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So the setup was my defiler sitting in some ruins, with about half of him covered to obscure him. The opponent rushes forward some bikes, and of course, I move my defiler a few inches forward and shoot. I score wounds on all the bikes, but my opponent tells me he gets a cover save because my defiler is in cover. the defiler IS sitting on a piece of ruins, but the top half of him has clear sight to the bikes twelve inches away, not even the closest of them is covered with the end result being I only killed one of ten with the survivors killing the defiler. Did I misread the cover rules, or is area terrain really a blanket?

ohiopotato wrote:So the setup was my defiler sitting in some ruins, with about half of him covered to obscure him. The opponent rushes forward some bikes, and of course, I move my defiler a few inches forward and shoot. I score wounds on all the bikes, but my opponent tells me he gets a cover save because my defiler is in cover. the defiler IS sitting on a piece of ruins, but the top half of him has clear sight to the bikes twelve inches away, not even the closest of them is covered with the end result being I only killed one of ten with the survivors killing the defiler. Did I misread the cover rules, or is area terrain really a blanket?

It depends, were you shooting through more than 2" of Area terrain? If so, then yes, he got a cover save. If Not, he would not have gotten one.

That's funny. You could have a scenario where said MC gives a cover save to a unit totally in the open, because he is shooting through more than 2" of area terrain even though he has clear LOS, but said unit could shoot him back and deny cover save, because he isn't 50% covered. Classic.

That 2'' rule does not exist. The defiler's view is unobscured, and no cover exception kicks in, therefore the unit does not get a cover save.

The 2" thing refers to units, not vehicles as I read it.

thebetter1 wrote:That 2'' rule does not exist. The defiler's view is unobscured, and no cover exception kicks in, therefore the unit does not get a cover save.

Errm... that 2" rule DOES exist.

Specifically it exists on page 22 of the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, under exceptions, the 4th one in fact and states:

Firing out of area terrain: Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all.

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ArmyC wrote:The 2" thing refers to units, not vehicles as I read it.

It actually refers to models, which vehicles are.

Even if it did say unit, vehicles are still units.

Just so I understand this correctly.

A. If model is in or partly in area terrain and shoots at a unit through more than 2" of area terrain it grants a cover save, even if it has clear LOS

B. If it backs up out of area terrain and is no longer in area terrain and shoots at the same model and still have clear LOS then it doesn't grant a cover save.

Correct?

Gwar! wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:That 2'' rule does not exist. The defiler's view is unobscured, and no cover exception kicks in, therefore the unit does not get a cover save.

Errm... that 2" rule DOES exist.

Specifically it exists on page 22 of the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, under exceptions, the 4th one in fact and states:

Firing out of area terrain: Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all.

This rule means exactly what it says: firing through less than 2'' of area terrain never provides a cover save to the enemy as long as the model can see the target. You are reading it as "Models firing through more than 2'' of the area terrain they are occupying confer a cover save to the target," which is incorrect.

sbeasley wrote:Just so I understand this correctly.

A. If model is in or partly in area terrain and shoots at a unit through more than 2" of area terrain it grants a cover save, even if it has clear LOS

B. If it backs up out of area terrain and is no longer in area terrain and shoots at the same model and still have clear LOS then it doesn't grant a cover save.

Correct?

A is incorrect, B is correct.

sbeasley wrote:
B. If it backs up out of area terrain and is no longer in area terrain and shoots at the same model and still have clear LOS then it doesn't grant a cover save.

It depends on the terrain, firing between elements would grant a save. But generally yes.

thebetter1 wrote:
This rule means exactly what it says: firing through less than 2'' of area terrain never provides a cover save to the enemy as long as the model can see the target. You are reading it as "Models firing through more than 2'' of the area terrain they are occupying confer a cover save to the target," which is incorrect.

sbeasley wrote:Just so I understand this correctly.

A. If model is in or partly in area terrain and shoots at a unit through more than 2" of area terrain it grants a cover save, even if it has clear LOS

B. If it backs up out of area terrain and is no longer in area terrain and shoots at the same model and still have clear LOS then it doesn't grant a cover save.

Correct?

A is incorrect, B is correct.

I didn't say less than 2" I say more than 2"

The only thing I can find a discrepancy with is the model vs unit usage, which I admit is incorrect. But Originally I was referring to a MC.

Fine change model to unit, there now A is correct as well.


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Gorkamorka wrote:

sbeasley wrote:
B. If it backs up out of area terrain and is no longer in area terrain and shoots at the same model and still have clear LOS then it doesn't grant a cover save.

It depends on the terrain, firing between elements would grant a save. But generally yes.

I should have been more clear. The model/unit I was referring to was a MC which would be taller than the terrain, and have clear LOS over the terrain with no elements.

