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Ailaros wrote:

gearheadwhat wrote:So you don't thing AC/GL squads are a decent build? I love autocannons, always have. Haven't played them much in this edition, but they haven't changed really, though I know other things have. What would you suggest giving the basic platoons that aren't blobbed up?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:They're the most effective PIS combination for the points cost.

HoverBoy wrote: Ailaros can give good advice, but most of the time he seems like he's just trollin on the way everyone i've ever known play guard, by saying its wrong.

Don't take GLACs just because they're popular. Remember, so was the macarena.

When you do the math, it becomes painfully clear that autocannons are NOT a points-effective way of handling transports. I'm not sure if it's a visceral fear of transports, or the inability to do math, or the raw power of groupthink that keeps people taking them. As you're playing an all-infantry army, you have the ability to handle transports in a points-effective fashion.

As for the special weapons, they're all okay, depending on the role, and the situation. The only one I wouldn't take is the meltagun because when you shoot it, it's very likely that you're completely wasting all the rest of the firepower of the squad. This may sound nuanced, but if you're spending 400 points for lasguns, you better be sure that they're actually shooting at stuff. As such, when I take heavy weapons in PISs (which is almost never), I take mortars or heavy bolters.

In your case, with charging blobs, I'd take no heavy weapon and either flamers or GLs (or a mix). Just remember that a GL is an anti-infantry weapon. Don't go pretending like it's a meltagun.

gearheadwhat wrote:So would power weapons be a good choice then, since they can take those? And I thought that the commissar simply shot the next highest leadership model (Not a commissar), and if there were multiple of the same LD I got to choose one? I guess I'll have to look that up too.

So, I'm of the opinion that you should go big or go home when it comes to arming the blob for close combat. This means adding a power weapon on every sergeant, a power weapon on every commissar, and a priest with an eviscerator. Going from a regular 2PIS platoon into a 20-man blob of death costs 120 points, but when you run the numbers you can see what kind of terrific damage it can do (to the tune of wiping a whole 10-man tac squad in a single charge). Otherwise just putting a power weapon here or there, or not taking a priest is making it so that it's an expensive way of mowing down light infantry.

gearheadwhat wrote:And as for the MoO, I mostly want to have him since he's relatively cheap by comparison to a basilisk (which I'm not taking) and even though his accuracy is really really poor, for 30 points, if he hits anything once, I think he'll probably make his points back.

IF IT HITS. Remember that the MoO misses, even when it rolls a "hit". You've got to be rather lucky for that up to 18" scattering monster to nail something worthwhile. Possible, sure, against hordes, but it's not necessarily something you want to bring every game, especially since it requires your CCS to remain immobile in order to shoot it (and you're going to want it to be chasing after your blobs with a flag).

gearheadwhat wrote:And as for Straken, is he worth taking up 10% of my points to make the blob squad more survivable? I guess he'll make everything near by more survivable, but is he worth an extra 19 guardsmen?

Firstly, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't just Straken fearless? He doesn't transfer that to other units, right? Secondly, commissars already mostly handle fearless. Combine a blob with "get back in the fight", and I don't see why it's particularly necessary.

As such, I just see him as a source of furious charge, which is nice, but it IS kind of expensive. Plus, a command squad with straken, 3 meltaguns, a standard, an FO, a MoO and an Astropath is 280 points. If I was facing off across from this, guess where my first basilisk shot would target...

---

Oh, and as for sentinels, yeah, it's generally better to take another of something than it is to upgrade them. In the case of the astropath it starts weighing in its favor after like 3-5 sentinels or so, so it's not the worst idea to take it. That said, I'd still rather have the extra firepower, unless adding another sentinel means needing to buy another kit, in which case definitely take the astropath.

Mother of god, Alairos, can you just stop this nonsense? It hurts my brain to read such things. I don't even know how that works, my brain can't handle nonsense, so it aches. Ugh.

Autocannons are the most points efficient weapon for infantry squad, and the most reliable with two shots. Lascannons are too expensive, and have one shot. I am undecided about the ML, I like it, but I am hesitant.

Wake up, guys.

You cannot decide whether an Autocannon is good and efficient or not, in a vacuum.

It very much depends on the setup of the rest of the army and the role you intend for the Autocannon-armed squad to play.
The same applies to the HWSs and powerweapon-armed sergeants.

Whether this thread is going to spiral into a flame-war is very much up to you.
Please say smart things like; "X are good in my PIS because I intend them to do Y while being supported by Z", instead of just making blanket statements.

PS. All use of "you" is a generic "you" and not addressed at anybody in particular.

Ailaros wrote:

HoverBoy wrote: Ailaros can give good advice, but most of the time he seems like he's just trollin on the way everyone i've ever known play guard, by saying its wrong.

Don't take GLACs just because they're popular. Remember, so was the macarena.

Heh nice one

Seriously though, it's not just popular it also wins tourneys, how many have you won with your "out of the box" fighting style?

Steelmage99 wrote:You cannot decide whether an Autocannon is good and efficient or not, in a vacuum.

It very much depends on the setup of the rest of the army and the role you intend for the Autocannon-armed squad to play.
The same applies to the HWSs and powerweapon-armed sergeants.

I agree, which is why I'm so opposed to Ailaros constantly showing up in Guard tactic threads and completely dismissing the gun out of hand; as well as championing his own opinions as superior simply because it goes against the grain of 'group think' despite the fact that maths consistently disproves his arguements.

Anyway, back OT.

Heavy weapon squads in a PIS are a good thing to have. First and foremost - they are cheap. This allows you to field a vast quantity whilst reducing the impact on the points-bank. Secondly - PIS HWS have the advantage of ablative lasgun wounds to wrap around the vulnerable big gun. You may consider dedicated HWS, but a S6 gun is exceptionally easy to find, not to mention that a loss of a single base forces a Ld check on the not-so-great Ld of 7. Finally, putting your heavy weapons into PIS forces your opponent to split his fire, increasing the liklihood of your survival - whilst with a dedicated HWS all he has to do is focus fre that one unit in order to nullify your long-range threats.

Obviously, on the large blob squad I would recommend eschewing heavy weapons for flamers or other special weapons. The GL might be a fun option to spit out 4 x S6 shots or 4 x S3 blasts at 24" a turn. You may also consider putting meltas or plasmas in that large blob, but bear in mind the points increase as well as the fact that if you shoot that vehicle you now cannot assault that infantry unit and vice versa. Melta bombs and/or a Priest may go some way to alleviating the threat of tank shocks and Dreadnoughts.

