Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Manchu wrote:You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

Of course it's a fair comparison, I don't care how competitive the model is I can still use it. Many people including myself have bought models to use in 40K armies that are not allowed anymore.

Just to be clear, you're comparing how many points of IG to 35 of Cryx? Also how many models are in that IG army? How many models in the Cryx list? In fact, if you have them, can you just post both lists?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whitekong wrote:

Manchu wrote:You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

Of course it's a fair comparison, I don't care how competitive the model is I can still use it. Many people including myself have bought models to use in 40K armies that are not allowed anymore.

Not to be hostile, but which model? And, in that vein, where are the new Iron Kingdoms books? Or the old ones for that matter? Oh, that's right I have to pay full retail for pdfs.

Manchu wrote:You can use every WM model competitively? Otherwise that's not so fair a comparison.

Yes, actually. Barring the Kossites (who have never been competitive), I honestly can't think of a single model that's not worth taking (depending somewhat on local meta. YMMV).

Also, am I understanding you right in that you're complaining that Privateer is a big meanie because they won't give you their books for free?

The Iron Kingdom books? You mean the out of date RPG that's being republished with a new rules system, and has nothing to do with either Warmachine or Hordes, besides sharing a setting?

Manchu wrote:Not to be hostile, but which model?

I don't know about him, but I've got a couple dozen Alpha Legion cultists gathering dust.

That, or my Lost and the Damned list.

As a 40k player turned WM/H player, here's the reasons that I've made the switch in gaming systems:
$:

Warmachine/Hordes is cheaper. (50 pts WM/H versus 2k pts 40k). I don't know how you can even compare the two. In a 35-50 point list (the most common levels in my experience) you'll have between 15 and 25 models costing around $250-$400 with most army styles/models falling into the range. Most of the models are competitive, which reduces the 'waste' that new players encounter when they buy a model that 'looks cool' only to find out it's garbage on the tabletop.

40k by comparison has a much wider range of startup. You can get into a kitbashed Ork or Space Marine AoBR army for $450 or so at 2k points, but to start a brand new army from scratch using non-starter sets you're looking at $500 or extensive conversion work. To make a fully competitive mech list like IG you're looking at $700+ in addition to extensive conversion work for models that don't exist.

Game Design:

Warmachine is designed for competitive gaming. Every single rules dispute has been solvable within the main rulebook, with just a minute or two of research. Not at all true for 40k (Doom of Malantai?). In Warmachine, fluff and competitiveness are built into the system. In 40k, they seem to be mutually exclusive.

Warmachine will actually reward fluff lists with tangible, in-game benefits for building a list within certain restrictions. This keeps them competitive. Try playing a 40k Thousand Sons army. Yeah. No.

Intellectual Involvement:
WM/H is far more engaging from a unit combination and a punch-counterpunch standpoint. Certain aspects of 40k are like watching two guys take turns punching each other in the face until one falls down. WM/H is, on average, more like watching a boxing match with combinations thrown, setting up for the bone-crushing knockout. In WM/H, every unit (more or less) can hurt every other unit. In 40k, the guy with the Land Raider is never going to lose to the guy with no anti tank.

I still own/play 40k, and the game systems are distinctly different enough that they're not true substitutes for each other. If you have the opportunity, however, I would definitely try WM/H.

Fearspect wrote:As someone who plays competitive Imperial Guard and Skaven, the cost is hardly close to have even 50 points of competitive WM vs either of those (50 will run you about $400 at most, and you can find product at 80% discount on webstores). I have worked out a really good 35 point Cryx army that will run me only $200 before discounts.

You cannot make a WHFB/40k army for $400 that is competitive.

i agree with your competative quote. its alot cheaper to be competative with warmachine. i always say that WarmaHordes is made to be competative where GW games are made to be Casual.

I wouldn't say that closing gaping in the rules makes a game less casual. Probably even more so, as it keeps people from bickering about how rules interact.

I like that the models and units within a faction represent different flavors for that army.

The Protectorate of Menoth started out with Temple Flameguard, Holy Zealots,
Deliverers, Choir of Menoth and Knights Exemplar. Knights Exemplar weren't just an
upgrade of the Flameguard, they were an entirely different martial tradition within the
confines of the Protectorate. Zealots weren't merely troops armed with holy hand
grenades, they were the citizen minutemen made effective by the presence of priests.

Because of this, armies are very characterful beyond the decision of what weapons
you decided to give each model. A zealot has a hand grenade, period. So his
abilities are based around the fact that he will have that hand grenade. Knights Exemplar
are slower and more elite. Therefore, they have abilities that will make them stronger in
hand to hand combat if you try to pick them off at range.

Anyway, in-faction variety is my favorite part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laughing Man wrote:I wouldn't say that closing gaping in the rules makes a game less casual. Probably even more so, as it keeps people from bickering about how rules interact.

Yup. You don't see very many house rule type of assumptions at events that I've been to.

Tarot wrote:That, or my Lost and the Damned list.

My genestealer cult and LATD concur...

i always say that WarmaHordes is made to be competative where GW games are made to be Casual.

To bad more of the GW player-base hasn't seemed to have figured that out...

Tarot wrote:The Iron Kingdom books? You mean the out of date RPG that's being republished with a new rules system, and has nothing to do with either Warmachine or Hordes, besides sharing a setting?

Out of date because Wizards gave up on 3.5? I think you'd better tell Paizo that d20 is out of date--although I doubt they will care given how much they make off of Pathfinder. And Iron Kingdoms has nothing to do with WM or Hordes? Actually, they share more than a setting. They share a publisher. PP gives up on certain product lines just like GW does. Also, no plans to re-release the Iron Kingdoms product line--which has been out of print for a long while now--have been announced.

