own culture to accommodate immigrants.
Same deal goes for the fact that now(at least in my area) we're seeing cries of racial persecution from the Hispanic community because not every store has both English and Spanish labels for facilities/services.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Or they're finally getting some balls back and refusing to keep altering the parent cultures to be more 'immigrant friendly'.

Yes, because the extreme minority of muslims are doing so much to alter european culture. 6% of people in france are muslim, 3% of those are women, likely ~1.5% wear Bhurkhas in public places. One in seventy five women are destroying european culture in france.

No, europeans just think muslims are scary. There is no muslim debasement of european culture.

Except, once again, the only actual application of the ban on Burkas is in their schools, where all forms of religious expression are disallowed.
Why should they make an exception for burkas when a Christian student can't wear a crucifix?

Except, once again, the only actual application of the ban on Burkas is in their schools, where all forms of religious expression are disallowed.

Except thats not what the poll was about. Keep trying to make it sound nice, but this article and poll were about simply wanting to disallow the garment.

Norwulf wrote:I get that people see the burka as a tool to opress women etc. I get that. But arent French women allowed to think for themselves? Can't they divorce thier husband if they don't wanna wear the burka? It seems to me that wearing a burka has been around a long time in muslim culture and some muslim women choose to wear the garb in question, and for those who don't want to wear it, then take it off. I just don't get why people would even consider making it illegal to wear something. It seems like a lot of pointless burecracy to me. I was asking what the purpose of the proposed ban was, in my previous post. Now that I understand that, I can say I think this is slowed.

Kanluwen wrote:The intention is to take France's secularism up another notch, at least in the educational department. The current bit as it stands, is France disallows the wearing of any religious items/symbols in their schools. No yamakahs, no crucifixes, etc.

This part I find dispicable. I think educators have just as much right to express themself as any one else. Wearing a crucifix, yamika, burka or a pentigram etc. is self expression in my book.

Sure; But nobody in France is allowed to wear a Crucifix, yamakah, burqua, or other religious symbol in School. They're just adding the Burka to the list of "Banned Religious items. It's fair, because EVERYONE is treated equally.

President Sarkozy set the tone for the burqa debate last June when he declared, “The burqa is not a religious sign, it is a sign of the subjugation, of the submission of women...it will not be welcome on our territory.” In France, children have been forbidden from wearing any religious symbols in state schools since 2004.

Kanluwen wrote:
Why should they make an exception for burkas when a Christian student can't wear a crucifix?

This is a good point. Which is why I think its unfair they don't let people wear what they choose in their schools. Why not have kids in burkas and kids with crucifixes?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Except, once again, the only actual application of the ban on Burkas is in their schools, where all forms of religious expression are disallowed.

Except thats not what the poll was about. Keep trying to make it sound nice, but this article and poll were about simply wanting to disallow the garment.

And where's the problem with that?
It's a ridiculous practice which only serves to further discredit Islam in the eyes of many. Religions have no business dictating a dress code.
Admittedly, neither do governments.

Norwulf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Why should they make an exception for burkas when a Christian student can't wear a crucifix?

This is a good point. Which is why I think its unfair they don't let people wear what they choose in their schools. Why not have kids in burkas and kids with crucifixes?

It's an attempt to enforce secularism in public affairs and practices. Not an altogether bad idea, but it's also not what this poll was about.

Norwulf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Why should they make an exception for burkas when a Christian student can't wear a crucifix?

This is a good point. Which is why I think its unfair they don't let people wear what they choose in their schools. Why not have kids in burkas and kids with crucifixes?

Because it's France, And French Society is Very secular.

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Except, once again, the only actual application of the ban on Burkas is in their schools, where all forms of religious expression are disallowed.

Except thats not what the poll was about. Keep trying to make it sound nice, but this article and poll were about simply wanting to disallow the garment.

And where's the problem with that?
It's a ridiculous practice which only serves to further discredit Islam in the eyes of many. Religions have no business dictating a dress code.
Admittedly, neither do governments.

I'm not sure how to respond here except insofar as it's probably utterly irrelevant if some white douche thinks that a robe discredits a religion with over a billion members. I'll also disagree that governments have no business dictating dress code. Both religions and governments have historically done so.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:No, they are just scared of muslims.

No-one complained about The River Cafe ruining traditional rotten British cooking with all its fancy Italian emphasis on fresh ingredients beautifully cooked.

You can make British cooking worse?!


But really. This is one of the issues I have with open immigration.
It's fine and dandy to expect a certain amount of acceptance to your beliefs as you enter a new nation.
It's completely unacceptable to expect the nation to alter its ideals to suit YOUR beliefs.

That is ironic given that European ideals include equality before the law, tolerance, and other such puny, weak-willed concepts.

Where did I say anything about making Muslims second class citizens?

Oh right, I didn't! I said that a host nation should not be forced to alter its own culture to accommodate immigrants.

Exactly, and I said it was ironic that European ideals included equality before the law, and tolerance, which clearly are both violated by a general ban on a specific article of muslim dress.

