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puma713 wrote:I know you don't respect the INAT (and then turn around and make your own FAQs o.O)

Again with this.

I do respect the INAT, what I don't respect is their habit of calling rules changes clarifications.

And where in the INAT does it say you can use your Scout move to come on in Dawn of War, if I may ask?

Probably already said.

Dawn of War = up to two troops and up to one hq choice. If they have a scout move they get it. If not then you are done.

Scout - Before the 1st turn but after deployment you get a free move.

Pretty black and white.

Puma - except they get to make a "normal move"

It ISNT however the First Turn, therefore they CANNOT move on the board.

Prove that before the first turn is the first turn and you may be onto something. You cant but keep trying.

puma713 wrote:Orion, have you read any of my posts? The must comes -after- the scout move is allowed. I've already outlined everything you've just said and even given a sequence of events that AGREES with your interpretation. I did this many posts ago. I've already conceded that I don't think it works. I'm simply defending the logic at which I reached this conclusion.

Once you properly understand how this interaction works you must admit that you made an error in your logic... Thus you can no longer defend it.

puma713 wrote:
Using the INAT as a guideline. I know you don't respect the INAT (and then turn around and make your own FAQs o.O), but it is considered by more than just me as a good guideline and I will refer to it as such.

I think it's funny how everyone dismisses the INAT completely. I guess I'm the only one using it?

I think the issue people have with bringing up INAT is that this us YMDC, not FAQ makes the call. The tenets for this forum specifically say that the only rules sources are those by GW. So INAT is a good guideline to go by for many, but it isn't something to reference in a rules discussion/debate.

Gwar! wrote:

And where in the INAT does it say you can use your Scout move to come on in Dawn of War, if I may ask?

Thought you were referring to using abilities whilst off the board, not the entire argument. If the INAT said that you could use your scout move to come onto the table, I never would have posted the question in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Puma - except they get to make a "normal move"

How do your units who were not deployed and not left in reserve move onto the board in DoW? They make a "normal move" onto the board in a position that is dictated by the reserves rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

It ISNT however the First Turn, therefore they CANNOT move on the board.

Prove that before the first turn is the first turn and you may be onto something. You cant but keep trying.

I could also say that the more specific 'Scouts' rule overrides the more general 'Dawn of War deployment rules'. The scouts rule tells me that I may make a normal movement exactly as I would in my movement phase. Looking back at the Dawn of War rules, I look to see how a normal unit would come onto the board. A normal unit would wait until the 1st turn, then move on normally, being placed as if they were coming in from reserves. So, with a specific rule that directly addresses when I may make this movement, I make a "normal move" before the first turn (as the Scouts rule allows me to), moving onto the board (because this is how units move onto the board in DoW).

Ihave been looking at this thread for a wile now it sure is funny... reads like this

Yes I can

no you can't

yes I can

no you can't

yes I can

no you can't

I think the "No you can't" argument is a bit stronger the "yes we can seems pretty thin"... I ran it by my game group and they all seemed to think the scout rule is intended for troops with the scout rule, not for moving Scouting troops that are not on the table. That said Puma has a point in that the RAW is not 100% clear on the matter.. I think that the RAI is very clear this is why I have never heard of this rule question coming up...

Orion, have you read any of my posts? The must comes -after- the scout move is allowed. I've already outlined everything you've just said and even given a sequence of events that AGREES with your interpretation. I did this many posts ago. I've already conceded that I don't think it works. I'm simply defending the logic at which I reached this conclusion.

Yes, actually I did read your posts and I know you conceded the point. Here is the issue, must is the key word, but does not hang in a vacuum.

I was pointing out that no matter the logic used it was faulty. It was pointed out to you that it was faulty, and you continue to defend it. Lets look at all the bold words in that sentence again:

All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deplotyment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge..."

