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Hey folks!

You can find my other battle reports for this tournament here:
Round One
Round Two


Going into the third round, I'm leading the tournament in battlepoints with a flawless 60/60 points. There were 26-30 people there, which is why I chose to drive so far to attend in the first place - I wanted stiff competition, and a new friend of mine (Primarch from Dakka here) told me to come get a beat down in Atlanta if I wanted to see a real challenge.

Lo and behold, my third round opponent is Primarch! He speaks his mind, and does so frankly (if abrasively sometimes) - I liked him immediately. Despite him telling me that he used to call me DashofIdiot because he disagreed with my extensive tactica writing on how to effectively play Orks. He's the runner up with 57/60 battlepoints, and he's ALSO playing Orks. I made a joke, "Nothing like some ork on ork action, eh?" Then I realized I was playing pink orks and apologized for sounding fluffy in a deep, masculine voice. All in good fun.

Dashofpepper's Pink Waaaugh!

HQ1: Ghazghkull Thraka
HQ2: Big Mek with Kustom Force Field, Powerklaw, Grot Oiler

Troop1: 7 diversified nobs (cybork bodies, painboy, 3 kombi-rokkits) in Battlewagon
Troop2: 16 Boyz + Nob/PK
Troop3: 11 Boyz + Nob/PK/Bosspole
Troop4: 10 Gretchin+Runtherder

Elite1: 15 Burnas Boyz (in battlewagon with Burnas)
Elite2: 5 Lootas
Elite3: 5 Lootas

Fast Attack1: Deffkopta with TL Rokkits + Buzzsaw
Fast Attack2: Deffkopta with TL Rokkits + Buzzsaw
Fast Attack3: 3x Warbuggies with TL Rokkits

Heavy1: Battlewagon, DeffRolla, Big Shoota, Grabbin' Klaw, Boarding Plank, Armor Plates
Heavy2: Battlewagon, DeffRolla, Big Shoota, Grabbin' Klaw, Boarding Plank, Armor Plates

Clay's Kan Wall

HQ1: Big Mek with a KFF, bosspole
HQ2: Warboss with a Powerklaw and Attack Squig, on a bike

Troop1: 7 diversified nobs on bikes (painboy inclusive)
Troop2: 27 boyz + Nob/powerklaw
Troop3: 27 Boyz + Nob/powerklaw/bosspole

Elite1: 15 Lootas
Elite2: 15 Lootas

Heavy1: 3 killa kans, Grotzookas
Heavy2: 3 killa kans, Grotzookas
Heavy3: 3 killa kans, Grotzookas


Mission/Deployment
The game is Pitched Battle, Seize Ground with SIX mandatory objectives. Each player assigns a value to their three objectives; either 1,1,3 or 1,2,2 in secret, then puts the objectives on the table.

15 points: Own more value in objectives than your opponent
10 points: Score 500+ more victory points than your opponent.
5 points: Eliminate all enemy HQ choices, and any dedicated transports bought for them.

Clay won the roll off and decided that he wanted me to deploy and go first. I looked at his list, then asked him if I was missing anything - no rokkits anywhere. I'm caught on what to do here because he has no way of punching through my battlewagons at range, I have a bigger threat radius to charge with because of my mechanization. If this were killpoints, I'd sit at range and hide everything behind battlewagons, but being seize ground we're going to fight over the middle. He places one objective in the middle, I place one 12" away tpwards a long edge, he places one to the left, I place one center on the other side....we basically put all our objectives as close to each other as possible )12" apart) I deploy with my wagons protecting my trukk, flanked by Lootas, with gretchin on my objective and my deffkoptas on both flanks.

He deployed in response across the board with an anti-charge unit of boyz spread across his edge and everything behind it. This picture is after my scout moves.


Here's a shoulder view of my central deployment and what I'm looking at.


I turbo-boost my deffkoptas across the board (one of them will be in position to assault a Loota unit on turn1) and he rolls to seize - he wasn't going to until he saw where my deffkoptas were going. He rolls and steals the initiative.

Clay Turn1: His Lootas both get 3 shots each, open up on both of my Deffkoptas and poof. They both die. He ends his turn without moving from his line - he's hoping for countercharge opportunity.

Dash's turn1: I zoom my wagons and trukk 12" forward. I kind of want to sit back....but there's going to be a fight sooner or later, so I move 12" up to see what's going to happen.


My Lootas open up and take down one kan.


Clay Turn2: His warboss + Nobs on bikes skid 18" around his lines to position themselves for assaulting battlewagons and opening up some kans. The rest of his lines stay put.


One of his Loota squads open up on my warbuggies; between his shooting and my KFF saves, he gets one stunned result, which goes down to shaken.


His other Loota squad opens up on my Lootas - I go to ground in hopes of saving them, and one goes down.


Dash's Turn2: I've started getting a good eye for ranges - not perfect yet, and I can't judge 6" perfectly, but I can tell that his warbikes are within 30" of Ghazghkull's wagon. My wagon with boyz in it rolls 12" ahead and spills out boyz to assault his front line, Ghazghkull+burnas jump 12" across towards his bikes - I make the strategic decision not to take the burnas out; I was 50/50 on this one...I didn't think Ghazghkull would be able to take down the warboss and nobs by himself, but with huge amounts of boys still out there, I was afraid to commit my burnas into combat so early. My compromise was to throw Ghazghkull at the nob bikers and support him with a unit of trukk boys.


