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If this question should go in another subforum, I apologize, but I think this is an appropriate question for here

Alright, it's been a long time since I've played. I'm starting to rebuild my IG army.

The last time I played 40k was back in 03 I think, maybe 04. So that was back in 3rd edition, before any of that 3.5 etc add ons, and I never played in 4th edition.

Back then I played a lot of Dark Angles, dabbled with Tau, and had a little bit of guard, but all was sold off before I joined the service, and I'm home now and looking at restarting.


So I'm starting a new guard army up from mainly scratch.

I understand that a lot of more competitive guard lists are armor heavy. Lots of valks and vendettas with vets with meltas, lots of russes, and maybe a few other things here and there, and I couldn't forget, lot's of Chimeras. I understand that works well, and for an 1850 point army, I can see what I'd like to have.


But I'm starting out small, and I'd like some advice from people who've played 5th edition a lot more than I have.


I plan on starting with the basic HQ squad, running it with all 3 advisors, and GLs and an Autocannon. I'll also have a second HQ squad with 4 meltas to run up front with the rest of the men.

I was thinking of using a blob squad of 30-40, with a commisar, running powerfists, save one sergeant (Since he'll be the one capped the first time I fail a check)

That PCS was going to have 4 flamers, and be right behind the blob squad, along with 2 specialist squads equipped the same. (There be lots of orks locally, about 1/3 of the players are orcs, 1/4 chaos, and 1/4 MEQs and Tau, and 1/4 smaller armies of everything else. It seems every MEQ player I know also has tau, and there's just an over abundance of orks. In local tournaments there are usually more orks than anything else, if not fully half of what I see there. But the breakdown above was more for casual gaming.

My other PCS squad I wanted to run with meltas, and then have 3-4 basic infantry squads. I hear that the AC/GL combo works really well with the current ruleset, and that heavy weapon teams are out.

Question here is, since I'm not planning on running any tanks till I expand past 1000 points, should I bother taking a few lascannon squads?

I was also thinking I'd need to take two squads at least of veterans, to load up on special weapons with a higher BS, and special doctrines. I'm thinking I'll go with a grenadier squad with 4 meltas, and a camo squad with 4 plasmas.

I do have an old squad of Storm Troopers, but with the huge price hike for relatively little, I'm thinking I might just leave them behind. But since I won't have any transports for while, their deep strike or infiltrate does look a bit nice.


Now there is one exception to my no-vehicles, and that's sentinels. I know they're not that great, they really aren't. But, since I'm going to have a few of the models, I plan on running them until I expand my army beyond 1000 points, and I think I might use them as scouts, with ACs, and outflank them. They may not do much, but as individual units, they could cause some havoc, and mostly just force the opponent to worry some.

Other than that, I'm trying to stay all infantry as long as I can.

I do know that people say they take a long time, but I'm starting out slow, and back when I DID play, I was an extremely quick player, so I don't think a huge amount of models will be much of a hindrance to me.



So that's what I'm thinking so far. Is this feasible at all, or am I just going to be plastered when I get to the field? I'm starting out small and casual, I just want to have fun and enjoy it, I don't mind losing, but winning every now and then would be nice.

Any questions, comments, or other 2 cents to throw my way? I've been lurking IG topics for a while, so I hope I'm starting off with a decent idea in mind. Any input is greatly appreciated.

You should take a look at Colonel Straken and Gunny Harker. Harker gives you an outflanking unit of Veterans and Straken makes any units within 12 inches ded killy, and is himself an absolute beast in close combat.

I'd also take a look at Rough Riders. Used properly you can reach out and touch somebody for very little cost.

And since it's an all infantry list, you have absolutely no reason not to throw in Sly Marbo. While we're on the subject of doctrines (segued from demolitions, which is my favourite doctrine), if you really want to take carapace armor, take it on the plasma vets rather than the melta vets, because at least it'll give you a better chance at saving Gets Hot! rolls.

I suppose that's another thing I should have mentioned...

I have a personal hatred of special characters.. So I don't generally use them... That and the dice gods hate me. I've am known as the worst roller in my area. And any area I've ever been in actually... So I generally don't like wasting points on a single thing that's likely to end up not performing anyhow.

I prefer more units, more dice, more rolls.

Now that being said, I may use a special character, but I'd have to model it myself to look like it could fit the role, but be someone else entire than the one hero person that's present in 50 different armies at once. I really liked the old codex how they had different levels of officers, like the heroic senior officer, I could personalize him to by the bad ass of my own army who wasn't the same as anyone elses. But that's just me I guess. I'm stingy that way

I didn't think about the get hot rule and the carapace armor. My thought pattern was the melta guys would expose themselves more, since they have to get closer, so would need more armor, and since the plasma guys would be objective grabbers, less likely to need more armor, and fire from a distance, so they could use the cover save bonus more.

