Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, a store in my area hosted 'Ard Boyz last year and charged folks entry under the guise of a "donation", yet it was mandatory for entry. A lot of folks were upset and e-mailed Games Workshop about this, as it seemed a bit shady to do it for that specific event. A guarantee was issued that said store would not again host Semi-Finals, yet it did again this year and also charged!

What I am curious about is, what does Dakka think? Was it wrong for them to charge? Was it wrong for GW to break their promise? Should this result in more action or is it just a lot of petty griping?

Thoughts?

Hmm.... would this store happen to be named for a short, furry-footed fantasy race?

I played there last year, and that was kind of a surprise, but the space was perfect for their use, and the organization (a pet rescue, if memory serves) seemed a decent one to donate to.

I do think it should have been a bit more on the optional side, as "donating" was a bit aggressively presented... but, that aside, everything else ran smoothly there last year.

If it is an official GW event the rules laid down by GW should be in effect.

If GW mandate no payment it is the choice of the indie store whether they want to host a GW event.

I don't know what the rules are concerning Ard Boys. It seems from your commentary that either they are not clear, or they are not being enforced.

I think it is fine as a general principle for a store to charge for an event. It costs them money to put on. I think it is better to charge a set fee instead of panhandling for donations.

kartofelkopf wrote:Hmm.... would this store happen to be named for a short, furry-footed fantasy race?

I played there last year, and that was kind of a surprise, but the space was perfect for their use, and the organization (a pet rescue, if memory serves) seemed a decent one to donate to.

I do think it should have been a bit more on the optional side, as "donating" was a bit aggressively presented... but, that aside, everything else ran smoothly there last year.

Yes, that is the store, actually. It wasn't really a donation, from what I heard, but more of a fee they didn't want to call a fee. That play space costs them money and they charge for it when they rent it out. It being a Games Workshop event meant to be free for anyone and everyone, that a fee was enforced was a bit crazy, to me.

On a side note, I heard nothing but talk of "shady" activity for this year. I won't be attending anything that shop does ever, especially when I have a shop in town that is much, much better. Open 6 days a week with tons of play space, tables, terrain, etc. No fee for 'Ard Boyz, ever. The only drawback is the numbers being a bit lower than desired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:If it is an official GW event the rules laid down by GW should be in effect.

If GW mandate no payment it is the choice of the indie store whether they want to host a GW event.

I don't know what the rules are concerning Ard Boys. It seems from your commentary that either they are not clear, or they are not being enforced.

I think it is fine as a general principle for a store to charge for an event. It costs them money to put on. I think it is better to charge a set fee instead of panhandling for donations.

I am pretty sure GW reimburses the shop for any prizes, etc. Otherwise, it is basically a free event for the store. GW advertises and the stores make a lot of money in the months leading up to it as people tool up their armies. I think "donations" such as this one shop is enforcing are a bit over the top for this specific event.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

On a side note, I heard nothing but talk of "shady" activity for this year. I won't be attending anything that shop does ever, especially when I have a shop in town that is much, much better. Open 6 days a week with tons of play space, tables, terrain, etc. No fee for 'Ard Boyz, ever. The only drawback is the numbers being a bit lower than desired.

That's really disappointing to hear, as I had a great experience there last year. The proximity to the army base made TFGs seem kind of rare, insofar as the army guys who play there didn't put up with bullying nonsense common to TFG-ism.

As far as the 'donation' goes-- yeah, it was definitely a fee for using the space. I was under the impression they used the space gratis and the donation was a way to ensure they got to use it again in the future, but the point stands-- 'ard boyz is supposed to be a free event, and requiring a donation makes the donation a fee, plain and simple.

The Hobbit Hobby in Fayetteville...

I remember the donation from last year. *laughing* This year I drove 7 hours down to Jacksonville to play in semi-finals since I'm moving there anyway (on Thursday!).

People in that local area really should hold the GW reps feet to the fire on this one.

That store was using a GW event to generate an income without GW's permission to do so. At the very least, I would assume that GW would want all the proceeds to come to them. I mean, saying you're hosting an 'Ard Boys event, which is advertised as being free, and then charging for it, is (to me) not really any different than any other sort of IP infringement.

Thats ridiculous, and you should call gw and demand they reimburse you and never host events again there (and actually do it this time ...)

How much was the fee/donation/extortion?

I guess I wouldn't care that much, by the time I got to the store and was ready to play I'm not going to walk away because of some money.