Ghazghkull survives unscathed and kills the warboss and two nobs, while the boys inflict a few wounds on the rest of them. He rolls snake eyes for leadership and stays in! I've lost the initiative now, and my forces are committed elsewhere, so I've got to cross my fingers on this one.

Elsewhere on the assault front, my big squad jump out of their wagon and assault his front line. I made a tactical error here; where I ended up meant I had to assault through cover. I should have dropped my battlewagon 1" back so I could get all my boys out and into assault - with him spread across 36+ inches, it was an idea assault target since a lot of his boyz wouldn't make it into the assault. As it was, I messed up. =p I chose to leave my nobs in their wagon so that the following turn they could get into something behind that front unit that I was pulling in. He got to strike first and killed a few - I killed quite a few in return, he made fearless saves, and we ended up here:


At this point, we're ending turn2, and they announce 30 minutes left (out of 2h 15 minutes). Or maybe it was one hour left. Either way, I got scarce on pictures and forgot about the camera, so most of the rest will have to get explained in pictures.

Clay turn3: His two untouched kan units move up towards Ghazghkull then assault in. His third unit of two assault into the boys flailing on his boys. His other boyz unit moves up towards the middle of the board to get in range of moving to the objectives. 6 kans assault into Ghazghkull (along with bikes still) and deal two wounds despite the 2+ invul save. Ghazghkull ignores the bikers and goes after the kans; 2 on one unit, three on the other - ke takes down one kan and shakes another, but that's it. My boyz get beaten down by his bikes and leave the nob and three orks who swing back and kill one bike with a powerklaw - I lose combat, take my fearless saves and lose the rest of the boys except for the nob. In the big combat my boys finish off his boyz while my powerklaw effectually hits his kans.

Dashofpepper turn3: My burna wagon rotates and moves a couple inches, then wipes the entire mob of 28 boys + the KFF mek. Six objectives on the board, and his nob bikers are his only remaining troop choice. My empty wagon moves into the now open spot 12" to get closer to the kans beating on Ghazghkull. the nobs wagon moves up and unloads nobs onto the Lootas in his back corner; they assault in and wipe out the Lootas. In the middle, his two kans kill a couple of my boyz, and my powerklaw kills one of his kans. Ghazghkull and my nob are off the Waaaugh! now and Ghazghkull takes the remaining two wounds and goes down - the kans consolidate towards my battlewagons - his nob bikers do the same.

Clay Turn4: His bikers and kans all move up to the battlewagon with my burnas in it and whack on it, exploding it - 3 burnas die in the explosion, and the other 12 pile out. His remaining Lootas open up my gretchin trying to pull me off the objective - I go to ground and 5 die anyway, although they will pass leadership at the end of his shooting. IN the middle, his kan and my boys swing at each other some more and stay in combat.

Dash's turn4: Clay is expecting me to flame his bikes...but I would rather use them as power weapons. My 12 burnas 2d6 and get a 6 - all get out of cover, and they line up to assault his bikes. My nobs get back in their wagon and jump onto an objective. My gretchin are hunkered down on theirs. Both of my Loota squads open up on the kans that assaulted my battlewagon and kill them both. My empty battlewagon rams into his other kan unit and kills them too. I might be mixing turn4 and 5 here, but I don't have the pictures to back me up. ><

My burnas deal enough wounds to end his remaining nob bikers, just leaving him a unit of Lootas in the corner, and the game ends. Here's a few pictures I snapped at the end when I remembered I had forgotten pictures.

I lost a trukk and a battlewagon here, and this was the burna-nob biker battleground:


Back here was where my nobs assaulted into his Lootas -


Hist last unit on the table at the end - pared down Lootas


I owned more objective points for 15 points; I killed 1800 or so of his army in exchange for losing a trukk, a battlewagon, Ghazghkull, a trukk boy unit, and both deffkoptas (750 points or so?) so I got the secondary objective, and both of his HQs were dead, so I got a 30 point massacre.

At the end of the tournament, I had 90/90 battlepoints. I can't be certain about my painting score, but I think it was 70%, and I had 30/30 sportsmanship score, and I won best overall, getting a plaque and $125 of store credit, which I actually left as store credit...I couldn't actually think of anything to buy that I need.

I had a lot of fun, met a lot of cool people, and got to put some faces to more dakka names. Their circuit champion from last year told me laughingly after the tournament that there was a lot of internal smacktalk about how they were going to teach me (the out of towner) how to play, but it was humorous, and good fun.

I went out with Clay and Jamie (and his wife) after dinner for mexican and had some laughs about the fun we had, and talked about the games we had and various tactics...this is where Primarch told me that he used to call me DashofIdiot because he didn't like some of my tactical thoughts on Orks. He was ribbing me before our game that he was going to go back to all the threads where I had said that I'd beat him in certain scenarios orks v. orks and bump them, so I guess I'm safe for now.