So see there is the problem, if it was not deployed, which comes before scout moves, and was not declared to be in reserve in deployment, which comes before scout moves, must come in as described. This is how I was pointing that your logic was flawed. I assumed that you understood the entire sentence before the must and were simply overlooking the must. Shame on me for not explaining better. I knew you agreed but ultimatley how you reached the conclusion was wrong. Which is why I suggested reading everything again. Its real easy to miss a word here or there especially when you think you may have found something huge. Its happened to me before and I am sure it will again.

This has since been pointed out again. But is sort of where the whole issue arises that continued the thread for so long. And yes I am bored as I am sure many others who responded were as well. Its why no one is jumping on your side saying, "Oh dang, you're right, how could we have missed this?"

Orion_44 wrote:

Orion, have you read any of my posts? The must comes -after- the scout move is allowed. I've already outlined everything you've just said and even given a sequence of events that AGREES with your interpretation. I did this many posts ago. I've already conceded that I don't think it works. I'm simply defending the logic at which I reached this conclusion.

So see there is the problem, if it was not deployed, which comes before scout moves, and was not declared to be in reserve in deployment, which comes before scout moves, must come in as described. This is how I was pointing that your logic was flawed. I assumed that you understood the entire sentence before the must and were simply overlooking the must. Shame on me for not explaining better. I knew you agreed but ultimatley how you reached the conclusion was wrong. Which is why I suggested reading everything again. Its real easy to miss a word here or there especially when you think you may have found something huge. Its happened to me before and I am sure it will again.

That's where we disagree. I don't think the sequence of events follows as you're outlining it.

1. Deployment of 1 HQ and 2 Troops (here I declare that my scouts aren't deploying and are not in reserve).

2. Any infiltrators may do so. (I don't have any, so continue)

3. Make any scout moves. (I have scouts, but they're not on the table. I can make a move. What does a move do for you in DoW? Move onto the table.)

4. Begin the Game.

5. Any units that were not deployed (my scouts) and were not declared to be in reserve (my scouts) must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn. (Here's where it breaks. I already have scouts on the table, because I was allowed to put them there before I was told what to do with the rest of the army. Before the MUST that everyone keeps pointing out. They can't very well re-enter the game, so they either stay where they are (as they've already "entered" the game) or they get placed back at the board edge and enter the game).

This is the RAW sequence (barring my parenthetical documentation). The information about deployment and "must enter the game" doesn't become available until after you've already made your scout move. If it was the other way around and told you what to do before it outlined how you began the game, then we'd be in agreement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orion_44 wrote:

And yes I am bored as I am sure many others who responded were as well. Its why no one is jumping on your side saying, "Oh dang, you're right, how could we have missed this?"

I agree about the boredom. And I don't really need anyone to jump on my side about this. Tabletop-wise, I wouldn't use it. Even if everyone agreed with me, I wouldn't use it. I don't think it is RAI. RAI, I think, is that it refers to the 1 HQ and 2 Troops that you've already deployed.

RAW is not as clear, I think, as everyone makes it out to be. That's why the thread continues to drag on.

Well then we have to agree to disagree. I think that if it is one complete sentence there is not room to insert anything else. But thats part of the game too, agreeing to disagree with people.

Seriously Puma do you actually have a rulebook, because this isn't that hard.

"PITCHED BATTLE – Long Table Edges
...
Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves."

"SPEARHEAD – Table Quarters
...
Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves."

"DAWN OF WAR – Table Halves
....
Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, aslong as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table. Lastly, players make any scout moves.
....
..."

ChrisCP wrote:Seriously Puma do you actually have a rulebook, because this isn't that hard.

"PITCHED BATTLE – Long Table Edges
...
Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves."

"SPEARHEAD – Table Quarters
...
Deploy any infiltrators and make any scout moves."

"DAWN OF WAR – Table Halves
....
Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, aslong as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table. Lastly, players make any scout moves.
....
..."

And what did you just add to the conversation?

but the scout move allows you to move like making a normal move

DOW states that the units not deployed and not in reserve move on from there own board edge just like arriving from reserve

arriving from reserve does not = normal move

scouting onto the board not allowed

Locking at OP's request.