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I was recently playing against my friend who fields CSM. The question came up as to why Terminators are exactly the same as regular space marines except that they have 1+ A, 1+ L, and a 2+ SV. Now I can see that an additional attack and leadership is because they are veteran and their armor save is 2+ because its terminator. But shouldn't they have other higher stats like wounds (since it is harder to penetrate the armor) or strength and toughness (again making the reference to the terminator armor being superior to the regular power armor). Also their weapons skill should be higher because it take centuries to become and elite wearer of terminator armor and during all of that fighting they are honing their marksmanship to become better?

I am not talking about making terminators walking invincible death spitting characters but giving credit where credit is due giving them a boost from their less superior battle brothers.

What do you guys think?

Garvil_Loken wrote: The question came up as to why Terminators are exactly the same as regular space marines except that they have 1+ A, 1+ L, and a 2+ SV.

The answer being that the 1-10 scale used for stats in 40K means that one point accounts for a wide variance in ability. Yes, Terminators are Veterans, with more training than other marines... but it's not enough of a difference to be worth a whole extra point, in the same way that Orks, whilst physically superior fluff-wise, have the same Strength as a human.

But shouldn't they have other higher stats like wounds (since it is harder to penetrate the armor)

The difficulty of penetrating the armour is accounted for by the armour save.

The Ld+1, A+1 accounts for their extra decades or even centuries of experience.

The +2 attack used to be because of the fact that they had Terminator armor in the first place, but that was phased out from 4th - 5th edition, and sort of only applys to veterans now.

Before if you got terminator armor for a character then they got the 1+ attack, either that or it was the terminator honors...

40K has a fairly chunky range of stats used to represent a wildly disparate range of creatures. Attempting to simulate the fine details of fluff with stat boosts is impossible, and will produce a poorer game. It's more or less what went wrong with 2nd ed.

Instead, you need to look at how units operate in play. I don't know too many people who find terminators unable to rip apart regular marines in assault, which is exactly as it should be.

Yeah I guess you guys are right. It just seems to me when I look at the stats and more than half are the same it just turns me away from them. But then again I haven't had the playing experience equivalent to you guys. I still think that they should get 1 more wound point.

I agree that termies(at least CSM ones) need +1 WS +1 BS

You also have to look at what this would equate them to. What would your changes make a Terminator look like next to a Space Marine Captain who is supposed to be Capt. B-A? Ok, simple fix we just boost up the SM Capt. but wait now the other armies are complaining about their elietes and HQ's not getting enough attention. Fine we've improved them and now the Troops are useless and everyone ends up cannon fodder in a fight. So lets boost up the troops but hold on the normal SM is too close in stats to the Terminator again...

The only thing that CSM termies need is to be replaced with Obliterators in your army list.

CompGeek, I'm not following your logic. In the same way that it takes something like thirty years as a scout to get up to WS 4, it takes the centuries of experience accrued in the process of earning Terminator Honours to arrive at WS 5. The captain is WS 6, representing the height of space marine combat skill. I don't see him needing a boost at this point.

Frankly, I agree that Terminators, as the best of the best of the warriors that humankind has to offer, are a little underwhelming, being about as skilled fighters as the average, six-point ork. WS 5 is at least justifiable flavor-wise, putting them right on par with company champions (although the only thing I see you necessarily upgrading at that point would be the honour guard). As for BS 5, I'm not sure they need it. Yes, they are probably expert marksmen at that level, but at that point you're looking at a cost increase, especially given the whole variety of fun shooting they have.

Also, FYI Termis and Oblits perform completely different battlefield functions.

Tau battlesuits confer +2 S, +1 T and +1 W; are they so much better equipped than terminators? Broadsides even have 2+ save like terminators; of course, they're slow gunboats and comparatively expensive..

Heck, even bikes give you +1 T.

Considering wargear prices and everything, termies should TECHNICALLY be 60-80pts. I mean, termy armour and a powerfist would be 5-10pts more than a termy is now, and tbh they work well for 40pts. I think they're 40pts because noone would buy them otherwise, and their cost is appropriate for how they perform in-game, but it should be more by proper pts standards, except then they would suck and fail.