Great crowd, great event - despite the long travel time to get there, I'll be trying to get an excuse to get to Atlanta for the next big tournament - apparently the Atlanta greater circuit is held at a different store and every two months, so May (the week before 'Ard Boyz) will be the next date. After the absolute bull**** that I had to deal with drama-wise in Florida (and a bit elsewhere), its absolutely wonderful to play with folks who aren't douches!

nice rep, and awesome on the perfect battle points.

Only thing I noticed over the three bat reps is that your buggies and deffkoptas seemed to do nothing, maybe try replacing them with something else?

Mafty wrote:nice rep, and awesome on the perfect battle points.

Only thing I noticed over the three bat reps is that your buggies and deffkoptas seemed to do nothing, maybe try replacing them with something else?

In game one, my buggies killed the STR10 weapon on a Soul Grinder and kept him from assaulting my wagons. In game 2 they....might have did something to a vendetta, or they whiffed the whole game. In game three they did pretty much nothing.

My goal for them is to provide another unit with vehicle popping abilities. In 1850, they're probably going to go. At 2,000 points....I'm not sure yet whether they're worth it, but keep in mind that between Space Marines and IG, we have almost 70% of players accounted for. I didn't hit any space marine players or any rhinos, and having only used them in ONE tournament...I'm not sure about their worth yet.

As for the deffkoptas, they are also a single-use unit - they exist to run up turn1 and pop transports. I didn't play against anything except the vendettas in round2, so not a good sampling of what they can do. They *will* stay in my list because they've proven themselves valuable time and again. In game3, if Clay hadn't stolen the initiative, I would have had one of his Loota units in assault with me from turn1, unable to shoot at me - completely worthwhile. And on the other side, I either would have gotten to assault his front unit or his other Lootas, in which case his kans would have been wide open to deffrollas. The fact that my opponents expended so much firepower in killing my deffkoptas is worthwhile to me - I don't judge a units' value by how many points it kills, or I'd probably never take deffkoptas. Trading a 70 point deffkopta for a 50 point or less rhino doesn't make sense pointwise....except that those marines are now on foot where my boyz can assault them freely. And that *is* worth it.

From the grand perspective, my deffkoptas are quite useful. I'm undecided about the buggies, but they need more use before I can really make a judgment call.

Mafty wrote:
Only thing I noticed over the three bat reps is that your buggies and deffkoptas seemed to do nothing, maybe try replacing them with something else?

To be fair to the koptas, his opponents were: daemons so they had no target to attack on t1, IG who went second and hid way back to shoot them off, and he lost the initiative here with them in a threatening position. I've had good luck with my similar squads, to date, though I'd have outflanked them more than Dash did.

I'm split on the buggies, and I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on them from Dash. (ninja'd!)

Oh, and congratulations Dash! Glad to see the army playstyle work (and work quite well) in a solid large-scale setting.
For 125$ you really couldn't find anything? Should have treated yourself to 2 more rolla wagons or 9 of the new kans or something so you could mix up your army style later

Nothing to critique here (or from round 2, for that matter).

My nitpicking in the round 1 report is just that.

Grats on the well-deserved win.

His buggies and deffkoptas did do one thing, draw loads of fire.

Great reports and awesome job, I guess most people soften up in person.

hah man that was a really exciting game to read!

congrats on the win -- you really deffrolla'd 'em.

Sometime this summer I will have to show you up again with my spiky, floaty Eldar

Good to see the list doing well Dash. All your opponents had solid if imperfect lists. I loved reading about an Ork vs. Ork final. I think Kan Wall is pretty darn solid and your victory was impressive.

Guard is pretty tough going second. But you had the right mission for your game 2 so you dodged a potentially tougher match-up there by going first. Regardless, your generalship served you well.

Edit: Regarding your observation on the Kan Wall: Yeah he probably needs deffkoptas in his list. They would have been helpful against your wagons.

Well done and congrats!

While I am not "OMFG DEFFROLLAS IS BROKAN!" school, it does force Orks into a certain build (your style build) to be very competitive and I think we just all read about the first of many Battlewagon Orks tournament wins.

That all said, well done Dash, I really appreciate your reports for two reasons: first I haven't referred to you as DashofIdiot yet because I think most of your tactical analysis is spot on, and two, you are ranging out into the wide world of 4K and we are seeing how different people play all over the country. You're kinda like a traveling reporter.

starbomber109 wrote:His buggies and deffkoptas did do one thing, draw loads of fire.

Great reports and awesome job, I guess most people soften up in person.

Hear Hear!!

Drawing fire is worth it! One of my 35 pt. Wartakk's drew the fire of a Valkyrie for a turn when there were much better targets available.

Excellent reading Dashofwinner!

Congrats.

Where did you play in Florida?

congrats Dash, it was hilarious to see a bright pink Ork army smacking everybody down. If you play fantasy, ill look forward to seeing you at the Circuit event in our store in April

is it a store rule that you seize the initiative on a 1? the book says it happens on a six but, as long as it's agreed on ahead of time, it's all the same in the end.

Kevin Nash wrote: Good to see the list doing well Dash. All your opponents had solid if imperfect lists. I loved reading about an Ork vs. Ork final. I think Kan Wall is pretty darn solid and your victory was impressive.

