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I'm still trying to decide what army I want to drop $500 on, and I'm making some lists for Witch Hunters. I like the Immolator as transport for a Canoness and her retinue, but I'm concerned that the HS slots might get a bit tight in larger games, at Exorcists are going to be pretty essential. Since it's a Razorback equivalent, does anyone count Immolators as DT's instead of HS, or play with someone who does? Does it seem like it would be kosher for friendly games?

Dude, *WHFB* /= WH40K

No, oddly enough giving you free immolators desnt generally go down well, as theyre the best transport in the game, just about. So my suggestion: grab squads that CAN take them as DT

Gah, all the forum names look similar. I'll ask a mod to move it, thanks.

It can be taken as a DT for the Canoness and her retinue-- it's a transport option for Celestians.

Celestians and Dominions can take them as DT's. Given enough points, you can field 11 of them in a single FOC.

kartofelkopf wrote:It can be taken as a DT for the Canoness and her retinue-- it's a transport option for Celestians.

Celestians and Dominions can take them as DT's. Given enough points, you can field 11 of them in a single FOC.

Oh, very cool. I assumed that, because it had a separate entry in the HS section, it counted as HS regardless. Thanks much.

Retributors can take them as well, which is a bit weird because they are a HS option too!

Immolators rock. Stuff as many into your army as you can.

Yeah, I may have to go Witch Hunters. Two Power Swords and two Meltaguns inside a tank than can move 12" and still drop a TL Heavy Flamer. That's gonna lay down some hurt.

Don't bother with the CC... pack an Immolator with four flamers and 2 one-shot flamers instead. ;-)

Spetulhu wrote:Don't bother with the CC... pack an Immolator with four flamers and 2 one-shot flamers instead. ;-)

Rabble Rabble you can't fire flamers from a non-open-topped-transport

Gwar! wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Don't bother with the CC... pack an Immolator with four flamers and 2 one-shot flamers instead. ;-)

Rabble Rabble you can't fire flamers from a non-open-topped-transport

This problem came up earlier in a game. Where does it say this, so I have full shove-it-in-your-face potential for next time around?

Nightwatch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Don't bother with the CC... pack an Immolator with four flamers and 2 one-shot flamers instead. ;-)

Rabble Rabble you can't fire flamers from a non-open-topped-transport

This problem came up earlier in a game. Where does it say this, so I have full shove-it-in-your-face potential for next time around?

It's in the Template weapon rules. You cannot place the Template so that even the tiniest sliver is touching a Friendly model. Since the fire Point has a small bit of hull between it and the edge of the tank...

Gwar! wrote:It's in the Template weapon rules. You cannot place the Template so that even the tiniest sliver is touching a Friendly model. Since the fire Point has a small bit of hull between it and the edge of the tank...

Problem with this is that the heavy flamers don't extend all the way over the hull either. RAW fail.

Mr. Bluesky wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's in the Template weapon rules. You cannot place the Template so that even the tiniest sliver is touching a Friendly model. Since the fire Point has a small bit of hull between it and the edge of the tank...

Problem with this is that the heavy flamers don't extend all the way over the hull either. RAW fail.

Yup, Immolators can never fire

Don't bother with flamers in the vehicle, anyways. Go with melta guns. The unit+transport becomes a more versatile tool, and with everyone all meched up, the meltas will definitely come in handy.

The 4+2 flamers are ofc supposed to disembark in a most convenient place and fry anything within range of their templates. The Green Tide from Apoc comes to mind. ;-)

Gwar is incorrect. No where in the rules does it state that a model counts as being friendly to itself, which would prevent the use of flamer weapons being used from vehicles. When you follow the rules as written, the transport is treated as the firer for template placement and range measurement with the fire point treat as the weapon mount.

If, however, you decide to treat models as being friendly to themselves, then certain legal weapon options available on vehicles from recent codexes would also be unusable.

Given that GW has declined to write rules that do not require common sense to play, we can only make it work as written and with as much common sense as can be found.

SJ

I guess you were being sarcastic Gwar?

Limey wrote:I guess you were being sarcastic Gwar?

No, I am being sincere. jeffersonian000 is completely wrong. By his logic, things that affect "Friendly units" would never be able to affect the squad causing that effect (e.g. Orders, Fortune etc)

By the same logic would a model with a flamer, where the flamer nozzle is within the 'magic cylinder' of the base, be unable to fire as the template would touch its own base - whereas if the nozzle was outside the cylinder, it would be fine?

Modelling for advantage FTW!!!!!

Chimera_Calvin wrote:By the same logic would a model with a flamer, where the flamer nozzle is within the 'magic cylinder' of the base, be unable to fire as the template would touch its own base - whereas if the nozzle was outside the cylinder, it would be fine?

Modelling for advantage FTW!!!!!

No, because the rules for Templates indicate you fire it from the base for non-vehicle models, how the Weapon itself is modeled is inconsequential.

Not got the rulebook with me but would be interested to see the specfic wording.

If it says the firer has to place the template in base contact with itself (given that all models whose bases are touched by the template are affected) then without a specific exemption RAW would indicate no flamer-armed model could ever fire...

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Not got the rulebook with me but would be interested to see the specfic wording.

If it says the firer has to place the template in base contact with itself (given that all models whose bases are touched by the template are affected) then without a specific exemption RAW would indicate no flamer-armed model could ever fire...

Again, wrong. The Template rules state:

Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models.

Therefore, you have specific permission to allow the template to touch the firing model, but no other friendly models. It then goes on to state:

Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.

Thus, models only "touching" the Template are not hit, meaning the model does not hit itself.

I have to agree with Jefersonian000.

Limey wrote:I have to agree with Jefersonian000.

Care to explain why, considering I have just spelled out the RaW for everyone to see?

Gwar! is, as usual, right about the RAW. Template starts from the base and therefore does not end up over the firing model, so it's a non-issue.

Flamers from fire points I'm not going to touch, partially because I'm not running them in my list, but seeing as GW made a model with a mounted template weapon, I'm going to venture that RAI allow the Immolator to fire its turret, at least.

Take a dominion squad, then put a Canoness in. Or get Celestine.

Gwar! wrote: The Template rules state:

Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models.

Therefore, you have specific permission to allow the template to touch the firing model, but no other friendly models.

Doesn't that mean Immolators place it at the base of their model?


(and yes I know vehicles fire from their guns, but again, the above is a special rule for template weapons)

Timmah wrote:

Gwar! wrote: The Template rules state:

Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models.

Therefore, you have specific permission to allow the template to touch the firing model, but no other friendly models.

Doesn't that mean Immolators place it at the base of their model?


(and yes I know vehicles fire from their guns, but again, the above is a special rule for template weapons)

And vehicles have an even more special rule for firing Template Weapons.

Do they? I thought they just had the general, fire from the gun rule.