L. Wrex

Blobs are an awesome place to field heavy weapons, especially with straken in the army, because you can't shake a blob, you have to get through 24+ bodies to get to the heavy weapons, and it takes a really, crazy good CC unit to actually be able to charge a blob and have a decent chance of coming out alive at the end of the several turns it will take to kill all those dudes, assuming they don't kill you first.

Also, the blob makes your orders more efficient by both increasing the chance of the orders passing and increasing the number of models making use of a single order.

Whilst all true, I believe what the OP wants to do is have the blob as an 'assault' unit, whilst keeping individual PISs as a firebase/objective holder.

I agree that blobs do make voxs/Commisars/orders more efficient, but dependant upon the mission type/opponent it can be more advantageous not to blob.

L. Wrex

Would it be worth it to say, have 2 of the squads in the blob with krak grenades, instead of meltas? Lots of dice, and able to possibly hurt larger things, though how does that fare against a dred? Or are kraks incapable entirely of killing those, and meltas being required in this case?

And in the case of a blob, with a commisar, would it be worth putting one vox in there, just to ensure that the large squad stays in the fight, or does whatever other order I give it. I lose net 2 guardsmen in the 50 man blob points wise for the two voxes. But I don't think I'd put voxes anywhere else. And I'll definitely put specials in the blob. Not sure if flamers, meltas, or plasma is better for them though, I really just don't know. And I don't think I'll have heavies in there either, since that's what all the other guys are for.

Kraks vs. Meltabombs.

It depends on how many Ironclads/Furiosos you run into. The str. 6 Krak obviously doesn't do much against AV 13.

Voxes.

With a commisar (LD 9) I rarely bother with voxes. I guess I'll might change my mind if I feel that I fail often. It hasn't been my experience so for.

Heavy Weapons.

I can find a justification for heavy weapons in assault blobs, but it is a rather "gamey" one.
Since I prefer using 40 man blobs I sometimes have some difficulties getting all my guys into combat. Investing in four mortars (with their big bases) helps quite a bit. Keep them in the front part of the unit and get them into btb.
You'll find that quite a few more guys can get within 2" of a big mortar base as opposed to within a normal infantry base.

gearheadwhat wrote:Would it be worth it to say, have 2 of the squads in the blob with krak grenades, instead of meltas? Lots of dice,

Lots of dice, sure, but they're only barely to hurt AV12 and they're not able to hurt anything higher. As such, the most obvious use of krak grenades is against transports. Personally, I'd rather take fewer meltabombs than more krak grenades.

gearheadwhat wrote:And in the case of a blob, with a commisar, would it be worth putting one vox in there, just to ensure that the large squad stays in the fight, or does whatever other order I give it. I lose net 2 guardsmen in the 50 man blob points wise for the two voxes. But I don't think I'd put voxes anywhere else. And I'll definitely put specials in the blob. Not sure if flamers, meltas, or plasma is better for them though, I really just don't know. And I don't think I'll have heavies in there either, since that's what all the other guys are for.

Voxes could go either way, really. I personally don't take them in my commissar blobs, but that's because my commissar blobs won't be making use of basically any order other than the super run one.

As for specials, don't take meltas. It means you're going to be taking hundreds of points of guardsman and wasting all but a couple of guy's shots. Given that it's only a few melta shots worth of gain for hundreds of lasgun shots lost, it's not worth it. As for flamers, GLs or Plasma, bring plasma if it's going to be a shooty blob, and bring GLs or flamers if it's going to be a choppy blob. If you're doing choppy, bring lots of power weapons and a priest, if you're not, then plasma.

Personally, I wouldn't give plasma to a mob, as the point of a commissar is that he makes your blobs better in close combat, and as such supports a choppy squad much better. a plasma commissar blob makes the squad more likely to live through several rounds of CC in order to be able to shoot its plasma guns again. a power weapon commissar makes the squad more likely to do more damage for every turn it's in close combat.

It really depends on how you want to use them, I suppose.

Ailaros wrote:

As for specials, don't take meltas. It means you're going to be taking hundreds of points of guardsman and wasting all but a couple of guy's shots.

That does not have to be true.

You can think of the meltas as being in support of the blob, not the purpose of the blob.
When it comes to assault blobs I consider the amount of attacks as being more important than the quality of the attacks. Don't get me wrong, when the opportunity presents itself I'll take the Furious Charge (from Straken or Creed) and I'll take it happily. Most often though my opponents does not allow me that charge and I fall back on Counter Assault (from the same source) and weight of numbers.

Grenade launchers I have already mentioned and, more often than not, I wouldn't dare try to use flamers for fear of being left out of charge-range. I don't feel I need the flamers for anti-horde work as I use timely FRFSRFs for that.
Plasmaguns might help me against heavy infantry, but again I rely on weight of numbers.
The melta, on the other hand, helps me in two very important situations.
It helps me reliably pop a transport to maybe assault the unit inside and it helps me stop those dreadnoughts that lasts forever against a blob. The fact that it might pop a terminator or some-such is simply gravy.
That doesn't mean that I run around looking for opportunities to use the meltas and "waste hundreds of points of guardsmen".
It means that, should my firepower units (Vendettas, Hydras or the like) fail to open transports or stop the biggest threat to my blobs, they have a decent chance of doing it themselves.

As my assault blobs will most often run I don't consider them firepower-units and equipping them with "just-in-case-Meltas" certainly don't distract them from that. It rather helps them.

This all works from the assumption that we are talking about assault blobs and that these blobs (multiple) are supported by appropriate characters and firepower-units helping them do their job.

Alright, I've been doing some reading of both the codex, and through the main rulebook back and forth. It's going to take me a bit of time to get used to all the universal special rules, but I'm getting a hang of it.


So Straken is quite potentially worth taking, if I have a super blob of 50 men, and if I have potentially more than one blob. One thing I've noticed though, and I'm completely unsure of:

The Counter assault and furious charge: They stack correct? As in, if I charge, I get furious charge, but if someone charges me, does the counter assault, mean I get furious charge as well? So if I charge or you charge, I get extra strength and initiative for the first round.

OR, does furious charge only count if I specifically charge, regardless of counter assault, so if they charge me, only counter assault helps, and furious charge does not.