Guard is pretty tough going second. But you had the right mission for your game 2 so you dodged a potentially tougher match-up there by going first. Regardless, your generalship served you well.

Edit: Regarding your observation on the Kan Wall: Yeah he probably needs deffkoptas in his list. They would have been helpful against your wagons.

Ya know, I was going to spend Friday night painting up some Coptas for this event, I have been meaning to anyway, but time just ran out on me. So they are on the list.



As to the other stuff;


This was my first time using the Nob bikerz as well, so I was trying to adjust. In the game in question, my thought was to absorb his initial charges, then counter with the Kans and 2nd Ork mob and Nobz.

It semi-worked, but having never played against mech Orks, I was in learning mode as well. I am one of those guys who thinks paper doesn't matter. I need to SEE it on the board to believe it. Ghaz was stronger than I imagined he would be. Also, had I pictured him using his Burnaz from the front of that Deffrolla, I would have held them back so he couldn't reach me with a 6 inch move. Live and learn.

Either way, great to meet some of the guys from here, and trust me, all the smack talk was good natured and friendly. I look forward to the rematch Justin!



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:is it a store rule that you seize the initiative on a 1? the book says it happens on a six but, as long as it's agreed on ahead of time, it's all the same in the end.

Nope, at least in my game the initiative was stolen on a roll of 6.



Clay

Congrats on your victories!

Mechanized Orks typically trump foot Orks though because whichever Orks get the charge win. I facepalmed when I saw what he did with his biker nobs (jetting them out from behind the protection of boyz and into easy charge range of Ghaz.) He would have been much better off with a gretchin unit in there to act as an assault screen for his boyz and nobs behind a wall of kans so you couldn't tank shock them away. That's the only answer I've thought of for mechanized Orks vs. foot Orks anyway. There was also a mini-facepalm for letting your burna wagon get up to his foot mob, that thing is dangerous and needs to be treated as such, many people fail to realize its potential.

Culler wrote:Congrats on your victories!

Mechanized Orks typically trump foot Orks though because whichever Orks get the charge win. I facepalmed when I saw what he did with his biker nobs (jetting them out from behind the protection of boyz and into easy charge range of Ghaz.) He would have been much better off with a gretchin unit in there to act as an assault screen for his boyz and nobs behind a wall of kans so you couldn't tank shock them away. That's the only answer I've thought of for mechanized Orks vs. foot Orks anyway. There was also a mini-facepalm for letting your burna wagon get up to his foot mob, that thing is dangerous and needs to be treated as such, many people fail to realize its potential.

Facepalm all you want. In the end, the Nobs and Kans killed Ghaz and the Trukk boyz. As for the Burnaz, like I said above, if you bothered to read it. I hadn't figured he would use the front edge of his DR to place the Burna template. If I had thought that to be the case, then I wouldn't have moved up to allow him to use them like that.


Also, I don't think the Ghaz charge was quite as easily attained as you make it out to be. Did I guess wrong? Yeah, by a few inches, but I didn't move up to 2 inches from the BW or anything. So yeah, he made the charge, but in the end, I lost nothing squad-wise, and he lost Ghaz, Truk Boyz, Truk, and BW. Now in the game I lost quite a bit, but from that particular fight, the units that survived went on to do the most damage to his army.

Not sure why I responded to a wannabe in the first place, but maybe you should think a little more before you post.


Clay

Primarch wrote: As for the Burnaz, like I said above, if you bothered to read it.

No need to get all snippy, I had left the reply box open when I decided to get some lunch so your post wasn't up for me. Don't take it as some personal attack, much like your personal attack.

In Dash's picture the distance between your biker nobs and his closest battlewagon looks to be about 20". Considering Ghaz's charge range with WAAAGH! out of a wagon is 12" move + 2" disembark + 1" base size + 6" WAAAGH! + best of 2d6" charge = ~25" or so, it feels like you badly miscalculated. Then again, by adding the trukk boyz to the charge, Dash likely saved the nobs from losing combat by as much. With 7 attacks on the charge Ghaz will kill an average of 2.59 Nobs after cybork saves, though he could possibly take the warboss out as well if he sends some attacks that way, and in return probably takes a single wound. This puts Ghaz winning combat by anywhere from 3-6 and forcing the nobs to test Ld at 6-3 or flee, where Ghaz has a good shot at sweeping them and they might fall back off the table. Long story short, keep your biker nobs away from powerfist platforms that you can't kill reliably.

Primarch wrote:In the end, the Nobs and Kans killed Ghaz and the Trukk boyz.

Ghaz + trukk boyz + the battlewagon the nobs helped kill along with the kans all together cost 1/2 as much or so of your nob bikers. You need these guys to be crazy productive to use them effectively.

It was a rookie mistake, but, like you said, it was a learning experience. I've personally gone through this learning experience already with my biker nobs, having run a list similar to yours many times before.

