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If everything was fluff based space marines would be toughness erm a lot etc etc. so GW cannot base models on fluff otherwise the only thing that could beart up a space marine would be another space marine or monstrous creature. But I do agree with giving them an extra wound purely because there's nothing worse than losing termies to either mass lasgun fire or any other form of massed weapons fire.

Thanks. My goal is purely just to get another wound for terminators.... i could care less about the other space marines because they are fine... but having a unit be 215 points without any upgrades i want something that will last.

Garvil_Loken wrote:Thanks. My goal is purely just to get another wound for terminators.... i could care less about the other space marines because they are fine... but having a unit be 215 points without any upgrades i want something that will last.

They get upgrades. They get a 2+ save and a 5+ invulnerable. They get a stormbolter. They get a powerfist.

insaniak wrote:
The answer being that the 1-10 scale used for stats in 40K means that one point accounts for a wide variance in ability. Yes, Terminators are Veterans, with more training than other marines... but it's not enough of a difference to be worth a whole extra point, in the same way that Orks, whilst physically superior fluff-wise, have the same Strength as a human.

Sure we have a 1-10 scale, but what does it matter when there are barely anyone with WS7+? or for that matter, any units with BS6+?

Grey Knights are WS5... Our terminators are just better.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:My argument before wasn't about the fluff. Based on the non-BL fluff your standard SM should have 2 Wounds and some kind of ability to regenerate, cost twice as much and another boost to all of his stats.

I like to think of a Space Marines 'fluff regeneration' as simply thier ability to stand after a fight, get patched up and go on for another battle. it's like how heroes should be able to survive so many battles but you could easily imagine that even a Space Marine Chapter Master can't get up when he gets a huge crater in his torso from a Power Klaw or taking a lascannon shot that obliderates a leg clean off but his extra organs and such keep him alive for the Apothecaries (and possibly Techmarines) to get him back on the field

after all, how else could the Tactical Marines outnumber the Scouts?

Garvil_Loken wrote:Yeah lots of good opinions. I still believe that terminators still should get another wound or toughness stat because I mean they are the best of the best when it comes to Space marine armor... I remember reading Horus Heresy when the Justaerin terminator squad of the Luna wolves walked (they didn't even run or battle march just walked) right across the bridge and be shelled my all kinds of tanks. Not even the Leman Russes couldn't survive the firepower the fortress was shelling out. Not a single casualty was inflicted upon the Justaerin squad. Just another example of how terminators really should be.

well, in-game speaking, a Basilisk artillery cannons and Missile Launchers ARE AP3, it is well within a Terminators ability to survive those kind of attacks with a 2+ armour save

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Pvt. Jet wrote:They just kinda go crazy and swing their weapons wildly. Plus, nobs ARE as large and tough as your average space marine if I'm thinking right... and the fact that their not in armor would allow them to speed up their attacks. So it makes sense.

If they are just swinging wildly wouldn't that reduce their weapon skill significantly then?

in a Duel that could be considered grounds for less WS but on the battlefield you'll find that a bunch of mad monsters can use thier mass against the enemy ranks, the enemy had the chance toi run but they fired thier guns, now they're in melee and you don't have the space to show your induvidual prowess

Garvil_Loken wrote:I was recently playing against my friend who fields CSM. The question came up as to why Terminators are exactly the same as regular space marines except that they have 1+ A, 1+ L, and a 2+ SV. Now I can see that an additional attack and leadership is because they are veteran and their armor save is 2+ because its terminator. But shouldn't they have other higher stats like wounds (since it is harder to penetrate the armor) or strength and toughness (again making the reference to the terminator armor being superior to the regular power armor). Also their weapons skill should be higher because it take centuries to become and elite wearer of terminator armor and during all of that fighting they are honing their marksmanship to become better?

I am not talking about making terminators walking invincible death spitting characters but giving credit where credit is due giving them a boost from their less superior battle brothers.

What do you guys think?