I'm slowly warming up to the idea of straken potentially in my army, but I'll have to make him a rather nice conversion of a standard guardsman. Not sure how, but I'll be sure to make him awesome enough some how. Maybe make him a 'psyker' character or something or other, at least visually. A floating power-man leading the troops does sound cool, even if it's a bit... Unusual. Could model him out of an inquisitor perhaps? Either way it would be a model stand in for Straken. I'll still never ever use an actual special character model.


But for now, we'll put that aside and assume I'm not taking him. I'll have to model him first.


As for that squad anyhow, does this sound decent? :

50 men
all 5 sarges with PW
Commisar with PW (Worth giving him a PP or no?)
3 sarges with meltas,
2 squads with Kraks (at the front)
One priest (Who will also be modeled out of a guardsman with either a very large powerhammer, or a very large chainsword or two, and made 'heroic' in appearance)

That should run...
50x5=250
Commisar is 45 (PW, but no PP)
50 for sarges PW
15 for meltas
20 for Kraks
Total = 370 points?
I could add 50 points in Melta guns... But I might be better with just 3 melta guns. I don't think many more past that would really be too much of a benifit if the first 3 failed.
That would make it a nice round 400 points. That's a very costly single squad. More with the Priest, and more if he's got an eviscerator...

Another thing I've noticed, is that if I charge with this 50+ man squad, they do have a chance of being wiped out in one round due to me failing miserably with the dice gods, and then swept away.

Would it be smart to also charge with another basic 10 man squad? If nothing else to make sure that no sweeping advances occured (I could if both fell back at once I suppose) But this squad doesn't have a commissar, so would that even help out much at all?

And concerning the priest, since they're ICs, I see that those are easier to single out, and have to kill within their 'bubble' sort of, so would he be best left near the back for his benefits, or would it be worth giving him the eviscerator just in case of something big jumping in? Or should the above krak and meltas do the job?

Ailaros, do you actually play guard?
Are you trying to sabotage a new player intentionally?

The Autocannon is the most efficient anti AV10, AV11, and AV12 heavy weapon. Period.

The meltagun is also essential as it gives you a serious chance of killing any tank that moves into 12" of a meltagun squad.

According to GW FAQ, if you counter attack you don't also gain the bonuses of furious charge.

Forgoing Autocannons and replacing them with suicide squads is a terrible idea.
1. If the squad doesn't run at first, and does one player turn later, your gunline is screwed. Period.
2. If the squad multicharges you, your gunline is screwed.
3. If you don't wipe the squad out in one turn, your gunline is screwed.
4. If the squad has flamers, you can kiss your squad goodbye, and they will still multicharge you.
5. If the enemy has any serious ordnance, your plans are wrecked again.
6. You will have serious deployment issues putting suicide squads all over the place, especially if you don't want to give the enemy cover.

Now, I am not disputing that the numbers on Autocannons killing transports are grim. Particularly so when the enemy transport is AV 12.
However, it isn't all bad. Yes, a chimera in cover is tough as hell to get rid of, and autocannons are not going to do it for you.
However, an advancing chimera (large side AV10 visible) or rhino (AV 11) out of cover is much easier to kill, which makes it totally reasonable to expect your autocannons to be able to deal with them if taken in sufficient amounts and protected.

Depending on the amount of terrain you use, you might find the 50 man blob a bit unwieldy. Also keep in mind that getting 50 into combat can be quite difficult.

I find 40 to be a better size.

50 men is way to big. IMO, it will actually decrease survivability against shooting. You will bunch up when you're trying to move 50 guys around, and you will remove handfulls to every blast or template weapon. You won't get them all into combat either.

IMO, 30 is the best size for cc blobs.

Hmm, longish thread...

I've been in exactly this position Gearheadwhat, been slowly and casually building a mainly infantry IG army for the past year or two, and trying to learn from some of the more cunning IG players here on Dakka. Allow me to share some of what I've gleaned in my personal experience:

There is nothing in the troops section of the IG list that's useless. People will argue about the benefits of this or that weapon/unit combo until the sun comes up, because this is the internet.

The best way to go about this is to not get carried away with wargear (gives you more bodies on the ground), and specialise your squads. Jack of All Trades doesn't play well for 5th ed IG.

Orders are vital for an infantry army, giving you very nice buffing for your units, and controvertial as it may be, Autocannons are actually great against transports and light armor. From hard experience. And so are Grenade Launchers.

Voxes are up to you, I prefer to save the points for meltabombs, special weapons etc and just have more shots than the re-roll on orders, but if you like 'em use 'em.
The same with Heavy Weapons teams. They attract firepower and can cause a lot of damage, but over-reliance on them will lead you to the same problems as any other method.

Blobs should be at least 3 squads, and the humble lasgun is, believe it or not, fantastic thanks to FRF! orders.

Veterans are, in my opinion, best used as objective-grabbers in a transport instead of part of the gunline, as orders can give you the same benefits as their BS4 without any increase in points. They can be a points sink (thanks to all their options) and generally die just as easy as regular guard, whatever wargear you give them.

Most importantly, specialise and diversify. And play. We can all help advise you (read batreps too, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275485.page is a good place to start) but you've got to get comfy with your own personal style.

I hope that helps, I'll post more later. Good luck!

ph34r wrote:
The Autocannon is the most efficient anti AV10, AV11, and AV12 heavy weapon. Period.

The meltagun is also essential as it gives you a serious chance of killing any tank that moves into 12" of a meltagun squad.

According to GW FAQ, if you counter attack you don't also gain the bonuses of furious charge.

Now, I am not disputing that the numbers on Autocannons killing transports are grim. Particularly so when the enemy transport is AV 12.
However, it isn't all bad. Yes, a chimera in cover is tough as hell to get rid of, and autocannons are not going to do it for you.
However, an advancing chimera (large side AV10 visible) or rhino (AV 11) out of cover is much easier to kill, which makes it totally reasonable to expect your autocannons to be able to deal with them if taken in sufficient amounts and protected.

Thanks for the reply. If that's what the faq says, then I'll go with that. (I suppose I should go find all those faqs and erratas, I didn't even think about those)

As for the autocannon, I'm going to use it, just out of pure love for the damned gun. And I do prefer it over the HB even against your basic infantry. Though on occasion an extra shot is nice, the lack of range and versatility isn't worth it, especially that now they're the same price to take. And I do think I'll use meltas here and there, even just for intimidation's sake.

