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Question.

Can a unit with Scout that is not on the board because of Dawn of War Deployment use a scout move to move onto the board? Now, my immediate reaction is, "Of course not." But, upon further inspection, I see that the sequence of events in the rulebook goes:

1.) Deploy up to 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

2.) Make any Scout moves.

3.) Start the game.

Now, something like a Deffkopta doesn't have to be declared "in Reserve" in DoW, it is simply off the board waiting to come on. What does a unit that is off the board "just like units from Reserve" (as it states at the bottom of Dawn of War), do when it is its movement phase? It moves onto the board. So, we look at Scouts:

". . .before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase. . ."

If I had a unit waiting to come on the board and I'm allowed to move "exactly as in my movement phase", then I would move onto the board.

Therefore, can Scouts use their Scout move to move onto the table edge before the game begins?

puma713 wrote:Question.

Can a unit with Scout that is not on the board because of Dawn of War Deployment use a scout move to move onto the board? Now, my immediate reaction is, "Of course not." But, upon further inspection, I see that the sequence of events in the rulebook goes:

1.) Deploy up to 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

2.) Make any Scout moves.

3.) Start the game.

Now, something like a Deffkopta doesn't have to be declared "in Reserve" in DoW, it is simply off the board waiting to come on. What does a unit that is off the board "just like units from Reserve" (as it states at the bottom of Dawn of War), do when it is its movement phase? It moves onto the board. So, we look at Scouts:

". . .before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase. . ."

If I had a unit waiting to come on the board and I'm allowed to move "exactly as in my movement phase", then I would move onto the board.

Therefore, can Scouts use their Scout move to move onto the table edge before the game begins?

In short, no.

They are not just hanging off the board. They are nowhere. They are not deployed and they are not in reserves.

Anything that is not deployed will arrive Turn 1 exactly as if it had arrived from reserves, not in the Scout move.

puma713 wrote:Can a unit with Scout that is not on the board because of Dawn of War Deployment use a scout move to move onto the board? Now, my immediate reaction is, "Of course not."

Pretty much covers it.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:Question.

Can a unit with Scout that is not on the board because of Dawn of War Deployment use a scout move to move onto the board? Now, my immediate reaction is, "Of course not." But, upon further inspection, I see that the sequence of events in the rulebook goes:

1.) Deploy up to 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

2.) Make any Scout moves.

3.) Start the game.

Now, something like a Deffkopta doesn't have to be declared "in Reserve" in DoW, it is simply off the board waiting to come on. What does a unit that is off the board "just like units from Reserve" (as it states at the bottom of Dawn of War), do when it is its movement phase? It moves onto the board. So, we look at Scouts:

". . .before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase. . ."

If I had a unit waiting to come on the board and I'm allowed to move "exactly as in my movement phase", then I would move onto the board.

Therefore, can Scouts use their Scout move to move onto the table edge before the game begins?

In short, no.

They are not just hanging off the board. They are nowhere. They are not deployed and they are not in reserves.

Anything that is not deployed will arrive Turn 1 exactly as if it had arrived from reserves, not in the Scout move.

I understand. But the reasoning goes:

1.) I have deployed my HQ and my troops.

2.) I can make any scout moves.

Well. . I have scouts, but they're not on the board. My scout rule says I can make a move exactly as I would in my movement phase. What would I do if I was off the board waiting to come on in my movement phase? I move onto the board.

puma713 wrote:I understand. But the reasoning goes:

1.) I have deployed my HQ and my troops.

2.) I can make any scout moves.

Well. . I have scouts, but they're not on the board. My scout rule says I can make a move exactly as I would in my movement phase. What would I do if I was off the board waiting to come on in my movement phase? I move onto the board.

Except you are not off the board waiting to come on. You are nowhere. You are not Deployed, you are not in Reserves, you are not hanging off the board. You are, in effect, floating in a sort of Schrödinger's Cat like state of nothingness and everythingness.

But hurrah! The rules come to the rescue, telling you to place all these units in the first turn as if coming in from reserves!

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:I understand. But the reasoning goes:

1.) I have deployed my HQ and my troops.

2.) I can make any scout moves.

Well. . I have scouts, but they're not on the board. My scout rule says I can make a move exactly as I would in my movement phase. What would I do if I was off the board waiting to come on in my movement phase? I move onto the board.

But hurrah! The rules come to the rescue, telling you to place all these units in the first turn as if coming in from reserves!

Right, but my point is that it tells you to make any scout moves first, before it says anything about deployment or how to place these units. If these units could legally move onto the board, then you wouldn't be placing them anywhere. They'd already be placed. If this rule was first, there would be no question whatsoever.

Gwar! wrote:Except you are not off the board waiting to come on. You are nowhere. You are not Deployed, you are not in Reserves, you are not hanging off the board. You are, in effect, floating in a sort of Schrödinger's Cat like state of nothingness and everythingness.

How does that make any difference? It doesn't say that they are in a "state of nothingness" just as much as it doesn't say they are "off the board waiting to come on." It doesn't say what is going on with them. It doesn't address them at all. A case of Occam's Razor would say, to me, that they are waiting off the board to come on, not that they are "floating in a sort of Schrödinger's Cat like state of nothingness and everythingness".