Space Marines may have superior training and much more experience you need to realise that unlike a video game where [time training] is proportional to [phisical capabilities]. actually, to use a game as a reference, think about Morrowind, there were so many NPCs who were supposed to have much more experience than your character but you could become stronger than them in such a small fram of time, this is because those people were unable to process what they learned in their heads, the main characters meditation allowed him to truly understand how he could better himself, it's his mind set. which is why Terminators are stuck using the same techniques that they were taught long ago and Space Marine Captains have developed thier senses around the field of war

it's like Enlightenment for warriors, enlightenment being a difficult thing to grasp as you need more than knowledge to obtain it

Lotet wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:Space Marines may have superior training and much more experience you need to realise that unlike a video game where [time training] is proportional to [phisical capabilities]. actually, to use a game as a reference, think about Morrowind, there were so many NPCs who were supposed to have much more experience than your character but you could become stronger than them in such a small fram of time, this is because those people were unable to process what they learned in their heads, the main characters meditation allowed him to truly understand how he could better himself, it's his mind set. which is why Terminators are stuck using the same techniques that they were taught long ago and Space Marine Captains have developed thier senses around the field of war

it's like Enlightenment for warriors, enlightenment being a difficult thing to grasp as you need more than knowledge to obtain it

Sounds like an absolute load of BS to me

Well if you need marines with higher stat to off balance a game, then use the "movie-marine" dex. )

But I think terminators are decent enough as they are, although before I thought about the +1 wound or +1 toughness but that would totally upset the balance of the game tabletop wise because by logic it would mean that the captain or chaplain would need a boost to give them a more "leader" type statline

Actually, would it be too much to make it so that Terminators could also take their Invulnerable save against AP5, 6, and -- weapons?

You could keep them at their same cost and they'd be a bit more survivable against small arms. So this means that against small arms, they'd go from having a 16% chance of dying, (1 in 6) to about a 1 in 10 chance at having a 10.6% chance of dying.

So instead of 6 successful lasgun wounds, it would take 10.

Versus FRFSRF with 10 Imperial Armymen:

30 shots, 15 hit, 5 wounds. Normally, a Terminator would have about an 83% chance of dying, but with the added invulnerable save: a Terminator has about a 55% chance of dying. That's pretty dang good!

Of course this HAS the potential to create a slippery slope, but I doubt it.

I know we can't go back, but the old, old system of 3+ on 2d6 (with, gasp!, armor save modifiers!) worked really nicely in terms of representing what Terminator armor 'should' work like...

Ah, the good old days!

There has to be a solution somewhere withing the current 'modern' framework of rules.

I just haven't seen it yet.

At least, I don't think I have...

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:If everything was fluff based space marines would be toughness erm a lot etc etc. so GW cannot base models on fluff otherwise the only thing that could beart up a space marine would be another space marine or monstrous creature.

That is incorrect and unfluffy. gakky Black Library books that try and make Marines into immortal gods of war aside, a Space Marine can be killed by a single lasgun shot, even with his helmet on. A meltagun will vaporize a Space Marine just as easily as a Guardsman, too, and a chainsword can rip apart Marine innards as well (they only need to shred the two hearts to kill the Marine, and they're pretty close together IIRC).

Orks are tougher than Space Marines. One of the two species can survive decapitation as long as the head's put back on within a few days.

That species has green skin.

I wasn't refering to black library as I haven't read any. It was more of a view on the fact that space marines are supposed to take a lot more punishment in battle than a guardsmen because of their training/armour/ enhancements, which IIRC makes them a billion times better than a guardsmen for example.

They ARE able to take more punishment in battle than Guardsmen in tabletop. I fail to see how that argument supports increasing their stats in any way. Marines do not need any more spank.

Also, as I Said-- Orks are tougher than Space Marines, so if Marines get a bonus, Orks should get a LARGER one.

I said it before and I'l say it again, they may be resilient in storyline but they also don't die whenever they lose thier last wound, they're just incapacitated. it doesn't matter how long an Ork can live without a head, he's simply not going to be able to fight. heck he probably couldn't even get to his feet

but I understand that you're not saying they should be tougher, you're just using that as a counter response to another post

Ed_Bodger wrote:Sounds like an absolute load of BS to me

let me put it another way, Captains have always had more talent and potential <-- that last word being the key of the sentence