Captain Roderick wrote:Hmm, longish thread...

I've been in exactly this position Gearheadwhat, been slowly and casually building a mainly infantry IG army for the past year or two, and trying to learn from some of the more cunning IG players here on Dakka. Allow me to share some of what I've gleaned in my personal experience:

There is nothing in the troops section of the IG list that's useless. People will argue about the benefits of this or that weapon/unit combo until the sun comes up, because this is the internet.

Thanks for taking time to read everything. I really do appreciate it. And as for this being the internet, I agree

Captain Roderick wrote:
The best way to go about this is to not get carried away with wargear (gives you more bodies on the ground), and specialise your squads. Jack of All Trades doesn't play well for 5th ed IG.

I'm beginning to understand that. Makes me curious if it's even worth putting GLs in my basic infantry squad, but at the same time, if I don't, I'm only saving myself... not quite enough to even take an extra squad. So I don't know. 50 points, is 10 GLs here and there. That's a lot of extra firepower spread out. And just the idea that I've got templates and a little extra anti heavy here and there could help just for a fear factor.

Captain Roderick wrote:
Orders are vital for an infantry army, giving you very nice buffing for your units, and controvertial as it may be, Autocannons are actually great against transports and light armor. From hard experience. And so are Grenade Launchers.

I'm entirely new to orders, and just from my LGS I've heard they're really not impressive most of the time. Kind of cool when they work, but definitely not something to rely on.

Here again, it becomes hard not to want to take both ACs and GLs in the same squad. Tough decisions. But 90% of people seem to like this combo, and even stat/math wise it appeals to me.

Captain Roderick wrote:
Voxes are up to you, I prefer to save the points for meltabombs, special weapons etc and just have more shots than the re-roll on orders, but if you like 'em use 'em.
The same with Heavy Weapons teams. They attract firepower and can cause a lot of damage, but over-reliance on them will lead you to the same problems as any other method.

In this age, where voxes aren't voxes, but mega phones, I just don't seem to care for voxes anymore... That's what I miss from the last guard codex. I never thought of equating the cost of a vox to the cost of a melta bomb. It's simple, but I completely overlooked it. I don't know if I'll take many though, but it's something I'll consider more.

As for heavy weapons, the question at this point, is are they worth taking since I'm not using vehicles? I am effectively completely vulnerable to AV 13/14, and the only option to increase my odds are to take lascannon squads, which admittedly aren't much better that what I've got, and they're really expensive and fragile... And if I do take a few, that's a lot of lost bodies on the field, which against the high AV thing, might not be a good idea even if I DO kill it....

Captain Roderick wrote:
Blobs should be at least 3 squads, and the humble lasgun is, believe it or not, fantastic thanks to FRF! orders.

It seems that no one agrees on the size they should be.... From what I've gathered, less than 30 and not enough will survive to do the job. I understand 50 is very unweildly but they're going to die fast anyhow... I've seen a few who say 40 is the way to go, which I might just do, since it's the cop out and the middle road

Captain Roderick wrote:
Veterans are, in my opinion, best used as objective-grabbers in a transport instead of part of the gunline, as orders can give you the same benefits as their BS4 without any increase in points. They can be a points sink (thanks to all their options) and generally die just as easy as regular guard, whatever wargear you give them.

So in my case of not taking transports, they may be overrated, and aren't bringing much extra to my game then. I may have to put them aside then.

Captain Roderick wrote:
Most importantly, specialise and diversify. And play. We can all help advise you (read batreps too, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275485.page is a good place to start) but you've got to get comfy with your own personal style.

Specializing and diversity is good, but hard to achieve with just infantry... Without taking vets anyhow, which may not be worth it in a foot slogging approach.

I understand I need to play to get used to it. As of yet though, I don't have the army put together, and I've only got a few old models that I didn't sell off. I'm really trying to make sense of effectively an entirely new game to me, even though I used to play once upon a time. A large part of all of these questions, is to gather an idea of what I should start off with, so I know what to go out and buy and start painting. I'm trying to start at 1000 points, but I do plan on continuing to expand much past that, and as I learn and add models, I'll be able to make more informed decisions on what to get next. It's just knowing where I should start out with to be able to do well.

I could always go willy-nilly and jump in blind, lose a lot, then slowly get better. Hard experience is always the best. But I would rather not get mopped off the table again and again in the process, and at least be able to do well, if not win every now and then.

Captain Roderick wrote:
I hope that helps, I'll post more later. Good luck!

You most certainly have helped. I really appreciate your straightforwardness and willingness to more or less talk to me than to preach

I really do thank everyone for your comments. It's really helped me out a lot. Just this simple thread has really helped me wrap my head around how things have changed, and sort of 'woken' me up to how things are now. I understand a lot of you disagree on things, but I do see where you all are coming from with each, and I do appreciate your views, as different as they can be at times. Ailaros, even though no one here seems to agree with you, I'm glad you have been willing to at least share your views with me, and be honest with me when you're not sure how you would do things. Steelmage, Ph34r, L. Wrex, and everyone else as well, I thank you. I really do like the community that's grown here. Thanks for all the input guys.

I'm going to write up a few 1000 point lists and put them up later today, if you could take a look at what I've made out of all the input, I would be in your debt. I'll also give an explanation for each squad as well, and I guess it will go from there.

Steelmage99 wrote:That does not have to be true. You can think of the meltas as being in support of the blob, not the purpose of the blob...

Okay, sure. If you're taking them for blob insurance, that's one thing, just don't go around pretending like their role should be to take down tanks or transports. I'd still note, though, that if you're playing a CC blob, there are other, cheaper ways to take insurance (meltabombs, or upgrading your priest to have an eviscerator) that are cheaper and don't require you to use special weapons spots.

gearheadwhat wrote:
As for that squad anyhow, does this sound decent? :

50 men
all 5 sarges with PW
Commisar with PW (Worth giving him a PP or no?)
3 sarges with meltas,
2 squads with Kraks (at the front)
One priest (Who will also be modeled out of a guardsman with either a very large powerhammer, or a very large chainsword or two, and made 'heroic' in appearance)

That should run...
50x5=250
Commisar is 45 (PW, but no PP)
50 for sarges PW
15 for meltas
20 for Kraks
Total = 370 points?
I could add 50 points in Melta guns... But I might be better with just 3 melta guns. I don't think many more past that would really be too much of a benifit if the first 3 failed.
That would make it a nice round 400 points. That's a very costly single squad. More with the Priest, and more if he's got an eviscerator...