I could just be crazy and use both on both squads, but that's way too many points, so I'd go with one on each.

Would it be worth it to take a squad with no doctrine, and just use them as a back up cheaper squad for one of the others? Or is that too many points into vets and not enough into platoons? I know that leaves me with very little in the heavy weapons (mostly ACs) and that worries me, since I'm not taking any vehicles for anti-armor work. I just hope my larger amount of infantry would help mitigate my anti armor some though.

If I had any extra points left over, I'd simply buy another platoon, and make them AC/GL basic squads to spread out the AC love.



As for rough riders. I've always been leery of them. I've seen them shot dead time and time again before they ever got close enough to do much, and if I only took one squad of them, I imagine that would be the most likely event, and they'd never make it to the enemy or even live long enough to counter charge my own backside. But that was two editions ago. Are they noticeably better in this edition?

So, an all-boots list comes with a few advantages:

- LOTS AND LOTS of scoring units. Seriously, you have possibly the best list in the entirety of the game for seize ground missions.

- LOTS of firepower. It is really easy to take literally dozens of special weapons.

- Durability. Yes, infantry suck, but a single meltagun can take down a 200 point executioner, while you, on the other hand, are bringing 50 infantry models for the same number of points.

Of course it has two major drawbacks: time (to build, assemble, paint, and, most importantly, deploy and move across the table), and blood. You have to be willing to accept losing 100 infantry models in a few turns and not let that phase you. It's easy to say that you've got nerves of steel, but it's another thing to prove it.

As for your specific post, you're on the right track with huge blobs+commissars and taking SWSs and melta PCSs, and the like. The things that I don't think you're quite clear on are things like arming your sarges with powerfists (which they can't take) or leaving a sarge with no wargear because you get to pick which sergeant that the commissar caps (it's random), and that GLAC squads are good (they're not), and that running all 3 advisors is advisable (the MoO is cruddy, and you don't really need an astropath in this case, and taking all 3 makes for a very expensive CCS).

Otherwise, just get started painting. It's not a real infantry company until it gets 100 infantry models, which will definitely take a lot of work.

Harker is not necessary, but straken makes blobs a *lot* more difficult to deal with. when placing objectives, keep in mind the lack of mobility that your army has, and be prepared for a lot of draws as you fail to take objectives that are far from your base, but can easily defend objectives on your side of the board.

Ailaros wrote:
As for your specific post, you're on the right track with huge blobs+commissars and taking SWSs and melta PCSs, and the like. The things that I don't think you're quite clear on are things like arming your sarges with powerfists (which they can't take) or leaving a sarge with no wargear because you get to pick which sergeant that the commissar caps (it's random), and that GLAC squads are good (they're not), and that running all 3 advisors is advisable (the MoO is cruddy, and you don't really need an astropath in this case, and taking all 3 makes for a very expensive CCS).

Otherwise, just get started painting. It's not a real infantry company until it gets 100 infantry models, which will definitely take a lot of work.

Ah, okay. I haven't looked too closely with the new codex, and I'll have to double check what they can take. So sergeants can't take powerfists at all? Ah I see, I was looking at the PCS and not the basic troop squad. My apologies. I'm still unfamiliar with this codex.

So would power weapons be a good choice then, since they can take those? And I thought that the commissar simply shot the next highest leadership model (Not a commissar), and if there were multiple of the same LD I got to choose one? I guess I'll have to look that up too.

Ah, so it is random. How do we determine that specifically, if I've got say, 4 sergeants alive? Just roll a die for each and whoever got the lowest dies? Or is there a specific way of making it 'random'?


I'm not worried about the time to take to build and paint etc, that's actually one of my favorite parts As for the nerves of steel, I'll point to my post about bad rolls. I'm used to watching my stuff die. A lot I lost 18 space marines in CC once to an inquisitor and his 3 henchmen (effectively guardsmen) and I was the one who charged. He didn't lose a single model. Not one. I lost 15 marines in return as the CC went on. Good thing about always rolling low, you never fail LD

So you don't thing AC/GL squads are a decent build? I love autocannons, always have. Haven't played them much in this edition, but they haven't changed really, though I know other things have. What would you suggest giving the basic platoons that aren't blobbed up?

