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As a 40k player who's never touched it, do tell me... why?

Aside from the aesthetic, the game is a more focused battle with lower numbers of minis per side. It's got a tighter, more complex rule system that requires more in-depth knowledge to play. You need to know how the elements of your army work together to even have a chance of winning. And in many instances, you need to know how to not allow your opponent to win by using their army's combos.

It's just a smarter game.


That's a start anyway.

I have played 40k for nearly 7 years non stop now and have just started playing warmachine. The game is awesome in a word. Stratagy is much more involved and mistakes are far less forgiving. Another thing that I really like is the speedy releases.

If you are a list builder like I am then you will really like the game because even the book encourages you to build the toughest baddest list you can think of.

Another thing that attracted me to the game were the models. The casts are way better than the GW metals and far easier to prep before painting.

If you have a group around that plays I would say give it a few dry runs, watch a few games, and then make your choice. Some people may not like the difficulty of playing against people that are seasoned in the game but I welcome it =)

1) More tactical depth: Let's be honest here: Warhammer is mostly about who can throw the most dice at the other guy. Warmachine, on the other hand, deals primarily with proper placement of units, judging charge ranges, and bringing the right amount of force to bear on each part of the opponent's list at the right time.

2) The player, not the list: Entangled rather heavily with point #1, Warmachine doesn't care too much about what list you bring. While synergy can be a vital part of many lists, I've seen players bring lists written by their opponents and win tournaments.

3) Faster games: Due to the caster kill win condition in every game (and the typically smaller model count), individual matches tend to be rather shorter than in 40k. I find that the average game only lasts an hour or so. Of course, an awful lot of the locals are used to the Hardcore format, so YMMV.

4) Privateer Listens: Unlike GW's now nonexistent forums, PP answers rules questions in a very timely fashion. They also have a firm commitment to never making any model or army obsolete or unusable, so there's no chance of buying into the equivalent of Squats. Their Press Gangers, while not Infernals, do an excellent job of answering questions on a local level, as well as organizing tournaments and leagues.

5) It's balanced: Let's face it: GW's game balance is a joke. When you have to ban certain models/lists from tournaments, you're doing something wrong. Warmachine, on the other hand, is essentially written from a tournament perspective, and has been heavily playtested to root out virtually all the broken components. That's not to say there aren't some extremely strong combos. However, all armies will have quite a few of those, and a balanced list can typically hold its own against anything you throw at it.

Winning warmachine is determined more by how you use the models you have than what is in your list.

My perception is that Warmachine is so broken, its balanced. Everybody has the opportunity to unleash that monster combo that destroys their opponents army in one go.

I love the "activate one unit, move shoot and charge" turn sequence. It lets me re-allocate force if I have a good result from a unit.

As compared to 40k, where the "all move, all shoot, all charge" results in things being out of position, or overkilling a unit because I might botch the rolls.

in short:

1. no rules without models.
2. made to be competative, where GW games are meant for casual play.
3. PP cares more then GW
4. Good forum base and contact with designers as opposed to GW
5. PP support on events, where GW pulls out of events.
6. Wider army composition

there are some negatives as well, but to me the bonuses outweight them heavily. i have been playing 40k since 1994 and stopped completly a year or so ago, focusing almost soley on Warmachine/Hordes.

studderingdave wrote:in short:

1. no rules without models.

Except if you want the Retribution Cavalry, or wanted to use Fennblades in MkI

2. made to be competative, where GW games are meant for casual play.

Definitely agree

3. PP cares more then GW

They put on a prettier face than GW. Look at the Tier lists and tell me if they care about the players or their wallets

4. Good forum base and contact with designers as opposed to GW

contact I agree with. Their forums are almost as bad as Warseer, IMO

5. PP support on events, where GW pulls out of events.

GW support 'Ardboyz and Adepticon pretty well

6. Wider army composition

Similar to 40k, the best lists get snagged from the net, and multiply. Molik Karn?

Sorry to point-by-point, but PP are not saints, and Warmachine is marketed as a money-maker as much as 40k.
All of the Legends units were better than the stuff before them. So they would sell. Only with the MkII re-alignment were most brought into check.

Gw might support Ardboyz and Adepticon well ... but that is still NE america. Speaking as one of the grunts putting on The Big Waaagh the support for us was a drop in the bucket compared to the money we shell out for it.

I don't know how PP supports its players with tournaments but I am sure it can't be any less. =)

Clay Williams wrote:Gw might support Ardboyz and Adepticon well ... but that is still NE america. Speaking as one of the grunts putting on The Big Waaagh the support for us was a drop in the bucket compared to the money we shell out for it.