And concerning the priest, since they're ICs, I see that those are easier to single out, and have to kill within their 'bubble' sort of, so would he be best left near the back for his benefits, or would it be worth giving him the eviscerator just in case of something big jumping in? Or should the above krak and meltas do the job?

Don't bother with a plasma pistol for the commissars. It's too many points for what is invariably a one-shot weapon. Plus, the last thing you need is plasma burns dropping your stubborn shield. Likewise, I don't know if I'd bother with krak grenades.

I would highly recommend the priest. If you keep him in the back of the blob, his 6" movement won't allow him to be targetable (as he won't actually get into combat), but he still gives the rest of the squad rerolls. Personally, I would still give him an eviscerator because it can do RUDE damage to vehicles (thus making it so you don't need krak grenades). Remember that vehicles can't attack back in close combat, so if you do a multi-charge where your squad attacks their squad and your priest charges the vehicle, the priest can do rerollable eviscerator attacks without worrying about getting killed, all while still giving rerolls to the rest of the squad attacking the infantry.

Yeah, you have to plan out movement more carefully, but it's still worth it.

As for GLACs, individual GLACs are pathetic, math tells us so. I have yet to hear good arguments for taking pathetic weapons. In order to make them effective, you need to take lots of them (once again, math). I have yet to hear good arguments for spending hundreds of points on autocannons in order to stop tens of points of transports, especially when they're so bad against non-transport targets (math).

No amount of incredulous personal attacks or mere assertions to the opposite will get me to change my position. I can only hope that new people (like the OP) will be able to see the truth as told by math and reason, rather than succumbing to the position based on popularity and fallacy.

ph34r wrote:Ailaros, do you actually play guard?
Are you trying to sabotage a new player intentionally?

No to the first, and maybe to the second. I advise any guard player to do as I did and just ignore his posts. He's obstinate, obtuse, and obnoxious and will drive your blood pressure up to no purpose.

So, that being said, meltaguns are actually not bad at all in close combat blobs, and I frequently use them myself. Why wouldn't you want to use a close combat blob to pop transports when you can immediately charge the occupants? What if the opponent sends some dreadnoughts in your direction? Oh yes, let's rely on melta-bombs, which cost 5 points each and has a fraction of the utility/reliability of a meltagun (remember, the meltagun can always be twin-linked). Do you pop the transport and then get mauled by the occupants? Or do you hope to roll a six to hit the dreadnought? Not to mention that melting the face off a few Space Marines makes the subsequent combat that much easier.

As for voxes, they are totally worth it for blob squads, commissars or no. It's only 5 points for the entire blob, and even Ld9 can fail. A re-roll is the most powerful ability in the game, value it. On that note, make sure there is a company standard around so you can re-roll that occasional failed Ld check, too.

Ailaros wrote:
Don't bother with a plasma pistol for the commissars. It's too many points for what is invariably a one-shot weapon. Plus, the last thing you need is plasma burns dropping your stubborn shield. Likewise, I don't know if I'd bother with krak grenades.

Okay, I will probably leave the PP behind, and use the points for the melta. Even in a squad of 40 men, I think I'll stop at 3 meltas.

Ailaros wrote:
I would highly recommend the priest. If you keep him in the back of the blob, his 6" movement won't allow him to be targetable (as he won't actually get into combat), but he still gives the rest of the squad rerolls. Personally, I would still give him an eviscerator because it can do RUDE damage to vehicles (thus making it so you don't need krak grenades). Remember that vehicles can't attack back in close combat, so if you do a multi-charge where your squad attacks their squad and your priest charges the vehicle, the priest can do rerollable eviscerator attacks without worrying about getting killed, all while still giving rerolls to the rest of the squad attacking the infantry.

Yeah, you have to plan out movement more carefully, but it's still worth it.

I think that's what I will do. The word eviscerator is just fun to say too, and I do remember one of the local guard players years ago laughing like a mad fool when his eviscerator took out the HQ of the opponent's forces (I think it was Tyranid HQ, or some other monstrous creature).

Ailaros wrote:
As for GLACs, individual GLACs are pathetic, math tells us so. I have yet to hear good arguments for taking pathetic weapons. In order to make them effective, you need to take lots of them (once again, math). I have yet to hear good arguments for spending hundreds of points on autocannons in order to stop tens of points of transports, especially when they're so bad against non-transport targets (math).

Personally, I'm going to use them. Having them spread out like I plan on, in various squads, I should virtually always get a side armor shot from a squad that's not in the line of fire. And unless I'm getting attacked from another hoard army (orks) I should be just fine there. As for those hoards, I will just shoot them when given the chance at whatever is appropriate, when it's timely to do so.

Terminus wrote:
So, that being said, meltaguns are actually not bad at all in close combat blobs, and I frequently use them myself. Why wouldn't you want to use a close combat blob to pop transports when you can immediately charge the occupants? What if the opponent sends some dreadnoughts in your direction? Oh yes, let's rely on melta-bombs, which cost 5 points each and has a fraction of the utility/reliability of a meltagun (remember, the meltagun can always be twin-linked). Do you pop the transport and then get mauled by the occupants? Or do you hope to roll a six to hit the dreadnought? Not to mention that melting the face off a few Space Marines makes the subsequent combat that much easier.

As for voxes, they are totally worth it for blob squads, commissars or no. It's only 5 points for the entire blob, and even Ld9 can fail. A re-roll is the most powerful ability in the game, value it. On that note, make sure there is a company standard around so you can re-roll that occasional failed Ld check, too.

I think I'll go 50/50 here probably. Since I've decided to take a 40 man blob, I'll have 3 meltas, commissar, 5 PWs, 2 meltas, a priest with eviscerator, and 10 men with Kraks. That should give them a reasonable amount of ability to do their job (CC oriented), move and be dangerous (meltas) and in the event something hideous get's into CC with them, which is highly likely considering that's what hideous CC monstrosities do, then I'll be good with 2 meltas, 10 kraks, and an eviscerator. And all of this is relatively ablative due to there being a good 23 wounds before I lose any of those, not even a krak grenade.


I do have a few more rules questions I guess.

First, priests, they don't stack with counter-attack right? As far as I understand it, it doesn't stack with anything.

Second. Commissar re rolls, and standard rerolls....