As for the 3 advisors, I understand they're expensive. But for 60 points to help with reserves quite a bit both ways, I think it's a decent trade off. Though you're right, I might leave the astropath at home. What do you think of him with the sentinels though? Or should I just take an extra sentinel for his price nearly? And as for the MoO, I mostly want to have him since he's relatively cheap by comparison to a basilisk (which I'm not taking) and even though his accuracy is really really poor, for 30 points, if he hits anything once, I think he'll probably make his points back. That's roughly only 2 marines or whatever, or a handful of orks. I imagine that once in a match he might kill something.


And as for Straken, is he worth taking up 10% of my points to make the blob squad more survivable? I guess he'll make everything near by more survivable, but is he worth an extra 19 guardsmen?

i have a friend who has played the infantry guard list with VERY good results (although long play time )
theres just a few things you gotta remember with an all infantry army...

-specialize your squads: mixing assault, rapid fire, and heavy weapons isnt such a good idea; instead you should have either static units, moving units, or rapid fire units (triple plasma vet squad comes to mind)

-stubborn is your friend: a commissar with a fist leading 2 or 3 combined infantry squads or a big conscript squad can hold up almost any unit for an entire game more or less

-priests are your assault units: joined with a commissar in a combined unit of infantry squads, they can give you strong assault units if you are the one charging... s3 isnt that impressive, until you are putting out 40 to 60 (or more) attacks, rerolling hits, and then also have an eviscerator and a power fist following up

-dont worry about losing massive amounts of models: there are plenty more to back them up

over all it can be a very strong even competitive list that makes a lot of stuff that other people might bring to the table completely useless

Remember that infantry squad commissars cannot take power fists.

I my experience you need to include the points to give your power weapon sergeants meltabombs.
Dreadnoughts are the biggest threat to your blobs as you cannot hurt them if you don't bring melta bombs.

I have tried running blobs both 30 and 40 big. IMO the 30 one doesn't really have the manpower to survive nor the weight of numbers to grind down the enemy.

I have tried to run just two blobs but I have found that my opponent can too easily focus fire them. Also running three blobs will dominate more of the table with its sheer presence making it more difficult for your opponent to avoid the blobs.

I tried running my blobs with Grenade Launchers. While it is somewhat satisfying to have a range 24 Assault weapon to fire every turn, it doesn't cut the mustard.
Giving your blobs meltaguns will, while being expensive, give your opponent something to worry about.

In my opinion Straken is a must. He is such a force multiplier that he shouldn't be ignored.
In general I find it hard to get the charge with a blob and Strakens Counterassault really helps in that regard.

Modelling wise I recommend using half normal guardsmen and half clip-together ones (assuming you use Cadians of course). Mixing them half-n-half looks good and saves you a lot of time. I use Pig Iron heads to differentiate my assault platoons from my normal platoons.

In an all infantry list you might also consider 2 Squads of 5 Stormtroopers with 2 meltaguns. Since you won't field any transports it's a good way to get your meltas close, plus they may reroll the scatter dice for more accuracy. Fielding meltas in standard infantry squads is a waste since any vehicle will outmaneuver them and a rhino for example won't care being destroyed after delivering their load.
For the AC/GL squads: ACs shine at popping transports and still provide a little antihorde. The GL is more of an option for sinking those last 15 points you can't use otherwise.

So many posters good posts and noone pointed out that summary execution says to randomly determine who dies, as opposed to you choosing, so theres really no point in keeping one of your sarges unequipped, especoally if the dice hate you as much as you say.
Oh and cudos on never taking specials In the grim future of 40k the same dudes fight in all the battles – laaame

Ailaros wrote:and that GLAC squads are good (they're not)

Wrong. They're the most effective PIS combination for the points cost. Why you keep lauding that they aren't when its been argued to death that they are is beyond me. I won't repeat the many, many, MANY positives that such a squad brings to the table as thats not the point of this thread but suffice to say that I WILL keep calling you on this for as long as you keep giving poor advice to people.

Ailaros wrote:and that running all 3 advisors is advisable (the MoO is cruddy, and you don't really need an astropath in this case, and taking all 3 makes for a very expensive CCS).

This I do agree with. The MoO is only really of use in large scale battles where his absurdly poor accuracy will still enable him to hit something. Unless you're planning on taking Al'Rahem as one of your PCOs then I'd also avoid the Astropath, you simply won't use the abilities he brings to the table. The OotF is always a nice addition to a CCS, as more than anything else they can seriously mess up your opponent's reserves. Which is fun.

