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FlingitNow wrote:Why don't we just clear this up simply. The DoW rules state:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deplotyment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge..."

How is entering the game during the scout move entering the game during their first mvoement phase? The scout moves are not their first movement phase we are told that is the point they MUST enter the game. If they had the option to walk on in turn 1 or not you may have had a point (still not due to Gwar!'s reasoning but) however the rules state that you have to enter on turn one not before not after. Case closed.

QFT

Must is key and is a mission rule.

Remember to always check the rule book for what it says you must do and things like this can be answered very easily. And as was pointed out, this exploit would have been used ad naseum if it existed. Since many people read the rule book regularly on this forum to answer these kinds of questions a good rule of thumb is to reread the entire thing when you think you have found some huge overlooked loop hole.

But my question is that according to what people have said here, they are moving on the board turn 1 as if they were coming from reserves. If that is true, does that text allow outflanking.

It would seem odd that if you had an elite, fast or heavy choice with scout/infiltrate that they could never benefit from it in a DoW.

They can benefit from it - you put them into reserve and use outflanking as normal.

The units that enter on turn one are the ones that you didn't deploy and didn't reserve.

Ah true, that was me not thinking.

Soup and a roll wrote:The thought process is Deploy HQ and Troops, decide who's in reserves. Deployment done. RB says you can make scout moves.

it is vital to ask the question: "When?". More fully, when does the BRB say you can make scout moves? By the time you're trying to "Scout move onto the table" that time has passed.

Soup and a roll wrote:Troops are allowed to walk onto the board without rolling for reserves. The scouts rule is still in effect when off the table (otherwise you couldn't outflank). Scouts move onto board.

The scouts rule is still in effect, however, the time which the rules allow you to use the scout movement has passed. Finally, the fact that you can still outflank is completely irrelevant; the rulebook says that units that have the scout USR may outflank, this does not mean that they can continue to scout move, again, permissive, you're allowed to scout move at a specific time and no other time.

Orion_44 wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:Why don't we just clear this up simply. The DoW rules state:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deplotyment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge..."

How is entering the game during the scout move entering the game during their first mvoement phase? The scout moves are not their first movement phase we are told that is the point they MUST enter the game. If they had the option to walk on in turn 1 or not you may have had a point (still not due to Gwar!'s reasoning but) however the rules state that you have to enter on turn one not before not after. Case closed.

QFT

Must is key and is a mission rule.

Remember to always check the rule book for what it says you must do and things like this can be answered very easily. And as was pointed out, this exploit would have been used ad naseum if it existed. Since many people read the rule book regularly on this forum to answer these kinds of questions a good rule of thumb is to reread the entire thing when you think you have found some huge overlooked loop hole.

I did and I do. Otherwise, these things wouldn't be found or discussed.

And, as to FlingItNow's point - the part where it says "Make any scout moves" happens before it tells you that they must move onto the board. . .etc., etc. The sequence of events goes:

1. Deploy HQ and Troops.

2. Make Any Scout Moves.

3. Start the game!

Then the deployment of other units are addressed (in Fling's quote). Furthermore, FlingItNow addresses the fact that it must be their first movement phase, but the Scout Rule makes mention that this happens before the first turn begins, as if to say, "Before the first movement phase." The specific rule of Scouts overrides the general rule of DoW. But, as I said, I'm through with the topic, though I see others are still commenting. It's not a tactic I'll be employing, but I still think it merited dicussion, otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up.


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visavismeyou wrote:

Soup and a roll wrote:The thought process is Deploy HQ and Troops, decide who's in reserves. Deployment done. RB says you can make scout moves.

it is vital to ask the question: "When?". More fully, when does the BRB say you can make scout moves? By the time you're trying to "Scout move onto the table" that time has passed.

Right after deploying your HQ and Troops. Before the game begins and before other units are even mentioned. Again, the original reasoning went:

puma713 wrote:

1.) I have deployed my HQ and my troops.

2.) I can make any scout moves.

Well. . I have scouts, but they're not on the board. My scout rule says I can make a move exactly as I would in my movement phase. What would I do if I was off the board in a DoW setup, waiting to come on in my movement phase? I would move onto the board.

FlingitNow wrote:Why don't we just clear this up simply. The DoW rules state:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deplotyment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge..."

I think this statement CLEARLY states the answer. They are not deployed Scouts so they cant use the scout move and they don't even enter the game until AFTER scout moves are even done. There is no way they can enter during the Scout move, its just not in the cards bud.

The first player turn takes place after the Scout move. That is RAW, i don't see how you can disagree with this.

Also, at no point in the mission rules or the BRR does it say scout may enter the table during the scout move. If it does, please reference the page.

tyjet3 wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:Why don't we just clear this up simply. The DoW rules state:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deplotyment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge..."