Gwar! wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:That 2'' rule does not exist. The defiler's view is unobscured, and no cover exception kicks in, therefore the unit does not get a cover save.

Errm... that 2" rule DOES exist.

Specifically it exists on page 22 of the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, under exceptions, the 4th one in fact and states:

Firing out of area terrain: Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all.

Just because A implies B does NOT mean that not-A implies not-B.

In this case, A is "The firing unit is within 2" of the edge of the area terrain" and B is "The target does not get a cover save [from that terrain]". If A is true, B is true. However, just because A is false, this does not automatically mean B is false.

If it's area terrain and you are shooting through more than 2" of it to shoot your target, then you are granting them a cover save just as Gwar has said.

Concerning being out of area terrain and shooting through it, Page 22 of the BRB covers that as well. "If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it"

hamsterwheel wrote:If it's area terrain and you are shooting through more than 2" of it to shoot your target, then you are granting them a cover save just as Gwar has said.

Shooting through area terrain only grants a cover save if the target is actually in cover from that terrain. In other words, the target has to actually be in the area terrain, or the LOS needs to pass between elements of the terrain.

So what that 2" rule actually means is that if you are firing through less than 2" of the area terrain you are occupying, and the terrain is conferring a cover save on the target, that cover save is ignored.

It does not say that firing through more than 2" of the terrain you are occupying automatically confers a cover save. Just that firing through less than 2" of it removes the cover save.

insaniak wrote:

hamsterwheel wrote:If it's area terrain and you are shooting through more than 2" of it to shoot your target, then you are granting them a cover save just as Gwar has said.

Shooting through area terrain only grants a cover save if the target is actually in cover from that terrain. In other words, the target has to actually be in the area terrain, or the LOS needs to pass between elements of the terrain.

So what that 2" rule actually means is that if you are firing through less than 2" of the area terrain you are occupying, and the terrain is conferring a cover save on the target, that cover save is ignored.

It does not say that firing through more than 2" of the terrain you are occupying automatically confers a cover save. Just that firing through less than 2" of it removes the cover save.

Thank you for clarifying sir! My reply was originally for the OP who stated his unit was in area terrain and he was receiving a cover save within it.

Sorry, but I think you have misread the original post...

The defiler was in the area terrain. The bikes were not, but were trying to claim a cover save...

Given true WYSIWYG rules, the tall defiler would be able to fire over into the Bikes, Even if you are inside 2" of Area terrain, I would debate the rule given by the fact that wargames aren't meant to be about who can argue rules the most or play things as strict as possible. Wargames are more or less trying to imitate battles that could occur in the 41st millennium (while I know not much is possible like lasers and hovercraft). If the cover is a crater or short ruins and you are peeking out above it, I would imagine in real life, the bikes would get no save, and therefore it should be played that way, especially with a close knit group of friends.

neotom1118 wrote:Given true WYSIWYG rules, the tall defiler would be able to fire over into the Bikes, Even if you are inside 2" of Area terrain, I would debate the rule given by the fact that wargames aren't meant to be about who can argue rules the most or play things as strict as possible. Wargames are more or less trying to imitate battles that could occur in the 41st millennium (while I know not much is possible like lasers and hovercraft). If the cover is a crater or short ruins and you are peeking out above it, I would imagine in real life, the bikes would get no save, and therefore it should be played that way, especially with a close knit group of friends.

A. That's not really helpful in a rules discussion in a rules forum
B. There are rules in place for just what you are describing, and they've been discussed in the thread. Shooting out of area terrain with clear LOS doesn't provide the opponent with cover without extenuating circumstances.

So let me get this straight, If I have a unit of infantry more than 2" inside area terrain with a clear los shot, not through 2 elements of the terrain then this does NOT give the target a coversave? If yes then why did I get the impression otherwise? Did it in older editions? I'm still new to 5th and can't remember most of the previous rule sets.

yournamehere wrote:So let me get this straight, If I have a unit of infantry more than 2" inside area terrain with a clear los shot, not through 2 elements of the terrain then this does NOT give the target a coversave?

Assuming that some part of the area terrain also doesn't actually block LOS to the target, yes, that would be correct.

The 2" rule doesn't give cover where it wouldn't otherwise be conferred. It simply removes the cover in a specific situation.

If yes then why did I get the impression otherwise?

No idea. Probably just because the 2" rule is frequently misconstrued.