Much of the advice given here is good. With regards how to upgrade your units theres a rule that I stick to almost religiously; if it isn't a gun, don't take it. Giving your PCS power fists and your Sergeants power weapons will eat into your points allowance incredibly quickly; and thats saying nothing about the fact that a power fist costs as much as a plasma gun! A S3/6 attack of two in combat doesn't scare anybody. Yes, you may cause the odd wound here or there, but combat is the very, very last resort for any Guard player, and you most definetely do NOT want to start wasting points on the aspect of the game that your army suffers the most.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:and that GLAC squads are good (they're not)

Wrong. They're the most effective PIS combination for the points cost. Why you keep lauding that they aren't when its been argued to death that they are is beyond me. I won't repeat the many, many, MANY positives that such a squad brings to the table as thats not the point of this thread but suffice to say that I WILL keep calling you on this for as long as you keep giving poor advice to people.

Seconded, sometimes Ailaros can give good advice, but most of the time he seems like he's just trollin on the way everyone i've ever known play guard, by saying its wrong.

The majority of the thought I have seen surrounding a non-mech IG force is to throw as much firepower into the army as possible. Abstain from shiny close combat stuff since, as has allready been mentioned, you generally want to avoid CC for as long as possible. If it's dead/stunned/pinned it can't get to you.

For my non-mech guard army, I plan on running Creed and Kell with a vox network. Here is why, I absolutley cannot afford to have my orders fail me with this list. Creed gives you 2 extra orders per turn + he can grant outflank to one squad. I plan on making a suicide melta special weapons team to take advantage of this. Kell allows you to use Creeds leadership 10 for your orders, and the voxes will allow a reroll for the possibility of you rolling a 12(which shuts down your whole orders phase) or an 11 which would be a failure.

I know you said you don't like specials but I really don't see you being competive without a few. Especially for guard.

GG

gearheadwhat wrote:So you don't thing AC/GL squads are a decent build? I love autocannons, always have. Haven't played them much in this edition, but they haven't changed really, though I know other things have. What would you suggest giving the basic platoons that aren't blobbed up?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:They're the most effective PIS combination for the points cost.

HoverBoy wrote: Ailaros can give good advice, but most of the time he seems like he's just trollin on the way everyone i've ever known play guard, by saying its wrong.

Don't take GLACs just because they're popular. Remember, so was the macarena.

When you do the math, it becomes painfully clear that autocannons are NOT a points-effective way of handling transports. I'm not sure if it's a visceral fear of transports, or the inability to do math, or the raw power of groupthink that keeps people taking them. As you're playing an all-infantry army, you have the ability to handle transports in a points-effective fashion.

As for the special weapons, they're all okay, depending on the role, and the situation. The only one I wouldn't take is the meltagun because when you shoot it, it's very likely that you're completely wasting all the rest of the firepower of the squad. This may sound nuanced, but if you're spending 400 points for lasguns, you better be sure that they're actually shooting at stuff. As such, when I take heavy weapons in PISs (which is almost never), I take mortars or heavy bolters.

In your case, with charging blobs, I'd take no heavy weapon and either flamers or GLs (or a mix). Just remember that a GL is an anti-infantry weapon. Don't go pretending like it's a meltagun.

gearheadwhat wrote:So would power weapons be a good choice then, since they can take those? And I thought that the commissar simply shot the next highest leadership model (Not a commissar), and if there were multiple of the same LD I got to choose one? I guess I'll have to look that up too.

So, I'm of the opinion that you should go big or go home when it comes to arming the blob for close combat. This means adding a power weapon on every sergeant, a power weapon on every commissar, and a priest with an eviscerator. Going from a regular 2PIS platoon into a 20-man blob of death costs 120 points, but when you run the numbers you can see what kind of terrific damage it can do (to the tune of wiping a whole 10-man tac squad in a single charge). Otherwise just putting a power weapon here or there, or not taking a priest is making it so that it's an expensive way of mowing down light infantry.

gearheadwhat wrote:And as for the MoO, I mostly want to have him since he's relatively cheap by comparison to a basilisk (which I'm not taking) and even though his accuracy is really really poor, for 30 points, if he hits anything once, I think he'll probably make his points back.

IF IT HITS. Remember that the MoO misses, even when it rolls a "hit". You've got to be rather lucky for that up to 18" scattering monster to nail something worthwhile. Possible, sure, against hordes, but it's not necessarily something you want to bring every game, especially since it requires your CCS to remain immobile in order to shoot it (and you're going to want it to be chasing after your blobs with a flag).

gearheadwhat wrote:And as for Straken, is he worth taking up 10% of my points to make the blob squad more survivable? I guess he'll make everything near by more survivable, but is he worth an extra 19 guardsmen?