I think this statement CLEARLY states the answer. They are not deployed Scouts so they cant use the scout move and they don't even enter the game until AFTER scout moves are even done. There is no way they can enter during the Scout move, its just not in the cards bud.

The first player turn takes place after the Scout move. That is RAW, i don't see how you can disagree with this.

I guess you ignored the part about the DoW rules stating that you "make any scout moves" before your above quote.

Again, for the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to make this work. I brought it up for discussion. Apparently only one or two people can even FATHOM something like this (as if it is like taking a 40K rulebook and lighting it on fire).

Of course it say "make scout move"! Several troop choices have the scout rule so its not a crazy thing to be stated for a DoW. It is simply saying that scouts that are deployed get to do their scout move. You have already stated that only HQ and 2 troops are deployed so if any of them have the scout rule, they get their move. And then, as stated before:

All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge.

No where does the rule say Scouts can come in from reserves during the scout move. Its simply not there.


You may not be trying to make this work but you keep ignoring our statements that straight up state the correct order of things.

1. Deploy HQ and 2 Troops

2. Make Scout moves (this applies to the currently deployed troops and/or HQ with Scout rule)

3. Beginning of the first movement phase, move all not deployed and not declared reserves on to the table edge. <-- This is where your guys come in.

4. Begin Game


This is the order. RAW. Its doesn't say anything about changing this order.

tyjet3 wrote:


You may not be trying to make this work but you keep ignoring our statements that straight up state the correct order of things.

1. Deploy HQ and 2 Troops

2. Make Scout moves (this applies to the currently deployed troops and/or HQ with Scout rule)

Can you point out where it says the part in parenthesis? Since it's RAW and all. I can't seem to find it. And it says make ANY scout moves, if you want to be particular.

tyjet3 wrote:

3. Beginning of the first movement phase, move all not deployed and not declared reserves on to the table edge. <-- This is where your guys come in.

4. Begin Game


This is the order. RAW. Its doesn't say anything about changing this order.

Really? This is the order by RAW? Because in my book you have 3. and 4. backwards.

If you're going to be demeaning, and try to use RAW to do it, the least you could do is get it right.

Here is the RAW order:

1. Deploy up to 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

2. Scout.

3. Start the game.

4. If you weren't deployed and weren't in reserve, you come onto the table edge in your first movement phase.

That is RAW.

Seems like we're both ignoring what the other is saying. Since the above is RAW, my logic followed:

1. I am allowed to make ANY scout moves.

2. I have scouts, but they're at the edge of the table. I am allowed to make a free movement exactly as I would in the movement phase.

3. What would I do if I am allowed to make a movement exactly as I would in a movement phase while I'm off the board in DoW? I would move onto the board, thereby entering the game.

For God's sake, I'm not even defending the tactic, but the logic from which I reached this interpretation.

puma713 wrote:
2. I have scouts, but they're at the edge of the table. I am allowed to make a free movement exactly as I would in the movement phase.

You are allowed to make a free normal movement exactly like you would in the movement phase. Is moving onto the table how you normally move?

thebetter1 wrote:

puma713 wrote:
2. I have scouts, but they're at the edge of the table. I am allowed to make a free movement exactly as I would in the movement phase.

You are allowed to make a free normal movement exactly like you would in the movement phase. Is moving onto the table how you normally move?

In DoW, yes. Doesn't your entire army (barring reserves) make a "normal movement" onto the table in that scenario?

puma713 wrote:

1. Deploy up to 1 HQ and 2 Troops.

2. Scout.

3. Start the game.

4. If you weren't deployed and weren't in reserve, you come onto the table edge in your first movement phase.

That is RAW.

I agree, I typed incorrectly there. This part of your post is correct.

puma713 wrote:

Can you point out where it says the part in parenthesis? Since it's RAW and all. I can't seem to find it. And it says make ANY scout moves, if you want to be particular.

It is assumed since the Scout move cant be done any other way but for the ones on the table and deployed. More about that below.

puma713 wrote:
1. I am allowed to make ANY scout moves.

2. I have scouts, but they're at the edge of the table. I am allowed to make a free movement exactly as I would in the movement phase.

3. What would I do if I am allowed to make a movement exactly as I would in a movement phase while I'm off the board in DoW? I would move onto the board, thereby entering the game.

Where does it say these particular Scouts are at the table edge? If you are referring to Reserves, then yes they are, but...

All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge.

Are the scouts you are referring to Reserves? If they are not, they "must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn." If they are Reserves, then they must be rolled for and therefore do not get the bonus scout move after deployment anyways and are assumed at the edge of the table when coming on to the board.

There is no reason to think of this any differently. There is nothing contradicting it.

After looking at the full sentence.

All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge.

@puma713 The units that aren't in reserves and were not deployed are not part of the game, and therefore cannot scout, because they don't become part of the game until the controlling players first turn's movement phase.

tyjet3 wrote:There is no reason to think of this any differently. There is nothing contradicting it.