I don't know how PP supports its players with tournaments but I am sure it can't be any less. =)

As far as I know, for leagues and tournaments outside of GenCon, the Press-ganger for the shop or event has to purchase the prize pack.
Which currently is just some medals.

I may be completely wrong. But we have a couple Press-gangers who post here who would know more.

At Adepticon, there were random give aways each round of character jacks for the Midnite Madness WM events.
I think the winner of night 2 got a signed Retribution book and an unreleased Alt Mage Hunter Assassin.

I would like to know what the Team Tourney guys got, 40k and WM.

PP is in it for the money, it's a company. If they don't make money, there is no WM/H, plain and simple. That being said they do seem to care more about their customers than GW does.

As to why you should play it, that would be up to you. If you're a fan of the fluff, PP's is very good and actually advances. WM and H are tied together nicely in the fluff and in game terms and it actually feels like playing out parrts of the fluff when you play a game. MK 2 fixed a LOT of the balance issues and streamlined the game nicely and with Hordes MK 2 officially out soon both games are playable against each other again. WM/H are fun, decently well balanced games that reward smart tactics and leave little room for mistakes.

So if any of that and the above posters reasons sound fun to you, give it a try. I play both 40k and WM/H and enjoy both systems for different reasons.

Thanatos73 wrote:So if any of that and the above posters reasons sound fun to you, give it a try. I play both 40k and WM/H and enjoy both systems for different reasons.

+1

I just tried my first game of WM/H (my everblight starter v a friends khador) last week.

In short, I had a blast and can't wait to play again.

I won't go into an anti-GW rant. I had mine in the mid/late nineties and tried switching to Warzone and other systems. Came back to 40k playing the end of 4th ed and now play 5th and enjoy it.

WM is just a different game, well written, and is *very* fun. Like most, you'll probably like both 40k and WM (and any other well made/produced game)

I feel like every time someone mentions GW games in here there is guaranteed to be a group of WH/H players who feel they need to justify their mystifying loyalty to a company who is out to make money and not inherently there to make them happy. PP does not care about you. GW does not care about you. They care about staying afloat and making a profit. If PP thought dumping their hardcore base in order to double their profits they would do so in a heartbeat. If any of you don't think the owners of PP wouldn't trade their places with the board members of GW you all are sadly mistaken.

Seriously, enjoy your game and some of you people need to stop trying to justify your own reasons for playing a game.

If you like PP games, awesome. Just stop mindlessly bashing a company at every possible opportunity. I mean even if you're trying to "hurt" GW you're not doing it. Like it or not but most of their customers and money flow don't know these forums even exist.

tallshortguy wrote:I feel like every time someone mentions GW games in here there is guaranteed to be a group of WH/H players who feel they need to justify their mystifying loyalty to a company who is out to make money and not inherently there to make them happy. PP does not care about you. GW does not care about you. They care about staying afloat and making a profit. If PP thought dumping their hardcore base in order to double their profits they would do so in a heartbeat. If any of you don't think the owners of PP wouldn't trade their places with the board members of GW you all are sadly mistaken.

Given how much 40k players tend to bash the company themselves, I'd say it's hardly out of place to join in.

More seriously, I'm not sure how brand loyalty is a bad thing. If a company puts out a good product, why is it bad to praise them? For instance, BWM puts out great cars. I love my mini. I'm glad I don't drive a Gremlin. Yes, BWM made a profit when they sold the car, and are really probably just looking out for their pocketbooks by having great customer service and a great community. Does the fact that they want to make a profit mean I should put them in the same boat as Goldman-Sachs as a company? Now, like I'll bitch at my dealer if there ends up being a recall for my car, I'll gladly criticise Privateer for any mistakes they make. However, barring one or two small goofs, Privateer has typically been careful enough not to do anything to alienate their customer base, unlike some game companies we can think of *cough*Rackham*cough*.

Also, we have a Tim Burton movie and you don't. Nya.