And not to defend the store (who still violated the rules), but the profit generating potential of tournaments is pretty arguable, 'ard boys doubly so.

The space that is used to game there is not owned by the Hobbit. They worked a deal with the owner/renter of the bingo hall where there is open gaming held every Saturday there. That donation is done every Saturday for space to game. They didn't charge for the tourney, it's for the space to utilize. Every person who games there has to pay for it. It goes for any game, not just the Ard Boyz (Flames of War, D&D, Warhammer Fantasy being the other popular games). GW can state they don't charge for the tourney, but they can't dictate to store the store can't pay for gaming space. Now, if the shop charged an additional fee on top of the $2 (which is the fee for space) to play in the Ard Boyz, that's another matter. They do charge more than $2 for every other tourney other than the Ard Boyz for prize support. GW provided the prize support for the Ard Boyz, therefore, there is no need to charge folks for that.

Before the pizza shop (Dino's) closed down, the Hobbit worked a deal with them for discounted pizzas on tourney days as it was very convenient.

If you showed up on any other Saturday besides the Ard Boyz, you'd have to pay the same $2 fee to game there. After gaming in the area since 03, they draw the largest RTTs and are one of the very few places that can really accomodate that many folks. The smallest RTT I can remember is 16 and the largest RTT has been 34 at the Hobbit (yes, an RTT, not Ard Boyz) They can accomodate to over 40 players for a tourney (obviously space, but terrain as well).

Basically, the Hobbit did not charge folks to enter the tourney. They charge for the space which is what they do every Saturday to ensure there is gaming space. GW can not dictate to a store that they must eat that cost.

If the Hobbit dropped it (which is possible as they don't make money off of it), there's no one in the area that can accomodate 40+ players for a one day tourney. Be prepared to travel out of state. I'm sure it'll cost more than $2, however.

Sarigar wrote:The space that is used to game there is not owned by the Hobbit. They worked a deal with the owner/renter of the bingo hall where there is open gaming held every Saturday there. That donation is done every Saturday for space to game. They didn't charge for the tourney, it's for the space to utilize. Every person who games there has to pay for it. It goes for any game, not just the Ard Boyz (Flames of War, D&D, Warhammer Fantasy being the other popular games). GW can state they don't charge for the tourney, but they can't dictate to store the store can't pay for gaming space. Now, if the shop charged an additional fee on top of the $2 (which is the fee for space) to play in the Ard Boyz, that's another matter. They do charge more than $2 for every other tourney other than the Ard Boyz for prize support. GW provided the prize support for the Ard Boyz, therefore, there is no need to charge folks for that.

Before the pizza shop (Dino's) closed down, the Hobbit worked a deal with them for discounted pizzas on tourney days as it was very convenient.

If you showed up on any other Saturday besides the Ard Boyz, you'd have to pay the same $2 fee to game there. After gaming in the area since 03, they draw the largest RTTs and are one of the very few places that can really accomodate that many folks. The smallest RTT I can remember is 16 and the largest RTT has been 34 at the Hobbit (yes, an RTT, not Ard Boyz) They can accomodate to over 40 players for a tourney (obviously space, but terrain as well).

Basically, the Hobbit did not charge folks to enter the tourney. They charge for the space which is what they do every Saturday to ensure there is gaming space. GW can not dictate to a store that they must eat that cost.

If the Hobbit dropped it (which is possible as they don't make money off of it), there's no one in the area that can accomodate 40+ players for a one day tourney. Be prepared to travel out of state. I'm sure it'll cost more than $2, however.

$2?

That's 200 pennies....

You could get an STD from a meth addicted ladyboy in Thialand for less than $2, and unlike true love Herpes will be with you for the rest of your life.

$2 does not however have enough purchasing power to buy a single jar of GW paint or a single paintbrush.

Yeah, whenI first read about this, I was thinking of a store in cleveland that charged like ten bucks one year. $2 seems pretty reasonable.

$2.00 isn't a bad deal, if they tell everyone on the phone or by email that this will be the case. If they spring it on you at the door, I don't care if it's a dime, I'll be raising my voice.

they shouldnt have charged, but at least what they DID charge was a donation to a good cause (hopefully)... and who really cares if it was only $2!