Alright....nine hours later and I'm home! I took today off from work as well (calendar year is April 1) and I have vacation to burn or I lose it. And I'm going to lose most of it anyway. ><

@Gorkamorka:

In terms of my $125, they didn't have any kans or I would have bought them. I have three battlewagons with rollas, and a 4th battlewagon unassembled new in the box, so definitely no need for another battlewagon, let alone trukks, of which I have a total of five. I'm torn on the kans - if I use them, I need mobs of foot-slogging boys to support them, which I don't have (I have them painted in units of 12, with one unit of 20 for battlewagon stuff), so a kan-wall isn't really within the scope of my abilities right now. I *do* have three kans already, so I can field a unit of them if I want to. I'm going to have to do some thinking for 'Ard Boyz - I've also been contemplating a unit of kannons, and I have all the kannons and zzap guns from my battlewagons that I could mount on wheels. My dark eldar army is fleshed out, and I could easily fit 2500-3000 points with what I have painted and ready to go....not that I'd ever actually play them at that point level, Orks do so much better. I have 7-10k points worth of Tau, and will probably never play them again, so need for anything there. And Blood Angels aren't out yet, or I'd consider them. All in all, seems best to keep it as store credit. I can spend it on kans later, or use it to get new dark eldar when they come out....I have options. And in terms of the buggies....I am *also* split on them. I don't really know what to say here except that they need more play-testing.

@ICB:

Thanks for the kind words. See you around on Vassal/Skype.

@starbomber109:

Absolutely - they drew fire that could have hurt other things badly, but a twin-linked rokkit with a buzzsaw that can cross a lot of ground quickly is an immediate threat, and ignoring them is *also* perilous. Giving my opponents very tough choices to make is my goal.

@ibushi:

Have we played? I don't recognize your screen name from anywhere, although I might know you from somewhere else.

@Kevin Nash:

I agree with your thoughts on solid but imperfect lists. Honestly, it isn't hard to look at my list and say the same; it has some glaring flaws of its own. The Ork on Ork action was *really* fun and pumped me up. I miscalculated a few times in that game, which I think I pointed out - I've never actually played against a kan-wall before - I was expecting to deffrolla through them and do serious damage, but he kept them behind his orks....so I was going to deffrolla through the orks to get to the kans behind them, but never really got the chance simply because of how the game played out. In terms of Primarch needing deffkoptas....I'm not so sure. I honestly don't think they would have helped him against my list. I have enough shooting to threaten them myself, and my five Loota units would have had fun with that one, along with the random big shootas in my own army - and with his inability to threaten my wagons at range, I would have been happy to move 6" per turn to drop the koptas from the get-go. Even if I ignored them, they'd be needing 6+ to hit with only three attacks each while I'm moving, and if I don't get first turn, I deploy my battlewagons back and use my own deffkoptas and warbuggies to provide a physical screen that the koptas can't bypass to get to my wagons. And I definitely agree with you that game2 was critical in terms of the mission and me going first.

@Dainty Twerp:

I enjoy getting out to play. However, deffrollas really *aren't* the big, nasty threats that people think they are. There's some good analysis elsewhere with statistical probabilities, comparisons to melta-guns, etc. Between all three of my games, my deffrollas killed a Soul Grinder (which I didn't need the deff-rolla to do - he died on the ram anyway, the deffrolla never got to hit), killed a couple of guardsmen in a vet squad, and killed a couple of killa-kans on turn5 of another game. That doesn't strike me as overpowered. While it is theoretically possible for someone to smash through multiple land raiders and all that jazz....that stuff doesn't happen. All Deffrollas are is a secondary tank-busting backup plan.

@MasterSlowPoke:

Jacksonville. There are/were four FLGS in Jacksonville, FL - I played primarily at one and had great experiences. I made the mistake of attending another store's RTT very early in my career and *much* drama ensued, primarily involving one person, and a bunch of his fanboys that have a 32 page thread calling me every name in the book. That drama followed me a bit to North Carolina, where some equally rude folks started a second chapter of it. If you want some entertaining reading, my name is Shelix elsewhere on the internetz, and here you can find Hours of Entertaining Reading/Flaming

@Sergeant Horse:

I don't play Fantasy, just 40k. Eventually I may pick up another gaming system, but I need to master one before looking for a second. And pink orks tabling people has been a fun pastime for quite a while now.

@Warboss:

I've never heard of seizing on a 1 instead of a 6 - I can't think of any reason anyone would do it either.

@Primarch:

Like I said elsewhere - great to meet you, good to make a new friend and I look forward to future rematches on Vassal and locally.

@Culler:

I tend to agree that mech orks trump foot orks - I wouldn't be afraid to throw a trukk boy mob at a foot-slogging mob twice the size simply because I'd get to go first, and with a 12" move, 6" fleet, 6" assault (before we even get into disembarking tricks) and furious charge.

Also, Ghazghkull's charge range is something that no one really expects. Even knowing that he has a 30" assault radius - which I'm sure Primarch did, it is still unbelievable to see it happen on the table. I *did* roll a 5 or 6 where it counted for his slow and purposeful except in game 2 when he rolled 4 as the highest when I needed a 5.

Probably so, however, Ghaz is a big threat, and about the only thing I had that could deal with him were the Nobs. If I had used Boyz, he would have piled in and counter charged me to death.


Anyway, live and learn, and now that I see the mounted stuff in action, I might change over my list, since I used to love KoS way back in 3rd edition.