I have often wondered about this, and come to the same decision as the people who say "not enough difference to make a stat change". Tbh, we're lucky termies are as good as they are, pt for pt. And WS5 is reserved for the GK's and their foreseeable new codex, but I think SM should have more WS5 things, especially Honour guard. They need a stat boost, as they would provide the bridge between veteran and captain. So when GW releases the next SM codex (2 years or so, along with new rulebook) I definitely want honour guard WS and BS 5. But that's another topic.

Having skipped everything since second edition, I have to admit to being somewhat underwhelmed by Terminators' current stat profiles on my recent return to action. Although experience shows stats to be somewhat overrated in terms of actual functionality, and that terminators are perfectly capable of carrying out their duties with their current attributes; fluffwise I find it hard to accept that +1A and +1LD are an adequate representation of a hardcore elite troop's superiority over the - admittedly not run-of-the-mill - rank and file of standard marines.

I don't personally think an extra point in WS or BS would be gamebreaking. Perhaps the option to buy an extra point in one or the other, depending on what you're planning for the unit, would endear these poor neglected veterans more redily to the general in question; though that's something I just pulled out of my ass and contravenes the less-is-more approach to complexity.

Legion.

My argument before wasn't about the fluff. Based on the non-BL fluff your standard SM should have 2 Wounds and some kind of ability to regenerate, cost twice as much and another boost to all of his stats. If you want to argue fluff though I could counter with virtually ALL of the HH books mentioning the limitations on mobility that the tactical dreadnought armor (Termie armor) puts on a person. Try shooting a target with even just the wrist of your shooting hand wrapped in a brace, now try boxing with that. While it's fair to assume that in all of this time a fighting style while wearing the Terminator armor might evolve, I'm saying that the style isn't any more effective then the standard Space Marine HtH.

My arguement was about game balance. Terminators are walking tanks as it is, the reason those of you who use them see them killed so often is because your opponent knows what they can do when given the chance so we include them in the prioritized list of targets we all make in our heads. A stat boost would be cool but you could say that about everything in WH40K.

I have to side with Legion as far as offering an upgrade. Buying the extra points would be a good idea. Imagine if you will Terminator honors coming back but instead you have things like Terminator Marksmanship Awards: +1 BS for the squad, Terminator Combat Awards: +1WS for the squad and so on. This could be a workable mechanic and would help to specialize the units a little more.

Tau Battle suits are mechs not just uber-armor. I think they are justified in their bonus.

If that happened, Lysander would be slightly more useless, chaos termies would look stupid until they got another update, and 2+ to hit assault cannons and storm bolters would destroyer all hordes and others besides. I think that would make them unfair, and it would mean that TH/SS vulcan termies would usually be hitting on a 2+ with a reroll.

I think just having 2 wounds and increasing them by 5 -10 points would be ideal. Forget the WS and BS Termies hit and shoot well enough as it is I just think they are too vulnerable with 1W especially as a Chaplain and a Librarian get 2W and before people jump on me for saying that a Chaplain can be less experienced than a Vet in the fluff (and he also has higher WS) and a Librarian is just a SM with physcic ability he isn't necessarily tougher.

Yeah, well if you want more 'real' types of characters... well I don't think there's a decent game out there.

But GW with its codexs generalizes all units: All captains are more or less the same, all space marines are the same. It is possible that a normal marine might deserve WS5 depending on the marine in question, but in a game of 40k each individual marine doesn't have his own distinct skills and stuff, if you see what I'm getting at.

GW say "all libbys and chappys are better than termy vets"
If we played by your rules it would be "all termies are as good as/better than all libbys chappys"

Hence, it really doesn't help to make things any more realistic.

Ed_Bodger wrote

I think just having 2 wounds and increasing them by 5 -10 points would be ideal. Forget the WS and BS Termies hit and shoot well enough as it is I just think they are too vulnerable with 1W especially as a Chaplain and a Librarian get 2W and before people jump on me for saying that a Chaplain can be less experienced than a Vet in the fluff (and he also has higher WS) and a Librarian is just a SM with physcic ability he isn't necessarily tougher.

This is exactly what I am getting at. It will put more strategy to where you deep strike you terminators because the have the wounds to survive being thrown into the fray. This will also make termicide tactics a bit different by having the terminators actually worth the 215 points (DA codex without any upgrades) instead of cannon fodder and a distraction like imperial guard are. I have no problem with where the regular SM stats are at just the fact the terminators are easier to kill than I would expect from a walking tank.