So say I have to make a LD test. I fail, then I use the standard reroll, fail, okay, so my commissar caps a sarge (PW lost, and 50% loss of melta bomb), I then make a new LD test. Is that correct? Now, assuming I make that test and fail, then they fall back, correct? I believe it would be cheese if I got to reroll that second test again with the standard. That's 4 rolls..

Which brings up the second part to that question, which takes priority? The standard or the commissar? If the standard, then what i had above is correct, yes? If it's the commissar, do I roll, fail, cap, then reroll. If I fail that then use the standard reroll?

OR

Is it subject to the only one reroll, in which case:

I roll, fail, use the standard to reroll, fail, then fall back (No commissar capping, since that would be a second reroll, and 40k doesn't allow second rerolls)

In that case, I still get two rolls, and the commissar never caps anyone as long as the regimental standard is near.

OR

Am I entirely wrong and I need more help than I thought....

gearheadwhat wrote:I think I'll go 50/50 here probably. Since I've decided to take a 40 man blob, I'll have 3 meltas, commissar, 5 PWs, 2 meltas, a priest with eviscerator, and 10 men with Kraks. That should give them a reasonable amount of ability to do their job (CC oriented), move and be dangerous (meltas) and in the event something hideous get's into CC with them, which is highly likely considering that's what hideous CC monstrosities do, then I'll be good with 2 meltas, 10 kraks, and an eviscerator. And all of this is relatively ablative due to there being a good 23 wounds before I lose any of those, not even a krak grenade.

Yes, if you're using 40-man squads, you don't need more than three meltaguns, and the last special weapon can easily be a flamer. Give the krak grenades to the squad that has the commissar, so you actually get 11 men with them. I'm not a big fan of Priests since for the cost I rather just add ten more guardsmen with a power weapon, but if you have the points to spare, I guess go for it.

I do have a few more rules questions I guess.

First, priests, they don't stack with counter-attack right? As far as I understand it, it doesn't stack with anything.

Second. Commissar re rolls, and standard rerolls....

Correct, the priest bonus is when charging only, so it doesn't stack with counter-attack (oh man, I loved the couple of weeks where the SW FAQ actually allowed counter attack to stack with furious charge).

As for the Commissar vs. standard, you can only re-roll dice once, so the simplest option is that you pick which ability you want to use first. If your opponent raises a stink about it, simply flip a coin on which ability you get to use.

Now, if we go with the first option, and you picked the standard re-roll and failed that as well, then the Commissar's ability would kick in. He would shoot one of the sarges in the face, but since you can't re-roll a re-roll, you fall back anyway. Seems like a fair compromise.

Okay, I made the list up. It's in the list subforum right now. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/295139.page#1577200

I ended up taking the meltas out of the blob, and gave it to the CCS. So the blob is relatively bare, but does have some CC goodies.


Okay... So I take it there is no written rules about how to handle platoon standard, and commissar rules overlapping...

So I roll, fail, reroll, fail again, and then I'll say I fall back. Since I can't reroll a second time, I'll simply state that the commissars rule doesn't get the chance to go into effect. Now if there is no platoon standard nearby, then I'm not worried about it.

And if the opponent gets upset over that, then I'll roll off with him to see if the commissar caps the guy or not. Which just means he caps people and doesn't get a reroll, which is sort of the point...

If it went the other way around, with the commissar capping first always, then the Regimental standard would be worthless to commissar squads, since they'd always cap someone first, and the standard doesn't let you reroll a reroll.

Uhg. I wish GW had an official statement on this. I guess I'm off to find all the FAQs and erratas and if I can't find anything on it, I'll email them or something with the question.

Ailaros wrote:As for GLACs, individual GLACs are pathetic, math tells us so. I have yet to hear good arguments for taking pathetic weapons. In order to make them effective, you need to take lots of them (once again, math). I have yet to hear good arguments for spending hundreds of points on autocannons in order to stop tens of points of transports, especially when they're so bad against non-transport targets (math).

Oh really?

Let's have a quick look at Autocannons. I'm leaving Grenade Launchers out of the question for now, as that's looking more at strategy than raw efficiency.

If you're looking to Wreck or Destroy a vehicle (to neutralise it entirely), you get the following expected values for each of the three Heavy Weapons with any armour-penetrating ability:
(In order v. AV 10, 11, 12, 13)

Autocannon - 16.7%, 11.1%, 5.6%, 0.0%
Krak Missile - 11.1%, 8.3%, 5.6%, 2.8%
Lascannon - 13.9%, 11.1%, 8.3%, 5.6%

If you're looking to Wreck, Destroy or get a specific one of Weapon Destroy or Immobilise (to neutralise artillery or big guns, or to permanently disable a transport), you get:

Autocannon - 27.8%, 19.4%, 11.1%, 2.8%
Krak Missile - 18.1%, 13.9%, 9.7%, 5.6%
Lascannon - 22.2%, 18.1%, 13.9%, 9.7%

And if you're looking to Stun, Immobilise, Wreck or Destroy (to temporarily deal with a non-Extra Armoured transport) you get:

Autocannon - 38.9%, 27.8%, 16.7%, 5.6%
Krak Missile - 25.0%, 19.4%, 13.9%, 8.3%
Lascannon - 30.6%, 25.0%, 19.4%, 13.9%

In other words, Autocannons always outperform Lascannons against AV 10, are always at least as good against AV 11, and are almost as good at halting AV12 for a turn. What's more, they're never less than 2/3 the efficiency of a Lascannon against AV12, regardless of what you want them to do.

In terms of cost efficiency, the Autocannon is just plain better than Missile Launchers or Lascannons against all vehicles AV12 or less when just considering the cost of the upgrade. If you instead consider the cost of the entire Infantry Squad, it is still more cost efficient against AV10 or 11, more efficient at Stun+ on AV12, and 93% the efficiency of a Lascannon at immobilising+ AV12.

Against light vehicles, the Autocannon is the most cost efficient upgrade. In fact, the (upgrade) cost necessary to mathematically expect to stop a Rhino for at least a turn is not more than 103.1% the cost of the Rhino itself - whether they've paid for extra armour or not. Hardly paying "hundreds of points... to stop tens of points"

I've seen you quote maths as the reason Autocannons are weak for a while now, but have never seen you actually produce numbers. Please enlighten me.