(warning: everything that follows is conjecture. I have no prior knowledge of anything henceforth described.)
You also have to consider how the game probably started. I very much doubt that a bunch of dudes got together and said "Hey, let's spontaneously cook up a tabletop minis game and make massive profit off it!" No, more likely some guy/group of dudes created the world of Warmachine, made a game out of it, and then decided to start a company and market their new creation. Unlike GW and the Warhammer games, Privateer Press hasn't been around quite as long. As a result I would imagine that much more of the original team of the creators of Warmachine are still involved. And it's also likely that they haven't yet grown as jaded as GW's higher-ups. In much the same way that some music stars care about their fans beyond the fact that they make a profit off of them, who's to say that the guys at PP couldn't possibly care about their fans? Just because they, like GW, are a tabletop miniatures company? And also of note is that, as mentioned above, they have been very careful not to anger their fans. They make a serious effort to keep the game balanced across the board, and they don't completely invalidate entire armies- *coughsquatscoughtraitorguardcoughmixedCSM/daemonscoughnonconventional CSMchapterscough5thEdandNecronscough2ndEdDEcodexcoughETC.* -ugh, I think I need some Ricola...

(Keep in mind, I'm not some PP fanboy. I play 40k and Fantasy too, and I still buy GW's minis. And GW's many failings are no secret to anybody here at Dakka, even if they've never heard of Warmachine before. It's entirely possible to like the games but dislike the company.)

Did a sizeable about of people *really* consider collecting squats?

Henners91 wrote:Did a sizeable about of people *really* consider collecting squats?

No. Its just an easy point to use to get indignant about. I know one guy out of about 20 that played back then and had Squats.

GW's biggest issue is that they became a publicly traded company.
Before that, they were still becoming something like what they are now.
But they still had a large amount of the design studio influencing things.

Give PP another 5-10 years, and a similar trend will appear, as the original creator, and minds behind the game move on.

skrulnik wrote:
Sorry to point-by-point, but PP are not saints, and Warmachine is marketed as a money-maker as much as 40k.
All of the Legends units were better than the stuff before them. So they would sell. Only with the MkII re-alignment were most brought into check.

Crazy talk regarding Legends being better than everything else (My trencher cannons would now like a word with you). My nationals lists last year contained only a few legends models, and at least as many Prime models as Legends models. Nothing in legends replaced the Journeyman, long gunners, storm guard, eiyrss, etc. Even caster wise I ran 2 Prime casters and 2 Apotheosis casters (Siege day 1, pHaley day 2, and eHaley & pStryker day 3).

tallshortguy wrote:IPP does not care about you. GW does not care about you.

Just tell me: which one of the two companies runs an active forum where players can contact the game designers themselves?

Endgame wrote:

skrulnik wrote:
Sorry to point-by-point, but PP are not saints, and Warmachine is marketed as a money-maker as much as 40k.
All of the Legends units were better than the stuff before them. So they would sell. Only with the MkII re-alignment were most brought into check.

Crazy talk regarding Legends being better than everything else (My trencher cannons would now like a word with you). My nationals lists last year contained only a few legends models, and at least as many Prime models as Legends models. Nothing in legends replaced the Journeyman, long gunners, storm guard, eiyrss, etc. Even caster wise I ran 2 Prime casters and 2 Apotheosis casters (Siege day 1, pHaley day 2, and eHaley & pStryker day 3).

And how many Cygnar lists did not have B13? Or Khador and Great Bears?

One bad model does not dis-prove my point. I made a generalization while forgetting something nobody takes.

There is much more that was awesome in Legends than was good, or average.
The character jacks in that book were killer.

What really struck me as interesting while reading the rule book is the way that methods to take advantage of the rules are actually highlighted in the book. An example is how a flame template has to target a model, but it points out that you can simply target a model out of range to get a bunch that are closer to you.

I also am really engaged by the fact that they release all the new army books very quickly in succession, and pre-release beta rules for public testing to break them before they make an official release. Additionally, if an imbalance is noticed, they quickly get on replacing it.

Yes, they are profit-driven, but I believe they think that if they cater to their customers, then they will make more money.

skrulnik wrote:
And how many Cygnar lists did not have B13? Or Khador and Great Bears?

One bad model does not dis-prove my point. I made a generalization while forgetting something nobody takes.

There is much more that was awesome in Legends than was good, or average.
The character jacks in that book were killer.

While only speaking for myself in my run at nationals, out of 6 lists (2 500, 2 750, and 2 1000) The Black 13th were in 4 of them. The Squire and Journeyman were in all 6. Storm Lances were in 4, Trenchers were in 4, Aiyana and Holt were in 6, the Piper was in 6, Anastasia DiBray and Gundrun the Wanderer were in 6. Beyond those models, I don't think I reused a whole lot between lists. Thats a pretty good spread of models between books I think, really only leaving out Apotheosis (Which I used casters from). IMO, there really wasn't classic Codex Creep in WM / Hordes in MKI. We'll see how MKII goes, but I suspect it will stay about the same.