If you have a circular area terrain of 6 inches diameter, no trees in it at all, and have a single man standing in the middle of that circle, any shot he did would have to shoot through more than 2" of area terrain, anything he shot at would receive a cover save. (he would be shooting through 2.5" of terrain)

If i then changed the area terrain to be 4 inches diameter, then any shot he did would not automatically give a cover save. (he would only ever shoot through about 1.5" of terrain)

If i had a flat rectangular piece of area terrain that was 3 inches by 10 inches with no trees or obstacles, and i shot through the terrain from outside of it, i would give no cover save.

If i placed a single tree on either short edge of the area terrain, and then shot through, i am then shooting between elements of the area terrain, and the target then gets a cover save.

Age old tree image from page 22.

Seriphis wrote:If you have a circular area terrain of 6 inches diameter, no trees in it at all, and have a single man standing in the middle of that circle, any shot he did would have to shoot through more than 2" of area terrain, anything he shot at would receive a cover save. (he would be shooting through 2.5" of terrain)

Nope. If there are no terrain features for him to be shooting between, the only way an enemy unit would get cover is if the terrain is physically obscuring them.

If your area terrain is a flat circle, the model's firing is never through any cover, and so no cover save is conferred.

Shots at that model would confer a cover save, as he is standing inside area terrain.

Once again, the 2" rule only removes the cover save if the model in the terrain is shooting through less than 2" of terrain. It doesn't add a cover save where none originally existed.

rebuilding post...

RAW, insaniak, states if a unit is in area terrain and shoots through more than 2" of that terrain it gives a cover save.

Seriphis wrote:RAW, insaniak, states if a unit is in area terrain and shoots through more than 2" of that terrain it gives a cover save.

No, it doesn't. What it says is that if a model is firing through up to 2" of terrain there is no cover save. It does not say that firing through more than 2" automatically confers a cover save.

the fact you are firing through the terrain is whats giving the cover, your right, with the cover removed in that case.

I will still posit that the physical representation of the area terrain needn't actually be there, merely the definition that it is area terrain.

Possibly consider the elements as the edges for this example then?

Do you play it that you give no cover save when shooting out of a crater?

Seriphis wrote:the fact you are firing through the terrain is whats giving the cover, your right, with the cover removed in that case.

Exactly: Firing through the area terrain grants cover. That means the shot has to pass between two physical elements of the terrain. The edges of the terrain are not physical elements that the LOS can pass between.

Do you play it that you give no cover save when shooting out of a crater?

I play that the target gets a cover save if they are partially obscured, or if the LOS passes between two elements of the terrain, exactly as the rules say to do it.

So yes, that would generally mean that models being fired at by a unit in a crater would not get a cover save. Models in the crater would.

After reading the section again I see what insaniak is saying. if the area terrain were completely flat, then you would get cover while in it, and it wouldn't matter if you were firing 12" through it if there is no physical terrain elements that you are shooting through to grant a cover save to the target not in the area terrain.

The only time you can ignore the elements is if your model is 2" or less from the edge of area terrain. That is the only stipulation to shoot out of area terrain, to not confer the cover save.

Being in area terrain even if completely flat always confers cover unless the models has specific rules, such as MCs and vehicles, which state they have to be physically 50% covered.

Insaniak, I feel like your interpretation opens it to an unnecessary amount of debate. I read it, and my gaming group plays it, as follows: If your line of fire passes through, over, or underneath the footprint of a piece of area terrain, a coversave is conferred. This makes it a lot less debatable as to where cover saves are conferred or not conferred.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Insaniak, I feel like your interpretation opens it to an unnecessary amount of debate. I read it, and my gaming group plays it, as follows: If your line of fire passes through, over, or underneath the footprint of a piece of area terrain, a coversave is conferred. This makes it a lot less debatable as to where cover saves are conferred or not conferred.

That's not what the rules say at all, though.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Insaniak, I feel like your interpretation opens it to an unnecessary amount of debate.

How so?

I read it, and my gaming group plays it, as follows: If your line of fire passes through, over, or underneath the footprint of a piece of area terrain, a coversave is conferred.

This goes against the third bullet point on page 22, which specifically distinguishes between shots that go through the area terrain and shots that go over it.

Not really seeing where the logic is coming from that firing through 2" of area terrain wouldn't grant a cover save. The paragraph for the 2" portion is directly after mentioning that if your firing between two features in the terrain you grant cover. It would be redundant and pointless to once again mention that if your firing through 2 or more features but are more then 2" away in the same terrain your grant cover. If they meant that paragraph to remove cover if under 2" in the same piece of area terrain they probably would have mentioned something somewhere about the fact that you talking about firing at an enemy model in the same piece of terrain, since that would be the only difference from the paragraph directly above.

It seems pretty clear as day that firing over (through) area terrain while being more then 2" from the border of the area terrain grants a cover save to the target. Now if a vehicle or MC get to use that cover save is another battle on the cover save vs obscured to use the cover save debate team.