I think your argument is a bit clouded and many of your points are explained on the first page.

In my opinion, the only thing contradicting this by RAW is that, while scout allows you to make a normal move which in the case of DOW lets you move onto the table the USR 'scout' does not specifically allow you to use it to deploy and so become exempt from the sentence that sbeasley above (and many others) have quoted.

EDIT: Now that I think about the whole 'rules for deployment' business is fractious as it is so we should probably all carry on arguing. I'd also like to agree that there is a fair bit of vitriol aimed at posters who are trying to have constructive debate on a forum about differing interpretation.

Soup and a roll wrote:

tyjet3 wrote:There is no reason to think of this any differently. There is nothing contradicting it.

I think your argument is a bit clouded and many of your points are explained on the first page.

In my opinion, the only thing contradicting this by RAW is that, while scout allows you to make a normal move which in the case of DOW lets you move onto the table the USR 'scout' does not specifically allow you to use it to deploy and so become exempt from the sentence that sbeasley above (and many others) have quoted.

I agree that this is the best argument. This means that, by RAW it would go something like:

1. HQ and Troops.

2. Scout move onto the table.

3. Start the game.

4. The scouts that just moved on weren't "deployed" (they moved) and weren't "in reserve", so they must move onto the table edge again.

This is one of the reasons that I have already conceded the point and have just been defending how I got to this conclusion. That and no one seems to be reading anything I'm posting.

And, tyjet, the rules for reserves say that the units are at table's edge. The rules for DoW say that when units enter game via their movement, they do so "as if coming in from reserves". And if you're going to defend RAW, you can't say anything is "assumed". That gets you into a lot of trouble.

Actually they only say to TREAT them as if they are at the edge, and you only get to do this *at the point they move on* - not before.

So you still couldnt scout move them onto the table, as until they get their chance to "move on as if coming from reserves" they arent anywhere - you cannot state they are at the edge of the table.

So you have 2 issues blocking you:

1) the units are not "treated" as if they are at the edge at the table when you come to the "Scout moves" part of deployment, meaning you have nowhere to measure the start of the move from; and

2) Even if you decide they are at the edge of the table you still end up having to come on from the edge at the start of the first turn, which overrides your abiltiy to be on the table prior to that.

And the fact that the units that are coming on first turn are not part of the game, until they beginning of your first turns movement phase. When is the scout move, during deployment. Is that the first turns movement phase. No. Can they scout if they aren't part of the game. No. It's easy.

I agree with puma713's summary.

sbeasley wrote:It's easy

The RAI are easy (although I doubt the designers considered this situation) but the RAW are obviously fairly convoluted. If it were easy the question would not have been raised in the first place.

No, it is easy. They are not on the table at the time of the Scouts move, so they don't get it. That's it. It's really that simple.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually they only say to TREAT them as if they are at the edge, and you only get to do this *at the point they move on* - not before.

Right. And we're contending that the point that they move on is just before the first turn, putting them at the edge.

don_mondo wrote:No, it is easy. They are not on the table at the time of the Scouts move, so they don't get it. That's it. It's really that simple.

RB.94B.01 – Q: Do special rules for models in Reserve still affect the game? Are models in Reserve vulnerable to special rules that affect all models?

A: Models off the table have no effect on the game unless a rule specifies otherwise [clarification]. Conversely, models off the table are not affected by any rule unless specified that it affects models off the table [clarification].

Note: abilities used before the start of the game (i.e. during deployment, etc) may always be used regardless of whether the model is on the table or not.

Don't pay attention to the "Reserves" part (since we're not talking about reserves), but the note that follows. That includes Scout moves.

puma713 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually they only say to TREAT them as if they are at the edge, and you only get to do this *at the point they move on* - not before.

Right. And we're contending that the point that they move on is just before the first turn, putting them at the edge.

don_mondo wrote:No, it is easy. They are not on the table at the time of the Scouts move, so they don't get it. That's it. It's really that simple.

RB.94B.01 – Q: Do special rules for models in Reserve still affect the game? Are models in Reserve vulnerable to special rules that affect all models?
A: Models off the table have no effect on the game unless a rule specifies otherwise [clarification]. Conversely, models off the table are not affected by any rule unless specified that it affects models off the table [clarification].
Note: abilities used before the start of the game (i.e. during deployment, etc) may always be used regardless of whether the model is on the table or not.

Don't pay attention to the "Reserves" part (since we're not talking about reserves), but the note that follows. That includes Scout moves.

But where does it say they are at the edge of the table? They could be halfway around the world, and they can make their scout moves. Also, this isn't from the GW FAQ.

Klawz wrote:But where does it say they are at the edge of the table? They could be halfway around the world, and they can make their scout moves. Also, this isn't from the GW FAQ.