1. You deploy your HQ and troops. Everything else is declared in reserves

2. Make scout moves. You can't move reserved units onto he board without rolling for them unless there are rules specifically saying you can (scout doesn't- P94 specifically states how scouts work in reserve).

Soup and a roll wrote:1. You deploy your HQ and troops. Everything else is declared in reserves

2. Make scout moves. You can't move reserved units onto he board without rolling for them unless there are rules specifically saying you can (scout doesn't- P94 specifically states how scouts work in reserve).

They are not in reserve. In DoW, you don't have to place any in reserve. When you're told to make any scout moves, your scouts aren't in reserve. Pg. 93:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve. . ."

So, I don't place my Deffkopta in reserve. I am told to make any scout moves (before I am told about units that were not deployed or declared to be in reserve). I have a Scout in my list selection. My scout move tells me to make a move exactly as I would in my movement phase. What would I do in my movement phase of a DoW game where my units were not there and not in reserve? I would move them onto the board.

Nothing says they can move on in the scout move, so they cannot.

it really is that simple. If you don't want to see it, nothing we say will convince you otherwise.

Gwar! wrote:Nothing says they can move on in the scout move, so they cannot.

it really is that simple. If you don't want to see it, nothing we say will convince you otherwise.

No, it's not about "not seeing it". I am not even planning on using this tactic. This is a question that was brought up. I think it has validity, that's why I am asking. You're right, it doesn't say "may move on." But it doesn't have to. It says "make a normal movement exaclty as you would in the movement phase." Then, DoW rules warp that rule. The DoW deployment doesn't place units in reserve and allows you to keep units, in essence, "off the board" or, as you like, "nowhere". So, what do we do with a unit that is allowed to move and is "nowhere"? According to the DoW rules, they move onto the board.

Scouts:

". . .but before the first player begins his first turn, any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase. . ."

DoW:

"Lastly, players make any scout moves. Start the game! Once deployment has finished, the player that chose his deployment zone first starts game Turn 1 with his first player turn."

". . .must enter the game. . . . by moving in from their own table edge, just like units moving in from reserve."

Exactly, just like units entering from reserve.

That means, at the start of turn 1, they magically pop out of nowhere and onto the board edge. At no point are they at the board edge before turn 1.

Gwar! wrote:Exactly, just like units entering from reserve.

That means, at the start of turn 1, they magically pop out of nowhere and onto the board edge. At no point are they at the board edge before turn 1.

Reserves:

"Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

puma713 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Exactly, just like units entering from reserve.

That means, at the start of turn 1, they magically pop out of nowhere and onto the board edge. At no point are they at the board edge before turn 1.

Reserves:

"Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

Yes. And? The scout move is not a previous turn, no matter how you twist it. The fact it ISN'T a previous turn is why Skimmers get no save and vehicles are autohit even if they move in the scout phase.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Exactly, just like units entering from reserve.

That means, at the start of turn 1, they magically pop out of nowhere and onto the board edge. At no point are they at the board edge before turn 1.

Reserves:

"Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."

Yes. And? The scout move is not a previous turn, no matter how you twist it. The fact it ISN'T a previous turn is why Skimmers get no save and vehicles are autohit even if they move in the scout phase.

You just said that "at no point are they at the board edge before turn 1" and Reserves says to treat them as if they are. So, if I treat them as if they are, then the scouts are treated as if they are "off the board". What does an "off the board" unit do in DoW when it is allowed to move and is not in reserve? It enters the game by moving onto the board.

Are scouts allowed to make a free move before the game starts? Yes.

In DoW, do you enter the game by moving onto the table from "off the table"? Yes.

Are you told to make scout moves before you're told what to do with units that are not in reserve and weren't deployed? Yes.

another way to say it is "do the unit get a scout move when they come in from reserves?". No, so how would they come on the board with a scout move.

DaOrkz1977 wrote:another way to say it is "do the unit get a scout move when they come in from reserves?". No, so how would they come on the board with a scout move.

That's probably the best argument against it yet.

Edit: However, scouts say "make a normal move". That's all a scout move is, is a normal move, but taken before the game starts. So, you're saying that I don't get a normal move when coming in from reserve?

DoW allows you to make a normal movement onto the board in turn 1, just like coming in from reserves.

Reserves allow you to make a normal movement from the board edge.

The scout move is a "normal movement".

The DoW rules warp the entire situation.

Also, bad grammar!

Anyway, no, the dawn of war rules do NOT warp the rules, just your interpretation!

puma713 wrote:The DoW rules warp the entire situation.

No, they don't. You're forgetting that the rules are permissive, you're looking through the rulebook and saying to yourself "What does it not say" and you should be asking yourself "What does it say that I am allowed to do?" Fact, the rulebook does not tell you what you can do when a unit is not on the board and is not deploying (from reserves or during deployment phase). So, your scouts are off the board, what does the rulebook say you can do with them? Nothing. Exactly, you are not allowed to do something unless the rulebook tells you that you are allowed to do it. If you don't put them on the board as one of your troops, then they are allowed to come on during turn 1, that is the breadth and width of their allowed action, anything else you can come up with is outside the rulebook.