Firstly, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't just Straken fearless? He doesn't transfer that to other units, right? Secondly, commissars already mostly handle fearless. Combine a blob with "get back in the fight", and I don't see why it's particularly necessary.

As such, I just see him as a source of furious charge, which is nice, but it IS kind of expensive. Plus, a command squad with straken, 3 meltaguns, a standard, an FO, a MoO and an Astropath is 280 points. If I was facing off across from this, guess where my first basilisk shot would target...

---

Oh, and as for sentinels, yeah, it's generally better to take another of something than it is to upgrade them. In the case of the astropath it starts weighing in its favor after like 3-5 sentinels or so, so it's not the worst idea to take it. That said, I'd still rather have the extra firepower, unless adding another sentinel means needing to buy another kit, in which case definitely take the astropath.

Melta guns in blob squads is the only way to reliably prevent opponents from tank-shocking you off objectives. If you're playing all-infantry and don't have vehicles of your own to prevent your opponent's vehicle movement, then I think you need melta guns in blob squads.

Only? Meltabombs are just as effective (and cheaper, and don't interfere with your firepower), and priests are MORE effective when it comes to death or glory.

Stormies are perfect if you want some form of rapid-attack. W/ meltas they can mess up enemy tank lines.
I'd suggest voxes. Never under-estimate that extra ld roll, especially if you roll as badly as you say. Blob squads are perfect w/ FRFSRF but if you fail that roll you've wasted an order. Lots of HWS work well with orders, especially FomT and BiD. Don't take vets. Without a transport their useless. They just act as expensive cannon fodder. Take chimeras if you want them, but otherwise dont bother. Finally, if you dont wanna take special characters, I would recommend ogryns for counter assault.

Ailaros wrote:Don't take GLACs just because they're popular. Remember, so was the macarena.

When you do the math, it becomes painfully clear that autocannons are NOT a points-effective way of handling transports. I'm not sure if it's a visceral fear of transports, or the inability to do math, or the raw power of groupthink that keeps people taking them. As you're playing an all-infantry army, you have the ability to handle transports in a points-effective fashion.

I am not having this arguement AGAIN. We had a whole thread dedicated to an autocannon debate where maths, player experience and general consensus all ruled in favour of the gun. If you wish to re-ignite that debate, fine, but do so on a dedicated thread. I will more than happily argue against you there.

L. Wrex

Ailaros wrote:Only? Meltabombs are just as effective (and cheaper, and don't interfere with your firepower), and priests are MORE effective when it comes to death or glory.

AP1 makes all the difference.

I think you've got the basics down for a good core, but as others have said watch the upgrades. I don't think you should have 3 advisors + 2 doctrines + PF/PW's at <1000pts. Too much fat. Pick one or two that you really want and save the rest for when your list gets bigger.

Other than that, you're going for the same kind of organization that I like, an assault platoon, a support platoon, and an 'elite platoon'. Don't ignore those Karskins - as others have pointed out it would be a good way to get some mobile melta into your list.

I'd say bring some lascannons along, to help the melta with heavy armour. You've got the right idea for using your sents too, could even just use multilaser for that job. You don't 'need' special characters imo.

Ailaros wrote:The only one I wouldn't take is the meltagun

Doesn't that link of yours talk about putting melta guns in your squads though???

One thing I've thought about, is that melta guns, are only really good within 6 inches. Other than that, they're no better than an autocannon really (Yes I understand they're 1 point higher in strength and AP is important) But I only get one shot, when I could have 2. And that 2 is at a threat range of 48 inches. Which is better than the 18/12* (*extra d6 pen) range of a melta. I have to get CLOSE to use melta guns. Really damned close. And I'm not taking transports, so that's awfully hard.


Aside from that though, what would be good for specials in the blob squad? I do think that meltas here, would be a good choice, since they are really effective. But I don't think I'd put meltas in my non blobbed squads for the above reason. One thing I was thinking about was maybe flamers, since I could actually use them when i charged. Assuming I get charged, it's a bit of a waste, but then again are meltas for the most part... And they're cheaper.

For a blob squad used as a charge/counter charge to keep the baddies away from my other guys, I see a lot of people don't think the power weapons are worth it. It would save me 50 points, for a 40 man squad with a commissar, since that's 5 power weapons, which would let me field another 10 men, but if I DO get in CC with something, wouldn't the 15 power weapon attacks actually help? That's 2-4 kills a turn, roughly speaking, and that's probably going to be worth about what I pay for it. Especially if it's marines, that would about triple my kill count with those guys, and an extra 10 men might not be able to do the same, though it would add more wounds.