SUHN-TZOO SEZ:

Ailaros thinks that squad heavy weapons are all bad ways of dealing with vehicles and their occupants, not that autocannons aren't the best of a bad lot for that purpose, so far as I can tell.

gearheadwhat wrote:Okay, I made the list up. It's in the list subforum right now. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/295139.page#1577200

I ended up taking the meltas out of the blob, and gave it to the CCS. So the blob is relatively bare, but does have some CC goodies.

That squad would be far better served with meltaguns rather than the priest, if you are strapped for points. You don't always get the charge (particularly since you're foot slogging) and against some armies (fully mechanized ones that just sit in their transports for example) you may never see combat at all.

@Aelyn: You are wasting your time, you really are. He has been beaten over the head with the numbers by AT LEAST 20 people (I am not exaggerating). That thing must be adamantium, because no one has yet to make a dent. He exists on a different plane of existence, where math and statistics function very differently, and his reality is about as relevant to the game we all play as the price of Marklars on Marklar. Save yourself the trouble.

Ailaros wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:That does not have to be true. You can think of the meltas as being in support of the blob, not the purpose of the blob...

Okay, sure. If you're taking them for blob insurance, that's one thing, just don't go around pretending like their role should be to take down tanks or transports.

I don't believe anybody is "pretending their role is to take down tanks and transports". Maybe it is an assumption on your part, because I don't see it.

I'd still note, though, that if you're playing a CC blob, there are other, cheaper ways to take insurance (meltabombs,

1. We are talking about cc blobs and have been from post one.
2. I, at least, already take meltabombs in addition to the meltaguns.

or upgrading your priest to have an eviscerator) that are cheaper and don't require you to use special weapons spots.

Keep in mind that while the eviscerator priest cuts up transports like there is no tomorrow, there are a few drawbacks.

1. Eviscerators are cc weapons, meaning you have essentially "wasted hundreds of points of guardsmen" (see what I did there?) opening up the transport with no possibility of your blob assaulting the content.

2. As Priests are ICs, they can, and will, be singled out by dreadoughts (and most likely be killed) before utilizing their eviscerators.

I do like using Priests, but I rarely, if ever, upgrade them, instead keeping in the "rear with the gear" granting rerolls and not much else. This works for me as my cc blobs is based on "quantity over quality".

gearheadwhat wrote:

Captain Roderick wrote:Hmm, longish thread...

Thanks for taking time to read everything. I really do appreciate it. And as for this being the internet, I agree

Erm, I didn't actually read it all... I skimmed some of the sections that seemed most densely packed with nerdrage

gearheadwhat wrote:
I'm beginning to understand that. Makes me curious if it's even worth putting GLs in my basic infantry squad, but at the same time, if I don't, I'm only saving myself... not quite enough to even take an extra squad. So I don't know. 50 points, is 10 GLs here and there. That's a lot of extra firepower spread out. And just the idea that I've got templates and a little extra anti heavy here and there could help just for a fear factor.

There was a nice thread about GL's a while back. Suffice it to say, for 5 points, they're pretty good. The fact you can pop MEQ transports with enough of them, then add yet more S3 hits to the volleys of your lasgun fire, all for just 5 points and while on the move makes them pretty cool. Like with most special weapons however, they're best used in concentration. Either a SWS with 3 or a PCS with 4 is much better use of them than spread out in 3 squads, since only long fangs can split fire in 5th ed. That's what I mean by specialisation really, concentrate weapons for certain tasks in as few squads as possible, so that you're not hamstrung by using all your army to shoot 1 or 2 targets. You want whatever you choose to shoot at to go down fast so you can deal with something else.
Having GLAC squads is just fine though, since both weapons are dual purpose and have the same targets in mind, e.g. transports first, infantry second.

gearheadwhat wrote:
I'm entirely new to orders, and just from my LGS I've heard they're really not impressive most of the time. Kind of cool when they work, but definitely not something to rely on.

Here again, it becomes hard not to want to take both ACs and GLs in the same squad. Tough decisions. But 90% of people seem to like this combo, and even stat/math wise it appeals to me.

The best thing to rely on is lots of guns, since unless your CCS is in a chimera or you've got Creed, you'll either have to sacrifice even more mobility to stay in orders range or just not give orders. That's why I was going to reccomend Creed to you. 4 orders out to 24" range, the ability to throw furious charge onto your troops, and the opportunity to have one unit have Scout and therefore get closer to the enemy or outflank - suddenly your blob is a lot scarier. An all-infantry army is hugely helped by Creed, since without him you have to be very careful with unit separation (not so close as to be too vulnerable to blasts, not so far as to be out of orders range).
Orders can be a game-winner, but they're not all that flexible either. I'd say the most common one used is Bring it Down!, then First Rank Fire!, then Get Back in the Fight! - thinking about that should help you get your head around how best to use your CCS' to support your troops.

gearheadwhat wrote:
In this age, where voxes aren't voxes, but mega phones, I just don't seem to care for voxes anymore... That's what I miss from the last guard codex. I never thought of equating the cost of a vox to the cost of a melta bomb. It's simple, but I completely overlooked it. I don't know if I'll take many though, but it's something I'll consider more.

As for heavy weapons, the question at this point, is are they worth taking since I'm not using vehicles? I am effectively completely vulnerable to AV 13/14, and the only option to increase my odds are to take lascannon squads, which admittedly aren't much better that what I've got, and they're really expensive and fragile... And if I do take a few, that's a lot of lost bodies on the field, which against the high AV thing, might not be a good idea even if I DO kill it....

Certainly, most high AV things are probably going to try and get in your face to mince your flimsy little guardsmen in HtH, such as Land Raiders. That makes a PCS with meltaguns preferable to a horde of lascannons every day. My personally prefered system is a Leman Russ Demolisher with hull lascannon, pushing close to the front and throwing out S10 pies, but that doesn't fit your ethos so I guess you'll have to go with meltaguns and hope they'll either come to you or be worth ignoring.

gearheadwhat wrote:
It seems that no one agrees on the size they should be.... From what I've gathered, less than 30 and not enough will survive to do the job. I understand 50 is very unweildly but they're going to die fast anyhow... I've seen a few who say 40 is the way to go, which I might just do, since it's the cop out and the middle road

I've heard 40 is a good number. Hopefully Dpaul will recount the tale of his most recent blobjoy to help give you some confidence.

gearheadwhat wrote:

So in my case of not taking transports, they may be overrated, and aren't bringing much extra to my game then. I may have to put them aside then.