As for the Character Jacks, well, Jacks were terrible in MKI. Outside of the odd defender with Siege, I don't think I used a single jack for about the last 2 years of MKI.

tallshortguy wrote:I feel like every time someone mentions GW games in here there is guaranteed to be a group of WH/H players who feel they need to justify their mystifying loyalty to a company who is out to make money and not inherently there to make them happy. PP does not care about you. GW does not care about you. They care about staying afloat and making a profit. If PP thought dumping their hardcore base in order to double their profits they would do so in a heartbeat. If any of you don't think the owners of PP wouldn't trade their places with the board members of GW you all are sadly mistaken.

Seriously, enjoy your game and some of you people need to stop trying to justify your own reasons for playing a game.

If you like PP games, awesome. Just stop mindlessly bashing a company at every possible opportunity. I mean even if you're trying to "hurt" GW you're not doing it. Like it or not but most of their customers and money flow don't know these forums even exist.

And every time WM/H players say something good about their games, you can guarantee a GW fanboi will come in here and get all unnecessarily defensive.

My take (w/o having collected a WM or Hordes army yet). YMMV.

40k
a bit more models per army
better for casual play
fan feedback not desired
great fluff
models are cutting edge
unnecessarily expensive

WM/H
a bit less models per army
better for competitive play
fan feedback not discouraged
so-so fluff
models are pretty nice
just as damn expensive

They're hugely different games so it's not really a matter of choosing one over the other. The trouble is you often have to chose because of the expense. PP also encourages the illusion that you have to chose because they are very consciously cultivating their identity as a company in contrast to GW. They're after disgruntled 40k players. It seems to me that PP and GW are both great, innovative companies that produce quality products. PP seems to work harder at it because they have to . . . for now. If they do GW-style business in twenty years I won't be disappointed. I'll be happy their lights are still on!

Manchu wrote:My take (w/o having collected a WM or Hordes army yet). YMMV.

40k
a bit more models per army
better for casual play (if you want to think less and shoot more)
fan feedback not desired in any way whatsoever, and your army may be at risk of being retconned... unless you play Ultramarines
great fluff
models are cutting-intensive with mold lines everywhere
unnecessarily expensive

WM/H
a bit less models per army
better for competitive play
fan feedback encouraged
Decent fluff (with a story that actually grows)
models are very nice, and overall have a metric f***ton less mold lines (but their faces aren't always the best...)
Slightly less expensive for a comparatively sized game

They're hugely different games so it's not really a matter of choosing one over the other. The trouble is you often have to choose because of the expense. PP also encourages the illusion that you have to choose because they are very consciously cultivating their identity as a company in contrast to GW. They're after disgruntled 40k players. It seems to me that PP and GW are both great, innovative companies that produce quality products. PP seems to work harder at it because they have to . . . for now. If they do GW-style business in twenty years I won't be disappointed. I'll be happy their lights are still on!

Fixed that for ya.

Henners91 wrote:As a 40k player who's never touched it, do tell me... why?

If your here asking then I would have to assume your curious about the game -or at least non-40k alternatives in general.
I say the best reason to play any game is to have fun so to be blunt, play it to see if its fun to you and after that because it is fun.
If a few small demo games go by and you feel the game isnt for you then at least you broadened your gaming scope a bit, maybe malifaux, FoW, or even warlord are more your thing.
If I had a local game store id try every game they had at least once, even 5ed 40k

Manchu wrote:just as damn expensive

Yup. That whole "its cheaper" thing is a myth. To round out a Warmachine army like you would a 40k or Fow army, you spend just as much.

You don't have to to play, but you will.

skrulnik wrote:

Manchu wrote:just as damn expensive

Yup. That whole "its cheaper" thing is a myth. To round out a Warmachine army like you would a 40k or Fow army, you spend just as much.

You don't have to to play, but you will.

In all fairness if you buy a 35 pt army and play it the cost isn't too bad. However if you want 100pts of models to build 35pt lists it gets quite expensive.
One of the best things I can say for pp is that every model I have ever bought for the game I can still use, the same cannot be said for many models I bought for 40k.

You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

As someone who plays competitive Imperial Guard and Skaven, the cost is hardly close to have even 50 points of competitive WM vs either of those (50 will run you about $400 at most, and you can find product at 80% discount on webstores). I have worked out a really good 35 point Cryx army that will run me only $200 before discounts.

You cannot make a WHFB/40k army for $400 that is competitive.