As for my PIS I do think I'll go the GL/AC road. I like autocannons. Even if some think it's irrational (Hell, even I agree I have an irrational love for them) I do think that I may give maybe 1 in 3 PIS squads a lascannon. But what about for the lascannon PIS? What sort of special, if any, should they have? GLs as well or should I go the melta or plasma road? That becomes more expensive though, so I am hesitant.


As for vets, I've got a few saying not to take them without transport. So what should I take in their stead? Would an extra platoon really help? I really like the idea of a tooled out vet squad or two, if nothing else, for loads of specials, shotguns, and the ability to act as a second counter charge that could really make a bit of a difference. They are expensive, running about the cost of 2 regular gl/ac squads though each, but they've got more specials and better BS at a cost of wounds.

As for the advisors, I do think I'll leave the astropath at home. I think the master of the fleet is always probably useful. As for the MoO, I think he sounds fun. I do understand he's unlikely to hit. But given several shots, I imagine he'll kill SOMETHING, and he's only 30 points, and until I have models to actually replace him, he's a decent point sink to fill out my army as I start off. That's also part of why I like the veterans, I can get some fun guys, who eat up more points, and till I have enough minis to replace them, should hopefully be decent until then, that it seems some people like them and others don't. So I'm still a bit undecided on them.

As for storm troopers, has any one else used them in 5 man drop squads with any success? I imagine that whatever they do kill would need to be spendy to warrant their cost, since they most likely will get splattered the turn after they land. And that's a lot of points, over 200 for two groups of 5...


As for voxes, I'm probably not going to waste the points on them. I like the orders, I'm going to use the orders, but I'm not going to spend extra points to rely on them. They help sure, but they don't seem like they're everything.


Oh, that is one question though, about commissars. They have LD 9, so if one is in the blob squad, does it use his LD of 9? I don't see any rules that he doesn't, and the inspiring presence rules for them aren't there anymore for that, so I'm imagining they do. But it's when their LD9 fails he executes someone else for a reroll. Is this correct?

I'm under the impression that you use the sgt's ld till he is executed.

I hear you about using vets to fill out your points - i've had to do the same.

I think a squad-based LC is best paired with a plasmagun, to keep up the AP2. But like you say, the squad gets expensive...

With all the Orks in your meta, the MoO won't be missing all the time...

If you have a commissar, you use his LD9. He just executes guys to get the rest of the schmucks to follow his orders.

gearheadwhat wrote:Doesn't that link of yours talk about putting melta guns in your squads though???

Okay, so let me rephrase that.

Yes, it's usually going to take a few shots to down a vehicle, but, unlike infantry, you're dealing with a small case set. As such, you're much more dependent on the vagaries of individual die rolls.

As well, even if the anti-tank shot doesn't KILL the vehicle, nearly ANY rolling on the damage table will either stop the vehicle's firepower 100% for the next turn, or it will chop it down drastically from there on out. A single weapon can stun a tank, whereas you need to kill every last infantry model to finally get its guns to stop shooting.

gearheadwhat wrote:One thing I've thought about, is that melta guns, are only really good within 6 inches... I have to get CLOSE to use melta guns. Really damned close. And I'm not taking transports, so that's awfully hard.

Yeah, but we're in 5th ed now. Even if you don't outflank or take transports (al'rahem would not be amiss, though), you can still sprint with your troops. Plus, your troops now get cover out in the open (from other troops) allowing them to survive to their targets on foot, and this is also assuming that the opponents won't also be trying to get closer to you simultaneously (as is often the case with transports).

The big problem with special weapons was range, which is now roughly half the problem it once was.

gearheadwhat wrote:I see a lot of people don't think the power weapons are worth it

Individually, power weapons are ineffective, generally speaking. Like autocannons, adding more of them increases their effectiveness, but not their points-effectiveness. That said, there are other upgrades you can take that do impact their real effectiveness. A priest's rerolls, for example, increase their effectiveness by 50%, and Straken's furious charge increases it by 33%. A single power weapon in the hand of a sergeant will kill about a space marine a game (still worth its points, but not by a lot), while a single power weapon with a priest in the group will kill more like two. In a stubborn blob, that number keeps going up.

As such, power weapons really need to be supported. Taking one here and there stinks, but if you put several in a blob with a commissar and a priest, you're talking about a weapon which can now individually kill 4x its cost in marines without breaking too big of a sweat.

gearheadwhat wrote: I do think that I may give maybe 1 in 3 PIS squads a lascannon.