Clay

Dashofpepper wrote:Alright....nine hours later and I'm home! I took today off from work as well (calendar year is April 1) and I have vacation to burn or I lose it. And I'm going to lose most of it anyway. ><

@Gorkamorka:

In terms of my $125, they didn't have any kans or I would have bought them. I have three battlewagons with rollas, and a 4th battlewagon unassembled new in the box, so definitely no need for another battlewagon, let alone trukks, of which I have a total of five. I'm torn on the kans - if I use them, I need mobs of foot-slogging boys to support them, which I don't have (I have them painted in units of 12, with one unit of 20 for battlewagon stuff), so a kan-wall isn't really within the scope of my abilities right now. I *do* have three kans already, so I can field a unit of them if I want to. I'm going to have to do some thinking for 'Ard Boyz - I've also been contemplating a unit of kannons, and I have all the kannons and zzap guns from my battlewagons that I could mount on wheels. My dark eldar army is fleshed out, and I could easily fit 2500-3000 points with what I have painted and ready to go....not that I'd ever actually play them at that point level, Orks do so much better. I have 7-10k points worth of Tau, and will probably never play them again, so need for anything there. And Blood Angels aren't out yet, or I'd consider them. All in all, seems best to keep it as store credit. I can spend it on kans later, or use it to get new dark eldar when they come out....I have options. And in terms of the buggies....I am *also* split on them. I don't really know what to say here except that they need more play-testing.

@ICB:

Thanks for the kind words. See you around on Vassal/Skype.

@starbomber109:

Absolutely - they drew fire that could have hurt other things badly, but a twin-linked rokkit with a buzzsaw that can cross a lot of ground quickly is an immediate threat, and ignoring them is *also* perilous. Giving my opponents very tough choices to make is my goal.

@ibushi:

Have we played? I don't recognize your screen name from anywhere, although I might know you from somewhere else.

@Kevin Nash:

I agree with your thoughts on solid but imperfect lists. Honestly, it isn't hard to look at my list and say the same; it has some glaring flaws of its own. The Ork on Ork action was *really* fun and pumped me up. I miscalculated a few times in that game, which I think I pointed out - I've never actually played against a kan-wall before - I was expecting to deffrolla through them and do serious damage, but he kept them behind his orks....so I was going to deffrolla through the orks to get to the kans behind them, but never really got the chance simply because of how the game played out. In terms of Primarch needing deffkoptas....I'm not so sure. I honestly don't think they would have helped him against my list. I have enough shooting to threaten them myself, and my five Loota units would have had fun with that one, along with the random big shootas in my own army - and with his inability to threaten my wagons at range, I would have been happy to move 6" per turn to drop the koptas from the get-go. Even if I ignored them, they'd be needing 6+ to hit with only three attacks each while I'm moving, and if I don't get first turn, I deploy my battlewagons back and use my own deffkoptas and warbuggies to provide a physical screen that the koptas can't bypass to get to my wagons. And I definitely agree with you that game2 was critical in terms of the mission and me going first.

@Dainty Twerp:

I enjoy getting out to play. However, deffrollas really *aren't* the big, nasty threats that people think they are. There's some good analysis elsewhere with statistical probabilities, comparisons to melta-guns, etc. Between all three of my games, my deffrollas killed a Soul Grinder (which I didn't need the deff-rolla to do - he died on the ram anyway, the deffrolla never got to hit), killed a couple of guardsmen in a vet squad, and killed a couple of killa-kans on turn5 of another game. That doesn't strike me as overpowered. While it is theoretically possible for someone to smash through multiple land raiders and all that jazz....that stuff doesn't happen. All Deffrollas are is a secondary tank-busting backup plan.

@MasterSlowPoke:

Jacksonville. There are/were four FLGS in Jacksonville, FL - I played primarily at one and had great experiences. I made the mistake of attending another store's RTT very early in my career and *much* drama ensued, primarily involving one person, and a bunch of his fanboys that have a 32 page thread calling me every name in the book. That drama followed me a bit to North Carolina, where some equally rude folks started a second chapter of it. If you want some entertaining reading, my name is Shelix elsewhere on the internetz, and here you can find Hours of Entertaining Reading/Flaming

@Sergeant Horse:

I don't play Fantasy, just 40k. Eventually I may pick up another gaming system, but I need to master one before looking for a second. And pink orks tabling people has been a fun pastime for quite a while now.

@Warboss:

I've never heard of seizing on a 1 instead of a 6 - I can't think of any reason anyone would do it either.

@Primarch:

Like I said elsewhere - great to meet you, good to make a new friend and I look forward to future rematches on Vassal and locally.

@Culler:

I tend to agree that mech orks trump foot orks - I wouldn't be afraid to throw a trukk boy mob at a foot-slogging mob twice the size simply because I'd get to go first, and with a 12" move, 6" fleet, 6" assault (before we even get into disembarking tricks) and furious charge.

Also, Ghazghkull's charge range is something that no one really expects. Even knowing that he has a 30" assault radius - which I'm sure Primarch did, it is still unbelievable to see it happen on the table. I *did* roll a 5 or 6 where it counted for his slow and purposeful except in game 2 when he rolled 4 as the highest when I needed a 5.