To make it plain, in order to avoid being forced to alter their own culture by accepting foreign traditional dress, in line with their own culture of tolerance, Europeans are being forced to alter their culture to ban particular articles of foreign traditional dress.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:No, they are just scared of muslims.

No-one complained about The River Cafe ruining traditional rotten British cooking with all its fancy Italian emphasis on fresh ingredients beautifully cooked.

You can make British cooking worse?!


But really. This is one of the issues I have with open immigration.
It's fine and dandy to expect a certain amount of acceptance to your beliefs as you enter a new nation.
It's completely unacceptable to expect the nation to alter its ideals to suit YOUR beliefs.

That is ironic given that European ideals include equality before the law, tolerance, and other such puny, weak-willed concepts.

Where did I say anything about making Muslims second class citizens?

Oh right, I didn't! I said that a host nation should not be forced to alter its own culture to accommodate immigrants.

Exactly, and I said it was ironic that European ideals included equality before the law, and tolerance, which clearly are both violated by a general ban on a specific article of muslim dress.

It doesn't matter if it's intolerant and illogical. Muslims are scary.

skipmcne wrote:
Sure; But nobody in France is allowed to wear a Crucifix, yamakah, burqua, or other religious symbol in School. They're just adding the Burka to the list of "Banned Religious items. It's fair, because EVERYONE is treated equally.

I wouldn't call it fair. If they burn all the qurans, torahs, and bibles in one bonfire equally, is it fair? Its unfair because their school system is dictating what students can and cannot wear. Its important in muslim culture that women wear a burka, its important in jewish culture that men wear a kippot, and when you force someone not to wear these items of clothing your oppressing them and their beliefs.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Except, once again, the only actual application of the ban on Burkas is in their schools, where all forms of religious expression are disallowed.

Except thats not what the poll was about. Keep trying to make it sound nice, but this article and poll were about simply wanting to disallow the garment.

And where's the problem with that?
It's a ridiculous practice which only serves to further discredit Islam in the eyes of many. Religions have no business dictating a dress code.
Admittedly, neither do governments.

I'm not sure how to respond here except insofar as it's probably utterly irrelevant if some white douche thinks that a robe discredits a religion with over a billion members. I'll also disagree that governments have no business dictating dress code. Both religions and governments have historically done so.

It's not the fact that it's a robe, Shuma. It's the perceived implications of that robe. It's a measure of control over a part of society that isn't normally controlled by anyone outside of the wearer themselves.

While yes, there are people who have no problems with modesty and in fact encourage it, there is a problem when that modesty is forced upon you by outside ideals.

Norwulf wrote:

skipmcne wrote:
Sure; But nobody in France is allowed to wear a Crucifix, yamakah, burqua, or other religious symbol in School. They're just adding the Burka to the list of "Banned Religious items. It's fair, because EVERYONE is treated equally.

I wouldn't call it fair. If they burn all the qurans, torahs, and bibles in one bonfire equally, is it fair? Its unfair because their school system is dictating what students can and cannot wear. Its important in muslim culture that women wear a burka, its important in jewish culture that men wear a kippot, and when you force someone not to wear these items of clothing your oppressing them and their beliefs.

A society doesn't have to tolerate all religious practices, and is well within a mandate of tolerance and free religion so long as it chooses which practices to disallow logically. Islam is not a gender equal religion, nor is judaism or christianity. However laws that would ban stoning or killing a son for cursing his father are not the same as uncommonly accepted methods for following a call to modesty. Disallowing religious iconography in publicly funded roles such as schools or courts isn't an intolerant practice. Banning them in public shared spaces or in private is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Except, once again, the only actual application of the ban on Burkas is in their schools, where all forms of religious expression are disallowed.

Except thats not what the poll was about. Keep trying to make it sound nice, but this article and poll were about simply wanting to disallow the garment.

And where's the problem with that?
It's a ridiculous practice which only serves to further discredit Islam in the eyes of many. Religions have no business dictating a dress code.
Admittedly, neither do governments.

I'm not sure how to respond here except insofar as it's probably utterly irrelevant if some white douche thinks that a robe discredits a religion with over a billion members. I'll also disagree that governments have no business dictating dress code. Both religions and governments have historically done so.

It's not the fact that it's a robe, Shuma. It's the perceived implications of that robe. It's a measure of control over a part of society that isn't normally controlled by anyone outside of the wearer themselves.

While yes, there are people who have no problems with modesty and in fact encourage it, there is a problem when that modesty is forced upon you by outside ideals.

Outside ideals? I didn't know islam included mind control helmets, and I didn't know the french courts upheld sharia law.

This is a strawman and you know it.

It is, but it's a very good strawman that won't catch on fire right away!

Kanluwen wrote:
While yes, there are people who have no problems with modesty and in fact encourage it, there is a problem when that modesty is forced upon you by outside ideals.