Yeah, take SWS and PCS instead of vets. cheaper for the same amount of bang, especially with orders. 1 SWS with demo charge and 2 flamers = 65pts. you can have two squads like that per platoon, and you can kill a whole lot of anything with that...

gearheadwhat wrote:
Specializing and diversity is good, but hard to achieve with just infantry... Without taking vets anyhow, which may not be worth it in a foot slogging approach.

I understand I need to play to get used to it. As of yet though, I don't have the army put together, and I've only got a few old models that I didn't sell off. I'm really trying to make sense of effectively an entirely new game to me, even though I used to play once upon a time. A large part of all of these questions, is to gather an idea of what I should start off with, so I know what to go out and buy and start painting. I'm trying to start at 1000 points, but I do plan on continuing to expand much past that, and as I learn and add models, I'll be able to make more informed decisions on what to get next. It's just knowing where I should start out with to be able to do well.

I could always go willy-nilly and jump in blind, lose a lot, then slowly get better. Hard experience is always the best. But I would rather not get mopped off the table again and again in the process, and at least be able to do well, if not win every now and then.

Quite right, and if you don't have the minis I sympathise totally. I've been building this army for a year and still most of it is proxy. I've taken to making tanks from old card recently

Your specialisation and diversity comes from SWS, PCS', and how you equip and use your infantry squads. Ideally any squad should be tailored to annihilate a certain kind of target in one turn, or rather, since we're guard, any group of squads should be tailored so. wanna pop a transport? 2 or 3 GLAC infantry squads with BiD. Wanna destroy those pesky stealers that just ran out of the foliage? flamer PCS and maybe a flamer/demo SWS. wanna kill LOADS of orks? 40-man GLAC blob with FRF! orders.

gearheadwhat wrote:

Captain Roderick wrote:
I hope that helps, I'll post more later. Good luck!

You most certainly have helped. I really appreciate your straightforwardness and willingness to more or less talk to me than to preach

No worries chief, I spend plenty of my time on my high horse around here (just look at my .sig for god's sake) but I feel your pain, and know exactly where you're at just now.

I shall endeavor to reply to other people's comments in the next 48 hours. Don't hold your breath though.

I'm slightly surprised that no-one's mentioned Penal Legion yet. In a mech force they don't tend to perform that well, but I reason that in an all-infantry army they could really shine. The Outflank rule in itself would alllow them to contest/capture objectives that are sitting on the backfield and their special rules do allow you to roll prior to deployment, thus granting you some flexibility.

Also, rather than running multiple Commisars, why not simply run a single Lord Commisar in the midst of your infantry? Hide him in the back ranks (to avoid getting smushed by Dreads etc) of a 30-40 man blob and now you've got a 6" leadership bubble to take advantage from.

Just something to think about...

L. Wrex

Glad to hear another IG player going for the Infantry en masse route. Hope you enjoy playing guard as much as as we have. Here are a few general pointers that I hope will help:

1. Cliche' aside, there's strength in numbers - vets are fun to use, but put enough bodies on the table and it will be daunting and overwhelming for your opponents just looking at your troops.

2. Quantify your units with the advantage they can give, and not the points they can get back, there are a lot of units in the codex that will be a bit odd but you will find use for sooner or later, whether in fun games or competitive ones.

example:

-(although you are going for all infantry) pask on a vanquisher with lascannons and meltas might seem steep (and he is), but if you think having him in your army assures you that your opponent will be walking his units turn 2 and onward then by all means go for it.

-Ogryns at 200pts a squad is probably not the heavy hitter you are looking for but its a good tarpit (especially for dangerous ICs) and fires 15 str 5 shots (in a chimera they are good infantry killers).

-ratlings + psyker battle squad combo is an expensive combo to run. but say you managed to pin down 3 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolf mounts joined to a squad of fenris wolves or a squad of 10 assault marines just itchin to hammer you to pieces then its not all that bad.

-Straken rarely kills squat but everyone else around him does.

3. In relation to 2nd item, the codex is fun so I wouldn't limit myself, but if in doubt, proxy! imho, 40k is there for our enjoyment, and unless you are very well off, I would suggest using proxies for units you want to try but not sure of having. Guard is the most expensive army I have ever assembled.

4. Orders are great but I would refrain from being to dependent on them. OR If using the orders, I would not be dependent on a particular one lest you fall in habitually using 1 or two orders, while forgetting the others. Mastering the orders increases the army's effectiveness.

example:

- the most common ones are "Bring it down" and "First rank fire! second rank fire!".
- but some of the common ones I use are "Fire on my Target" especially on Wave serpents with "Fortune" and the ever annoying scouts with rifles and camo-cloaks.
- I use "Get back to the Fight" when a squad below 50% runs and I don't want to give up the kill point. or when moving to a better location, combo it with move 6" then issue "Incoming" then issue "Get back to the Fight" next turn.
- Issue "move, move, move!" on my rough riders to keep their fleet deadly dangerous.
- Then there's the ever annoying (to the opponent), troops claims objectives on my last turn then issue "Incoming"

Happy hunting!

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm slightly surprised that no-one's mentioned Penal Legion yet. In a mech force they don't tend to perform that well, but I reason that in an all-infantry army they could really shine. The Outflank rule in itself would alllow them to contest/capture objectives that are sitting on the backfield and their special rules do allow you to roll prior to deployment, thus granting you some flexibility.

Also, rather than running multiple Commisars, why not simply run a single Lord Commisar in the midst of your infantry? Hide him in the back ranks (to avoid getting smushed by Dreads etc) of a 30-40 man blob and now you've got a 6" leadership bubble to take advantage from.

Just something to think about...

L. Wrex

I have tried both of these things.

With the Commisar Lord I found myself missing the second CCS (I run a Straken CCS and a dirt cheap CCS).

With the Penal Legion I found them to small and vulnerable. I tried to "hide" them in a massive amount of outflanking goodness (Al'Rahem platoon, Tactical Genius platoon, Harker Vets, Penal Legion and Vendettas) and even then they were easily picked out. I don't know about other peoples experiences though.

Long thread indeed. For the OP, I have a pretty old batrep that shows a decent foot IG army winning against demons. You'll particularly like it because it uses no special characters.

If you do read it, please don't reply to it. It is many months old and long dead. If you have any questions on my list or other nuances of that game just PM me and I'll be glad to chat about it...

Heres the batrep...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266817.page