The difference the Coptas would have made in our game would have been huge Dash. Think about it, if I had scout/turboboosted then stolen the initiative with 3 Coptas, then I would have charged your BW line on my turn 1, auto-hitting, and penning on 4s. Assuming same deployment of course. Now, without stealing the initiative, then sure it would have been different.

Anyway, too many what ifs. It is what it is, I didn't bring any, you spanked me pretty good....I'm ok with it. Good win.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

The difference the Coptas would have made in our game would have been huge Dash. Think about it, if I had scout/turboboosted then stolen the initiative with 3 Coptas, then I would have charged your BW line on my turn 1, auto-hitting, and penning on 4s. Assuming same deployment of course. Now, without stealing the initiative, then sure it would have been different.

Anyway, too many what ifs. It is what it is, I didn't bring any, you spanked me pretty good....I'm ok with it. Good win.


Clay

I mentioned this somewhere else in here about the koptas - they *are* pretty easy to defeat. Ork deffkoptas and IG vendetta alpha strike get the same response from me - my battlewagons deploy on the back table edge, and my warbuggies / deffkoptas (even Lootas if I need to) deploy ahead, so that the scout move gets you 12" away from my stuff, but still 14-18" away from my battlewagons - and since you can't fly over an enemy unit on the assault to get at stuff behind them, you can pretty easily screen off deffkoptas / alpha striking vendettas from getting to the wagons with some basic deployment tricks. Be happy to show you on vassal.

Thats why I said that IF the deployment stayed the same. Sure you can beat it, I get that.


However, would you deploy that way knowing you had the first turn, or would you deploy on the off chance that I rolled that 6 to steal initiative?



Clay

All three reports and your continued smashing of non-orky opponents makes us Waagh!!!ers proud!

Keep up the good work Dash (and don't get anymore deffrolla smack talk).

Another great report, Dash, and congratulations on the victory. If you want to continue your travels, I'm sure the UK would love to play host for a few games... And if you've not been to Warhammer World yet (GW HQ) the you should, it's pretty special!

Even if deffkoptas force you to deploy differently that's still a big win for the Kan Wall. If you are screening with lootas then he just assaults your lootas and ties them up taking them out of the fight instead. If you screen with buggies the buggies are dead. If you shield all your wagons with your own units they now have tarred themselves and have issues getting across the table.

Another option for deffkoptas is they are reserved and outflank for a 12" move and 6" charge off the side before you get a shot off. If you are in the center of the table they can still maintain distance and either draw an assault of at least get a rockitt shot off before closing the following turn.

Aside from the bikerz (and I can't tell how many PK's he had) he had really no way of taking out your wagons short of putting lootas in the corners and praying for side shots. Deffkoptas are one answer to that. Another answer would be buggies which can position themselves to get side shots. That also works. Once deffrollas hit a kan line it's over.

I think Dash had the better list here because I think deffrolla wagons are incredible and given a choice between wagons spam and Kan wall I'm playing wagon spam. That said I think Kan Wall is a solid list but I think Primarch's list was flawed although to be fair it was kind of a tough matchup for him so it's easy to poke holes in it after reading the rep 1) He didn't have enough KFF coverage, 1 KFF can't cover 9 Kanz and I think that's crucial to the list. I realize you wanted a mobile scoring nob unit (which this list also needs) so you wanted a warboss to unlock that but I think I would cut 3 Kanz before just having 3 Kanz in the list uncovered 2) He had the lootas for great anti tank but then went up against AV 14 Wagons. Sucks for him. 3) His Kanz didn't have Rockitts or KMB, I would have used those over grotzookas so you have a good chance to pierce wagon side armor before they crash into your lines 4) Continuing that concept he didn't have enough ways to get into wagon side armor. Biker Nobz are actually a means to do this, but as mentioned deffkoptas with rockitts and buzzsaws or even rockitt buggies would have been another way to achieve that. 5) He should have been using shoota boyz in this list not choppy boyz (I can't tell if that impacted the matchup).

The idea behind Kan wall is to keep the boyz behind the kanz and shoot with everything with 4+ cover. Then if your opponent tries to crash into your boyz they have to get through kanz first. That said the boy screen may have been smart considering he was facing down deffrollas which pretty much crush kanz barring Death of Glory. Maybe someone can run the math on that and determine if you should screen the kanz here or just go for DOG instead.

Anywayz Primarch's list was not my best Kan Wall list ever could be made list. However, it was a good list and frankly was better than some of the junk I see at the final tables of some RTT's around here. So I don't want to come off as saying his list sucks or something or that Dash didn't beat a good list. I'm just explaining what I mean when I saw "flawed"

Dashofpepper wrote: I have 7-10k points worth of Tau, and will probably never play them again...

:(

One question about your list: how did those small Loota squads come off? For my untrained eye they look as easy kill points and too small to have serious firepower but how did they work in real play? Or was their point to act as a distraction of sort which enemy would have to target at some point? I'm asking also because as I recall, your "Ork philosophy" was to commit 100% to whatever the list is meant to do (horde, shooty, mech assault).