I also went there last year, and had no problems with the $2 fee to play. They had a huge space with wall to wall tables and had decent to great scenery on them. I cannot remember sweating my balls off as I did this year either due to good A/C in there. This may also have been effected by it being a couple months later, but still at the time and even now I did not see an issue with a donation/fee so small. Even with the 40 people they had at the event, they only pulled $80 and I can only assume the rental for the day was pretty close to that amount.

All of that on top of the fact that this is done in an animal shelter if I remember correctly, so you are donating to at least a very worthy cause. I understand that it was posted as a "free" tournament, but to go so far as to report the guy to GW over a $2 fee that was used to procure the gaming area? That just reeks of douchebaggery.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:That play space costs them money and they charge for it when they rent it out.

If the store needs to rent space to hold an event, then GW allows them to charge a fee for 'Ardboyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ha, should have read down further.

2$?? That's all they asked for? That's not even the gas to drive across town, or 1/3 of what you'd spend on lunch. Who cares?

2$?

It is a Free Event. Plain and simple. If you do not have enough space to hold a free event then maybe you should not be a Semi location. PLain and simple. The amount of the donation is besides the point. even if it was announced well in advance.

Calling a forced payment a donation is a slap in the face. A donation is not a required thing.

I had some strongly worded comments on this subject until I read the $2 part, then I just started laughing. In principle it's wrong, but $2 is nothing to get worked up over.

For me Principle is always something to get worked up over. Not standing up allows $2, to turn into $5, which turns into $10. Not over night of course, but it can and has happened like that before.

I always buy something from the store when I attend a tournament, to encourage the hosting of such events. $2 is laughable.

jbunny wrote:It is a Free Event. Plain and simple. If you do not have enough space to hold a free event then maybe you should not be a Semi location. PLain and simple. The amount of the donation is besides the point. even if it was announced well in advance.

Calling a forced payment a donation is a slap in the face. A donation is not a required thing.

I kind of agree with the bolded part of the quote above.

If 2 bucks is no big deal then everyone on Dakka please send me 2 dollars...

Now please, I got bills to pay.

It was the 'donation' bit that annoyed me slightly.

Like when those nice Italian gentlemen came to my small business and offered me insurance... they were very pushy salesmen!

Heh, if I showed up after driving hours on end there'd be hell to pay if they made me pay a fee. I can't imagine I'd be in the greatest mood hearing that after such a travel. Especially if GW mandated that there was to be no fee to be charged then I get there and there is one? Ha!

jbunny wrote:For me Principle is always something to get worked up over. Not standing up allows $2, to turn into $5, which turns into $10. Not over night of course, but it can and has happened like that before.

And next you know it, someone's marching into France!

I can see you objecting to them not telling you about it first, in a minor way. Two bucks is still laughable.

But GW's rules for stores are that if they are renting space out to hold the event, they may charge a small fee to cover costs. In this case, I doubt that 80 bucks covers a damn thing. It's just throwing a bone (pun intended) to the animal shelter.

If you want, stand up for your principles by not buying something from the store that day.

But don't expect GW to do something about the situation, since it's something they have allowed for several years. They didn't violate any rules, and I strongly suspect GW has always known about it. There are some stores up my way that charge for 'Ardboyz because they rent out a larger hall.

If you do not have enough space to hold a free event then maybe you should not be a Semi location.

The $2 isn't a big deal but the store should have ate that cost if they wanted to host the tournament. There weren't even any semi final locations in my state.

The amount of money that is "laughable" changes depending on is doing the laughing. When i first got married I worried if my checking account got below $100. Now I worry if it get's below $1000. Trust me, $2 would not have been laughable when I worried if my account was below $100.

jbunny wrote:The amount of money that is "laughable" changes depending on is doing the laughing. When i first got married I worried if my checking account got below $100. Now I worry if it get's below $1000. Trust me, $2 would not have been laughable when I worried if my account was below $100.

In such situations, luxuries such as tournaments (and 40k as a whole) should probably be set aside, in favor of the priorities. Every model in your army probably cost more than $2.

Not true. It's called savings. You budget your money and save for it. It's those small extra cost that that throws one budget out of wack.
But I guess it is ok for them to charge $20 since most people playing is bringing an army that cost at least $600, and if you can't afford the $20 then you should not be playing in Ard Boys with big expensive toys.

Like I said in another thread, I got into the game by buying 1750 points army. I did not make another purchase for over a year and a half. I saved up my money ,and I spent it wisely on something I wanted. It took a while before I could afford another purchase. That did not sop my from playing.

$2, no big deal really.

G