I am really familiar to the fluff because I only read Warhammer 40k books but when the books describe a terminator in battle they take all kinds of hits that would normally mortally wound regular space marines. For example Soul Drinkers book "chapter war" a SD terminator with a AC is laying down covering fire for the chapter master to retreat. The terminator takes a direct hit from a plasma cannon right in the gut. The shot melts the armor and spills his guts everywhere. With his free hand and still firing and non stop shoves his intestines back into his ruined torso and continues to fight. this terminator dies of course because he runs out of ammo but still a direct hit from a plasma cannon and still fights. This is what I want my terminators like. There are more examples but i will leave it at that.

Legion wrote:Having skipped everything since second edition, I have to admit to being somewhat underwhelmed by Terminators' current stat profiles on my recent return to action. Although experience shows stats to be somewhat overrated in terms of actual functionality, and that terminators are perfectly capable of carrying out their duties with their current attributes; fluffwise I find it hard to accept that +1A and +1LD are an adequate representation of a hardcore elite troop's superiority over the - admittedly not run-of-the-mill - rank and file of standard marines.

Yeah, this is really the type of game design we’re seeing in this thread that I think is a mistake – focussing on stat comparisons instead of how the unit works in play. There is no fluff basis needed for a number on a piece of paper – in the 40K universe there’s no such number, no terminator ever thought of himself as being WS 4 because that’s just an abstraction we use.

What does matter is how the unit actually works in game, how that WS number combines with their initiative, strength, attacks and gear in combat.

I don't personally think an extra point in WS or BS would be gamebreaking. Perhaps the option to buy an extra point in one or the other, depending on what you're planning for the unit, would endear these poor neglected veterans more redily to the general in question; though that's something I just pulled out of my ass and contravenes the less-is-more approach to complexity.

The game has had problems in the past with army lists offering complimentary options separately. In this case buying an assault cannon is complimented strongly by buying increased BS. The previous tyranid codex had this issue in spades, it looked great because you had all these options but at the end of the the BS increase was mandatory for a shooting ‘fex and a complete waste for a melee ‘fex.

The problem comes with how you price two upgrades separately when separately they’re worth only a little, but in combination they’re awesome. Giving them separate values will mean you’ve either overpriced them individually, or underpriced them in combination. Either way the result is that people either take both or neither, rendering the ‘option’ non-existant.

Note the new ‘nid dropped the lists of upgrades in favour of a greater range of genuinely unique units.

A few more options would never hurt of course, but honestly, from a CSM perspective at least, terminator flexibility isn't what we should be losing sleep over.

Terminators are just Veterans in different army. They explain this right in the Codex. Just like a Captain's Guard, or a Chapter Master's Honour Guard (who are older, better and more experienced than 1st Company members, reflected in +1 Ld). Their armour is a pretty good stat and the Storm Shield verges on brokenness in actual play.

If terminators get any stat boost I would say make it a boost in the Attacks to make it more balanced like the ork nobs i played recently who get something like 3-4 attacks. you cant tell me that orks are more skilled in the art of attack than a SM.

With Orks it's never about skill. They ARE more aggressive then any other species in the galaxy though.

They just kinda go crazy and swing their weapons wildly. Plus, nobs ARE as large and tough as your average space marine if I'm thinking right... and the fact that their not in armor would allow them to speed up their attacks. So it makes sense.

Terminators are bad because I play IG and they way I kill them is with Lasguns.Look at it what would you rather have 8 guardsmen or a terminator.The 8 guards men will win almost every time.That is not how it should be it should take alot more men to kill a vet who has been fighting for 100s of years and has the best armor mankind has.

Pvt. Jet wrote:They just kinda go crazy and swing their weapons wildly. Plus, nobs ARE as large and tough as your average space marine if I'm thinking right... and the fact that their not in armor would allow them to speed up their attacks. So it makes sense.

If they are just swinging wildly wouldn't that reduce their weapon skill significantly then? And yes the terminators are in heavy armor so it would slow them on the attack, but wouldn't the armor give them extra toughness other than an invulnerable save if its supposedly so tough?

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Pvt. Jet wrote:They just kinda go crazy and swing their weapons wildly. Plus, nobs ARE as large and tough as your average space marine if I'm thinking right... and the fact that their not in armor would allow them to speed up their attacks. So it makes sense.