Kevin Nash wrote:
Even if deffkoptas force you to deploy differently that's still a big win for the Kan Wall. If you are screening with lootas then he just assaults your lootas and ties them up taking them out of the fight instead. If you screen with buggies the buggies are dead. If you shield all your wagons with your own units they now have tarred themselves and have issues getting across the table.

Another option for deffkoptas is they are reserved and outflank for a 12" move and 6" charge off the side before you get a shot off. If you are in the center of the table they can still maintain distance and either draw an assault of at least get a rockitt shot off before closing the following turn.

Aside from the bikerz (and I can't tell how many PK's he had) he had really no way of taking out your wagons short of putting lootas in the corners and praying for side shots. Deffkoptas are one answer to that. Another answer would be buggies which can position themselves to get side shots. That also works. Once deffrollas hit a kan line it's over.

I think Dash had the better list here because I think deffrolla wagons are incredible and given a choice between wagons spam and Kan wall I'm playing wagon spam. That said I think Kan Wall is a solid list but I think Primarch's list was flawed although to be fair it was kind of a tough matchup for him so it's easy to poke holes in it after reading the rep 1) He didn't have enough KFF coverage, 1 KFF can't cover 9 Kanz and I think that's crucial to the list. I realize you wanted a mobile scoring nob unit (which this list also needs) so you wanted a warboss to unlock that but I think I would cut 3 Kanz before just having 3 Kanz in the list uncovered 2) He had the lootas for great anti tank but then went up against AV 14 Wagons. Sucks for him. 3) His Kanz didn't have Rockitts or KMB, I would have used those over grotzookas so you have a good chance to pierce wagon side armor before they crash into your lines 4) Continuing that concept he didn't have enough ways to get into wagon side armor. Biker Nobz are actually a means to do this, but as mentioned deffkoptas with rockitts and buzzsaws or even rockitt buggies would have been another way to achieve that. 5) He should have been using shoota boyz in this list not choppy boyz (I can't tell if that impacted the matchup).

The idea behind Kan wall is to keep the boyz behind the kanz and shoot with everything with 4+ cover. Then if your opponent tries to crash into your boyz they have to get through kanz first. That said the boy screen may have been smart considering he was facing down deffrollas which pretty much crush kanz barring Death of Glory. Maybe someone can run the math on that and determine if you should screen the kanz here or just go for DOG instead.

Anywayz Primarch's list was not my best Kan Wall list ever could be made list. However, it was a good list and frankly was better than some of the junk I see at the final tables of some RTT's around here. So I don't want to come off as saying his list sucks or something or that Dash didn't beat a good list. I'm just explaining what I mean when I saw "flawed"

Yeah, I agree with most of what you said here. Basically, I had never played against a BW spam list, and I knew that the minute he crashed those 3 BWs into my Kanz they were all dead or going to be severely crushed. Also, every dead Kan on a roll of 6, could kill a decent amount of boyz behind it. That's why I tried the set up the way I did. The Grotzookas are amazing against foot based lists, and that's why I have them. In the end though, they were mostly worthless in this game because of the 14 armor. I had my Lootas on the flanks hoping for flank BW shots, and I got a few, but rolled pretty badly and got no Pens or Glances with them.

Also, my normal Kan wall list does not include Biker Nobz, but there is a guy who plays a lot of Dual Seer Council, and I was trying to counter that somewhat. Since the Seer Council just wrecks Orks mostly, I was trying something new on the off chance I faced him.

I am one of only maybe 2-3 guys playing Orks in the Atlanta area, and one of 2 who ventures outside my own store to play other places. That being said, I hadn't run into a true BW spam list with all those DRs, so I tried some funky deployment and tactics with a list I'd never fielded. Learned a few things though, and will be better prepared next time.



Clay

Congrats on the wins. Had a thoroughly good read. And it's great to see you are expanding your territory. Good luck in all future tourneys.

Backfire wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: I have 7-10k points worth of Tau, and will probably never play them again...

:(

One question about your list: how did those small Loota squads come off? For my untrained eye they look as easy kill points and too small to have serious firepower but how did they work in real play? Or was their point to act as a distraction of sort which enemy would have to target at some point? I'm asking also because as I recall, your "Ork philosophy" was to commit 100% to whatever the list is meant to do (horde, shooty, mech assault).

I typically run full sized units, but Kevin convinced me about the 5/15 argument. I had a unit of two Lootas explode a vendetta. 5 is enough to damage a transport, and they have a 33% chance of getting 3 shots each, or 15 STR7 shots for 75 points. 15 Lootas seem to have LoS issues - even Primarch running a kan wall had LoS issues with shooting me with 2-3 Lootas per turn, and I think 15 Lootas into a single transport is definitely effective, but overkill - I don't want to spend 225 points killing a rhino.

By taking units of 5, I have 300 more points to spend on other anti-tank....that's a large part of what paid for my nobs.

Can anyone explain why the opponet would choose to use the first line of boyz as a sacrificial unit, rather than using the kans as the first line of defense?
I definitely thought the kans would serve to be a better source of first line defense, so that the rest of his boys can counter assault the next turn. I thought the opponent actually didnt play very well.