To be fair, the rules say he can make a scout move and that units move on without needing to be called from reserves. I see exactly where you are coming from puma713. I'd still lean no but it is an interesting question.

Soup and a roll wrote:To be fair, the rules say he can make a scout move and that units move on without needing to be called from reserves. I see exactly where you are coming from puma713. I'd still lean no but it is an interesting question.

Again, you're completely ignoring entire swaths of the rulebook in order to come to this erroneous reading. Deploying is not a move in the sense of "normal movement" thus, when the rulebook says you can have a scout movement, it does not discuss the interaction you are talking about; another way, the rulebook does not talk about moving on the board as a scout movement, these two isolated segments of the rulebook do not interact at all.

Do you honestly think you have just found a loophole no one else has?

While interesting at first, the fact that you are debating against all that is stacked against you is... surprising!

just put them on the edge of the board and then perform the scout move - as long as you comply with the DOW rule of deployment

no more than 1 HQ and 2 TROOP units can be on the board prior to turn 1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and no you cannot perform a scout move from off the board onto the board - as the deployment guidelines state units not deployed on the board or placed in reserve must move onto the board at the begining of turn 1

I think the point at which the argument falls short is the conflating of "done exactly as in my movement phase" with "done exactly as in my first turn". Since scout moves are performed before either player's first turn, then they don't have permission to move on to the table yet.

Of course, it's also important to note that Dawn of War also says "All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the Movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge, just like units moving in from reserve." So, even if one player let the other perform scout moves onto the board, those scouting units would then be forced to go back to the table edge and move in from their table edge (all over again). So, sure, you can move your scouts twice if you really, really want to, but you'll be moving them from the board edge each time.

visavismeyou wrote:

Again, you're completely ignoring entire swaths of the rulebook in order to come to this erroneous reading. Deploying is not a move in the sense of "normal movement" thus, when the rulebook says you can have a scout movement, it does not discuss the interaction you are talking about; another way, the rulebook does not talk about moving on the board as a scout movement, these two isolated segments of the rulebook do not interact at all.

The thought process is Deploy HQ and Troops, decide who's in reserves. Deployment done. RB says you can make scout moves. Troops are allowed to walk onto the board without rolling for reserves. The scouts rule is still in effect when off the table (otherwise you couldn't outflank). Scouts move onto board.

You are correct that scouts doesn't say you can use it to deploy and this, combined with solkan's observations is enough to convince me that you can call this against the rules. While the rule set is permissive, however, this seemed to be one of the more reasonable arguments (hence the number of wrong replies as counter argument) so I stand by my statement that this is an interesting question.

EDIT: Urgh. I wrote 'seamed' instead of 'seemed' and then got quoted. Bad times...

Soup and a roll wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:

Again, you're completely ignoring entire swaths of the rulebook in order to come to this erroneous reading. Deploying is not a move in the sense of "normal movement" thus, when the rulebook says you can have a scout movement, it does not discuss the interaction you are talking about; another way, the rulebook does not talk about moving on the board as a scout movement, these two isolated segments of the rulebook do not interact at all.

The thought process is Deploy HQ and Troops, decide who's in reserves. Deployment done. RB says you can make scout moves. Troops are allowed to walk onto the board without rolling for reserves. The scouts rule is still in effect when off the table (otherwise you couldn't outflank). Scouts move onto board.

You are correct that scouts doesn't say you can use it to deploy and this, combined with solkan's observations is enough to convince me that you can call this against the rules. While the rule set is permissive, however, this seamed to be one of the more reasonable arguments (hence the number of wrong replies as counter argument) so I stand by my statement that this is an interesting question.

Thanks, Soup.

As I said, I don't intend to use this tactic and RAI, I don't believe that you're supposed to as I think the "make all scout moves" refers to the 1 HQ and 2 Troops on the board. But, RAW, I think it has something. Not really going to continue the debate because it would be me sort of playing Devil's Advocate, but I think there's something there that could be discussed.

Soup and a roll wrote: Troops are allowed to walk onto the board without rolling for reserves.

That's not quite correct - they can walk on without rolling in the player's first turn. Which is after scout moves.

Why don't we just clear this up simply. The DoW rules state:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deplotyment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge..."

How is entering the game during the scout move entering the game during their first mvoement phase? The scout moves are not their first movement phase we are told that is the point they MUST enter the game. If they had the option to walk on in turn 1 or not you may have had a point (still not due to Gwar!'s reasoning but) however the rules state that you have to enter on turn one not before not after. Case closed.

Gwar is correct, you cannot scout them when they are off the board. A good compromise might be to measure a scout move out on the table they are sitting on next to/behind you and zoom them around a bit so you do not feel like you are wasting that scout move.

This makes me wonder if a unit has scout and is coming on first turn if they can declare to outflank. Would that be legal?

Yes they can declare Outflanking, but only by going into reserve and rolling for reserves as normal.

THis is because Outflank is an option ONLY available when in reserve, and the must-come-on-first-turn in DoW is NOT reserve.