Oppressive or not, calling the practice of wearing the burka (which, while it might be religiously motivated, is not an explicitly religious symbol) an outside ideal is something of a stretch. We have no way of knowing if the woman in question wants to wear the garment.

Moreover, if the issue is one of oppression, why not simply make a point of emphasizing the laws designed to prevent it?

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Except, once again, the only actual application of the ban on Burkas is in their schools, where all forms of religious expression are disallowed.

Except thats not what the poll was about. Keep trying to make it sound nice, but this article and poll were about simply wanting to disallow the garment.

And where's the problem with that?
It's a ridiculous practice which only serves to further discredit Islam in the eyes of many. Religions have no business dictating a dress code.
Admittedly, neither do governments.

I'm not sure how to respond here except insofar as it's probably utterly irrelevant if some white douche thinks that a robe discredits a religion with over a billion members. I'll also disagree that governments have no business dictating dress code. Both religions and governments have historically done so.

It's not the fact that it's a robe, Shuma. It's the perceived implications of that robe. It's a measure of control over a part of society that isn't normally controlled by anyone outside of the wearer themselves.

While yes, there are people who have no problems with modesty and in fact encourage it, there is a problem when that modesty is forced upon you by outside ideals.

This is true, but when a government forces someone not to wear something, its just as bad as when a government forces someone to wear something. Be it a robe, baseball cap or ballgag. The choice should be left up to the individual.

Kanluwen wrote:It is, but it's a very good strawman that won't catch on fire right away!

I'm pretty sure it's been on fire since you started posting in this thread.

Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Because America isn't, right? Good post.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It is, but it's a very good strawman that won't catch on fire right away!

I'm pretty sure it's been on fire since you started posting in this thread.

I thought that was just my cousin's cigs. Oh well.

Dogma wrote:Oppressive or not, calling the practice of wearing the burka (which, while it might be religiously motivated, is not an explicitly religious symbol) an outside ideal is something of a stretch. We have no way of knowing if the woman in question wants to wear the garment.

Moreover, if the issue is one of oppression, why not simply make a point of emphasizing the laws designed to prevent it?

Well said.
So rather than just banning the burkas, we ban the Islamic practice of forcing women to wear it and make it her choice?

Well said.
So rather than just banning the burkas, we ban the Islamic practice of forcing women to wear it and make it her choice?

Impossible to enforce and its already illegal to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anti-Mag wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Because America isn't, right? Good post.

Same article says were half as scared.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Well said.
So rather than just banning the burkas, we ban the Islamic practice of forcing women to wear it and make it her choice?

Impossible to enforce and its already illegal to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anti-Mag wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Because America isn't, right? Good post.

Same article says were half as scared.

Then it must be true.

Anti-Mag wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Well said.
So rather than just banning the burkas, we ban the Islamic practice of forcing women to wear it and make it her choice?

Impossible to enforce and its already illegal to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anti-Mag wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Because America isn't, right? Good post.

Same article says were half as scared.

Then it must be true.

We're not the ones banning burkas and minarets.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Anti-Mag wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Well said.
So rather than just banning the burkas, we ban the Islamic practice of forcing women to wear it and make it her choice?

Impossible to enforce and its already illegal to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anti-Mag wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Europeans sure are scared of muslims.

Because America isn't, right? Good post.

Same article says were half as scared.

Then it must be true.

We're not the ones banning burkas and minarets.

Shuma, I'm not getting into an argument over this. I'm not going to even entertain the notion of America not being xenophobic, as it would hilarious, and this is a serious thread, apparently. Your comments on this site are always well written and your points normally vaild. Therefore I felt a bit dissapointed that your first comment laughably short sighted. Come on man, you can do better.

As for Frazzled endless anchormaneque news peddling; on this topic, I hope they ban burkas. I find them rude in the same way that I find people wearing sunglasses rude. If you want to talk to me in person, have the decency to talk to me as openly as I do you. I couldn't give a hoot what cosy voodoo you subscibe to; we're human beings who are communicating. I'd make an exception if I was asked to perform differently in a foreign nation; the same should be said likewise.

Europe, a true bastion of tolerance and personal liberty.

Kanluwen wrote:
So rather than just banning the burkas, we ban the Islamic practice of forcing women to wear it and make it her choice?

I'd put it more generally: ban domestic abuse. Or, rather, since domestic abuse if probably already banned in France, focus on extending inroads to women in Islamic communities.

dogma wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
So rather than just banning the burkas, we ban the Islamic practice of forcing women to wear it and make it her choice?

I'd put it more generally: ban domestic abuse. Or, rather, since domestic abuse if probably already banned in France, focus on extending inroads to women in Islamic communities.

I don't see how domestic abuse can be policed effectively. I am sure there are many Muslim women who are perfectly happy wearing a burkha, as well as those who are not.

Also, to future posters; Earth is a seething cesspit of racism and intolerance. It is what empires are built on. Stop attempting to make yourselves feel good by throwing stones at Europe. It's not right, but it is there.

Burkas are hot!