*sigh* Under the reserves rule. And then Dawn of War says units enter the game by moving on "as if coming in from reserves." And I realize it isn't from the GW FAQ, but the INAT is a good guideline of how rules are generally interpreted and is often used in the tournament scene (at least around here), including in one tournament that is GW sanctioned.

puma713 wrote:

Klawz wrote:But where does it say they are at the edge of the table? They could be halfway around the world, and they can make their scout moves. Also, this isn't from the GW FAQ.

*sigh* Under the reserves rule. And then Dawn of War says units enter the game by moving on "as if coming in from reserves." And I realize it isn't from the GW FAQ, but the INAT is a good guideline of how rules are generally interpreted and is often used in the tournament scene (at least around here), including in one tournament that is GW sanctioned.

Are units that are DSing at the table edge? And INAT isn't an official source of rules.

puma - wrong, your contention is false.

"just before" the first turn you are NOWHERE. Your position has NOT been defined.

*at the start* of the first turn you are now at the edge.

Umm yeah, can't argue RaW and quote an unofficial faq.

Anyway, when you quoted me earlier and continued you still can't get past the Must that is underlined in previous posts.

Units that weren't deployed and weren't put in reserves must move on from their table edge. If they have already moved on the board they could not deploy from the table edge using any of the movement rules provided in the game. If you can't make a move that is legal or exists in the game you are not playing Warhammer 40k.

You can ignore the must, and continue arguing, but if you read the must the first time that should have answered the question. They must move on from that board edge at the start of the players first turn. They cannot do that if on the board already.

nosferatu1001 wrote:puma - wrong, your contention is false.

"just before" the first turn you are NOWHERE. Your position has NOT been defined.

*at the start* of the first turn you are now at the edge.

The position wasn't even a part of the argument at first, Nos. I don't think you "need" to be at the edge. Again:

1. Deploy HQ and Troops.

2. Make Scout moves.

I have scouts in my list. They are nowhere, not even on the board, not on the board edge. They're still in my case. But I have scouts and I'm allowed to use their ability whilst they're off the table. What is their ability? To make a "normal movement" exactly as they would in their movement phase. What would I do in DoW, in my movement phase, to a unit that is nowhere, that hasn't been deployed and is not in reserves? I would enter the game by moving them onto the field.

3. Begin the game.

I guess we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I've said I'm not intending on using this tactic and RAI, I don't think it was meant to be employed this way. But I think it is conversation-worthy RAW. People aren't arguing that. They're arguing the point as if to convince me that I'm wrong, which they won't do. You're not going to agree with me because you don't think it's feasible. I don't think its feasible either, but I'm not going to agree with you because we're talking about two separate things. I'm defending the logic at which I ended up at this conclusion. There's no arguing that. That's a fact. That's what I've been defending. I could care less about the tactic, honestly.

puma713 wrote:[But I have scouts and I'm allowed to use their ability whilst they're off the table.

Where does it say you can use it if they are off the table?

Orion_44 wrote:Umm yeah, can't argue RaW and quote an unofficial faq.

Anyway, when you quoted me earlier and continued you still can't get past the Must that is underlined in previous posts.

Units that weren't deployed and weren't put in reserves must move on from their table edge. If they have already moved on the board they could not deploy from the table edge using any of the movement rules provided in the game. If you can't make a move that is legal or exists in the game you are not playing Warhammer 40k.

You can ignore the must, and continue arguing, but if you read the must the first time that should have answered the question. They must move on from that board edge at the start of the players first turn. They cannot do that if on the board already.

Orion, have you read any of my posts? The must comes -after- the scout move is allowed. I've already outlined everything you've just said and even given a sequence of events that AGREES with your interpretation. I did this many posts ago. I've already conceded that I don't think it works. I'm simply defending the logic at which I reached this conclusion.


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Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:But I have scouts and I'm allowed to use their ability whilst they're off the table.

Where does it say you can use it if they are off the table?

Using the INAT as a guideline. I know you don't respect the INAT (and then turn around and make your own FAQs o.O), but it is considered by more than just me as a good guideline and I will refer to it as such.

I think it's funny how everyone dismisses the INAT completely. I guess I'm the only one using it?

puma713 wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:

Soup and a roll wrote:The thought process is Deploy HQ and Troops, decide who's in reserves. Deployment done. RB says you can make scout moves.

it is vital to ask the question: "When?". More fully, when does the BRB say you can make scout moves? By the time you're trying to "Scout move onto the table" that time has passed.

Right after deploying your HQ and Troops. Before the game begins and before other units are even mentioned. Again, the original reasoning went:

Again that is the point, the next time you're able to do anything with units that are not on the table is after scout movement is allowed, thus, when? Oops! too late. that is why the point of it being a permissive rulebook is so important to understanding this interaction.