Oh, don't do that. If you're going to be moving (which you will), they're going to be useless. Even if you're not, PISs are the WORST way to field lascannons. I mean, really, are you going to have your 30-man 400 point commissar and special weapons blob just sit around with its thumbs up its butts just so that it can squeeze off a couple of lascannon rounds?

gearheadwhat wrote:
As for vets, I've got a few saying not to take them without transport. So what should I take in their stead?

If you want to keep the firepower, SWSs. That or take more troops and give special weapons to the PCS

gearheadwhat wrote:
As for voxes, I'm probably not going to waste the points on them. I like the orders, I'm going to use the orders, but I'm not going to spend extra points to rely on them. They help sure, but they don't seem like they're everything.

Right. Voxes are only good when you need to guarantee that you can throw little packets of extra goodness at your troops. This is more useful when you only have a few troops, and you really need for them to carry more weight. This will not be a problem with you. That said, a single vox set affects the entire blob...

Ailaros wrote:
Oh, don't do that. If you're going to be moving (which you will), they're going to be useless. Even if you're not, PISs are the WORST way to field lascannons. I mean, really, are you going to have your 30-man 400 point commissar and special weapons blob just sit around with its thumbs up its butts just so that it can squeeze off a couple of lascannon rounds?

I'm fairly sure I understand most of what you've said above, as for here, let me clarify:

I plan on running my blob squads. Where I was going to put in my heavy weapon was all the other basic 10 man squads I'm not blobbing.

So I'll probably have my super blob, tool it accordingly. In my next platoon, I'll not be blobbing, so I'll have 10 man squads, 2 of the squad say, have ACs, and one having a lascannon, with the PCS running flamers or some other specials. Rinse and repeat. Maybe make some changes with the PCS specials. Maybe depending on points a SWS.

I've heard nothing but bad things about HW teams, even though they're far cheaper now, the changes hurt more than helped. So I'm attempting to avoid them entirely. Let's me take more infantry squads, so my men are more all over the place, and finally, I'll have more individual heavy weapons about. That gives me more angles to fire from, and when a good opportunity shows itself to shoot from the side here or there, I'll sacrifice it's movement to take the shot of opportunity. I guess I'm just attempting to maintain some sort of flexibility and mobility without having to resort to highly specialized HW teams, that are too fragile etc.


So Ailaros, do you think I should avoid vets and just take higher amounts of infantry, and then use a PCS for the specials? That gives me some more wounds, by about double, but less dependable. I don't know. Does anyone else have any views on vet squads without transports? Should I really just wait till I expand later to take vets and just spam out the basic grunts?

Ailaros wrote:

gearheadwhat wrote:And as for Straken, is he worth taking up 10% of my points to make the blob squad more survivable? I guess he'll make everything near by more survivable, but is he worth an extra 19 guardsmen?

Firstly, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't just Straken fearless? He doesn't transfer that to other units, right? Secondly, commissars already mostly handle fearless. Combine a blob with "get back in the fight", and I don't see why it's particularly necessary.

As such, I just see him as a source of furious charge, which is nice, but it IS kind of expensive. Plus, a command squad with straken, 3 meltaguns, a standard, an FO, a MoO and an Astropath is 280 points. If I was facing off across from this, guess where my first basilisk shot would target...

Straken gives his unit fearless, and every unit within 12 inches gets counter-attack and furious charge. Sure, if you're facing heavy indirect fire with no vehicles and the squad is out of cover, you're not going to be a happy camper. But so what? Heavy indirect fire is going to absolutely destroy this army anyway.

DROP THE SOAP wrote:
Straken gives his unit fearless, and every unit within 12 inches gets counter-attack and furious charge. Sure, if you're facing heavy indirect fire with no vehicles and the squad is out of cover, you're not going to be a happy camper. But so what? Heavy indirect fire is going to absolutely destroy this army anyway.

wins.
you should have straken in a squad that can help him soak up fire, and take out any whirlwinds//basilisks asap with that army anyway...
that doesnt mean you wanna beef up his unit and throw em into the fight, but they will be a major target that you want to protect

gearheadwhat wrote:Where I was going to put in my heavy weapon was all the other basic 10 man squads I'm not blobbing.

Ah. It's still a bad place to take them, though. 70 points for a single lascannon shot a turn?

gearheadwhat wrote:I've heard nothing but bad things about HW teams, even though they're far cheaper now, the changes hurt more than helped.