If they are just swinging wildly wouldn't that reduce their weapon skill significantly then? And yes the terminators are in heavy armor so it would slow them on the attack, but wouldn't the armor give them extra toughness other than an invulnerable save if its supposedly so tough?

Ey, if you're on Dakka then surely you should know GW toned everything down. Otherwise, SM's would be made fluff-good and then the rest of the GW products would have to be upped. Then people would still say that SM's were too weak and so on and so forth. 40k is watered down fluff.

If you want proper marines, play Inquisitor.

Anyways, the Nobz possible five attacks on the charge is a result of their aggression and ferocity, and they have WS4 because CC is the area of combat that they more or less solely train in... if they even train.

I've never thought of Orks as training but rather it's like they don't stop swinging until you stop breathing. If you have ever boxed amatuer league (I train in Muay Thai) then you know the kind of fighter that an Ork is supposed to represent. The technique is dominating in points if you can keep your stamina\energy up because you're controlling your opponenet by keeping them on the defensive which is more fatiguing then just raining punches. You don't see this kind of thing in the pro circuts very often because they are prone to dropping their defense and getting "clipped" by someone who is faster and more accurate.

To rate this style of fighting for an Ork I would consider:
- First and foremost its effectivness. WS:Trained and above average
- Next the fact that you are providing more oppertunities for the knockout. A:Above Average
- Last the fact that your scoring quantity over quality of strikes so it takes longer for you to wear your opponenet and score that final hit. I:Below Average

I think the Ork statline reflects this appropriatly.

Yeah lots of good opinions. I still believe that terminators still should get another wound or toughness stat because I mean they are the best of the best when it comes to Space marine armor... I remember reading Horus Heresy when the Justaerin terminator squad of the Luna wolves walked (they didn't even run or battle march just walked) right across the bridge and be shelled my all kinds of tanks. Not even the Leman Russes couldn't survive the firepower the fortress was shelling out. Not a single casualty was inflicted upon the Justaerin squad. Just another example of how terminators really should be.

Garvil_Loken wrote:Yeah lots of good opinions. I still believe that terminators still should get another wound or toughness stat because I mean they are the best of the best when it comes to Space marine armor... I remember reading Horus Heresy when the Justaerin terminator squad of the Luna wolves walked (they didn't even run or battle march just walked) right across the bridge and be shelled my all kinds of tanks. Not even the Leman Russes couldn't survive the firepower the fortress was shelling out. Not a single casualty was inflicted upon the Justaerin squad. Just another example of how terminators really should be.

*sigh* I really wish people would get the picture when I say Terminators, and Space Marines in general, are watered down.

Besides, I think they work fine in the game at the 40pts you pay for them. Sure, another wound woul be nice, but would that really be worth it for say, 10 or 20pts more? Possibly. But it would make current lists, especially Vulcan lists, have to rework their army because they're loosing another 100pts odd.

Hjoey75 wrote:Terminators are bad because I play IG and they way I kill them is with Lasguns.Look at it what would you rather have 8 guardsmen or a terminator.The 8 guards men will win almost every time.That is not how it should be it should take alot more men to kill a vet who has been fighting for 100s of years and has the best armor mankind has.

To the extent that the game consisted of single groups of models lining up in a straight line away from an enemy unit of equal value, then you'd be right.

But there is tremendous value in the ability to concentrate elite troops into a small part of the board, while an equal number of IG would have to be much more spread out. But the bigger issue is that terminators can assault a range of targets, most of whom are far pricier than a guardsman but about as effective in combat against them.

So yes, if the terminators are content to wander about the battlefield taking the odd casualty from massed lasgun fire while plinking back with their storm bolters then the guardsmen are great. But if that's the case the the Space Marine player has much bigger problems than the terminators.


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Darkvoidof40k wrote:*sigh* I really wish people would get the picture when I say Terminators, and Space Marines in general, are watered down.

Besides, I think they work fine in the game at the 40pts you pay for them. Sure, another wound woul be nice, but would that really be worth it for say, 10 or 20pts more? Possibly. But it would make current lists, especially Vulcan lists, have to rework their army because they're loosing another 100pts odd.

Yeah, the big thing to remember is that 40K simply cannot set itself to represent the fluff in the books. First of all because the fluff is all over the place, depending on who's writing it and what units are the protagonists in the story.

But in general the incredible abilities given to the Space Marines in the books simply cannot be realised as a playable army in 40K.