To be fair, it has little to do with the HWSs themselves. They got a touch more brittle, but they got a nice points cut. The real problem isn't the new codex, it's the 5th ed. rulebook. Troops now get 4+ cover out in the open and they hit your lines nearly twice as fast. That and cheap, cheap transports and lots and lots of stuff deepstriking and outflanking makes it so that your HWSs are now less likely to get shots in before something kills them. That and vehicles got much tougher against long ranged guns. No longer do we live in a time of units slowly marching out in the open, and that was pretty much the only thing that infantry heavy weapons were good at in the first place.

The only really redeeming factor is that they're still scoring, which makes doing things like hiding mortars out of LOS on an objective still a worthwhile expenditure of points.

gearheadwhat wrote: Let's me take more infantry squads, so my men are more all over the place, and finally, I'll have more individual heavy weapons about. That gives me more angles to fire from, and when a good opportunity shows itself to shoot from the side here or there, I'll sacrifice it's movement to take the shot of opportunity. I guess I'm just attempting to maintain some sort of flexibility and mobility without having to resort to highly specialized HW teams, that are too fragile etc.

Sure, but be warned: flexibility and mobility are more often than not antonyms. Having heavy weapons gives you flexibility in shooting, but it forces you to be very non-flexible with regards to movement. Likewise, being flexible with movement means that you are often not shooting heavy weapons, which means that they're dead weight on your list. Balance these two things carefully.

Personally, I stray towards favoring movement over heavy weapons fire, as heavy weapons are so generally cruddy, and all-infantry armies suffer from mobility problems, so I need all the help in that department I can get.

gearheadwhat wrote:So Ailaros, do you think I should avoid vets and just take higher amounts of infantry, and then use a PCS for the specials?

I don't know. Honestly, I use extra platoons and SWSs than veterans (I don't actually use any veterans in my lists), but that's because I like points efficiency with my special weapons which lets me field bigger blobs. It seems to me to be more of a matter of preference, though, honestly. Just because vets+chimera is an obvious choice doesn't make vets without chimera a bad one straight away.

Ailaros wrote:
To be fair, it has little to do with the HWSs themselves. They got a touch more brittle, but they got a nice points cut. The real problem isn't the new codex, it's the 5th ed. rulebook.

Okay, I see what you're saying about how it's the edition more than the unit. Though they are more fragile and cheaper, I'm not sure if it's a decent trade off.

Ailaros wrote:
Sure, but be warned: flexibility and mobility are more often than not antonyms. Having heavy weapons gives you flexibility in shooting, but it forces you to be very non-flexible with regards to movement. Likewise, being flexible with movement means that you are often not shooting heavy weapons, which means that they're dead weight on your list. Balance these two things carefully.

I don't plan on taking too many blobs. Just the one mostly. Throw it in the center of a two pronged approach, able to move either way, or even back if necessary. Mostly as a giant target, make the enemy sweat, and hopefully have it kill enough in the process of moving out to warrant taking it.

I figured other than that, if I take enough PIS that they're effectively everywhere, I can keep moving forward with all of them, and having one or two here and there stop and shoot when a nice target presents, shouldn't slow me down too much, while almost always giving me a side shot.

Ailaros wrote:
I don't know. Honestly, I use extra platoons and SWSs than veterans (I don't actually use any veterans in my lists), but that's because I like points efficiency with my special weapons which lets me field bigger blobs. It seems to me to be more of a matter of preference, though, honestly. Just because vets+chimera is an obvious choice doesn't make vets without chimera a bad one straight away.

The thing I don't like about SWS and PCS vs the vets, is they are costly, but no benefit. Vets cost more, but get a BS that the others don't. SWS is also just 6 men, and easier to kill, and can't do anything other than their schtik. The vets can shoot and kill, and assault and kill. They're still guard so not terribly good at either, but better than other grunts. They also have more LD than the SWS, and more wounds. An extra PCS though does throw in just as many specials, and more orders, but no absorbent wounds, and need to be screened by the infantry in front of them. Overall though, the more basic grunts do have extra wounds in surplus over the vets alone.

I'll have to make up a list and put it up and compare the different builds I suppose. And I get the feel that compromising isn't always a good idea anymore. It's good to go extreme with something. Part of why I'm staying all infantry (other than theme) is that it's a lot of bodies. So maybe I shouldn't use vets afterall. Any suggestions for a 1000 point army? (I do want to include the 2 regimental advisors in one CCS, and I do want to take 2 CCSs, but other than that, I'm open to most any all infantry ideas)