Laughing Man wrote:Also, am I understanding you right in that you're complaining that Privateer is a big meanie because they won't give you their books for free?

No, what I'm complaining about is having to pay the price of a hardcover book for a PDF. Now there's a swift kick to the teeth that GW has yet to deliver to their customers.

Laughing Man wrote:I've got a couple dozen Alpha Legion cultists gathering dust.

You bought boxes of Chaos cultists from GW? Could you post pics of the packaging? And you can still field them as traitors from C: DH--which is available FOR FREE on GW's website. I know they're not competitive but then again neither are Kossites, apparently.

Tarot wrote:That, or my Lost and the Damned list.

That book was printed twenty years ago. If PP hasn't phased out some portion of their lines (like metal models, which they once pledge to keep forever because plastics were totally inferior) by 2020, I'll promise to shed a tear for your army. Until then, I think I'll stick to my opinion that PP and GW are both fine businesses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:

studderingdave wrote:i always say that WarmaHordes is made to be competative where GW games are made to be Casual.

To bad more of the GW player-base hasn't seemed to have figured that out...

We definitely agree there. And this despite Jervis constantly telling us so.

Manchu wrote:PP gives up on certain product lines just like GW does. Also, no plans to re-release the Iron Kingdoms product line--which has been out of print for a long while now--have been announced.

Iron Kingdoms Role Play is being relaunched next year as a stand alone game (separate to D&D).

Manchu wrote:No, what I'm complaining about is having to pay the price of a hardcover book for a PDF. Now there's a swift kick to the teeth that GW has yet to deliver to their customers.

Hate to break it to you, but pretty much everyone does that for their eBooks, or close. Catalyst, for instance, only knocks a few bucks off theirs, although WW does about a third to half off.

EDIT: Actually, the hell are you bitching about? DriveThru sells the Privateer stuff at 25-40% off MSRP. Pretty much the exact same eBook discount everyone gives.

You bought boxes of Chaos cultists from GW?

Ayep, these ones, specifically. I can snap some pics of mine if you like, but I'm afraid the packaging got scrapped a while ago. That, and I'd have to go digging through the Bitz Box of the Damned to try to find them, and I'm pretty sure that's a sign of the apocalypse. Also, PP has yet to migrate the Kossites from Khador to Menoth.

That book was printed twenty years ago.

7, actually, if we're talking about the LatD list from the EoT campaign.

George Spiggott wrote:Iron Kingdoms Role Play is being relaunched next year as a stand alone game (separate to D&D).

Can you provide some reliable source for this? PP's website doesn't seem to have it up. I've read "not before 2011" rumors as well as "based on WM Mk2" but never saw the press release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laughing Man wrote:Actually, the hell are you bitching about? DriveThru sells the Privateer stuff at 25-40% off MSRP. Pretty much the exact same eBook discount everyone gives.

Cheers for the update as this was not the case when I was scouring around for the actual books. Doesn't really change the point, however, that PP does give up on product lines same as GW.

Laughing Man wrote:7, actually, if we're talking about the LatD list from the EoT campaign.

Alright, seven years ago GW had been doing business for twenty eight years. We'll see you're still using all your same WM stuff in 2028. In the meantime, products that PP released seven years ago (including an entire line, which was actually the basis of the setting) have already been discontinued.

IIRC it was mentioned in one of those 'PP Insider' updates. It hasn't been announced on their main website yet AFAIK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:Actually, the hell are you bitching about? DriveThru sells the Privateer stuff at 25-40% off MSRP. Pretty much the exact same eBook discount everyone gives.

Cheers for the update as this was not the case when I was scouring around for the actual books. Doesn't really change the point, however, that PP does give up on product lines same as GW.

Laughing Man wrote:7, actually, if we're talking about the LatD list from the EoT campaign.

Alright, seven years ago GW had been doing business for twenty eight years. We'll see you're still using all your same WM stuff in 2028. In the meantime, products that PP released seven years ago (including an entire line, which was actually the basis of the setting) have already been discontinued.

This is all dependant upon PP actually dropping the IKRP line and not re-releasing it next year. If We're discussing lines GW have dropped over the last 28 years we may be some time.

That, and kind of ignores that Privateer releases a lot of new IK content every year in NQ. And that the IKRPG is the ONLY property that one could argue (feebly) that Privateer doesn't support.

George Spiggott wrote:]This is all dependant upon PP actually dropping the IKRP line and not re-releasing it next year.

Not at all. The point is that they used to offer it; now they don't. Just like all the disappointed Squat fans out there, the IKRPG players were screwed over after dropping their cash. And if you think that a (rumored) non-d20 game will sub in for a d20-based game, I'd recommend you talk to some DMs trying to get their groups playing 4E. This kind of thing happens with every company. There's no use pretending that PP is exempt or that GW is the worst.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laughing Man wrote:That, and kind of ignores that Privateer releases a lot of new IK content every year in NQ.

They release what amounts to fan fiction in every issue I've picked up this past year, not really gaming material.

Last year or so, they've released half a dozen side trek adventures, two 20 level classes, in depth histories of several cities and nations, stats for half a dozen or more jacks and beasts... Pretty nice fan fiction there.

I imagine that someday they will have to discontinue something to avoid
SKU overload. But they're aware of the problem of discontinuing rules for
models in a hobby where people amass quantities of models. In a way, GW
tries to keep models viable by not making army books obsolete with edition
changes.

Anyway, Manchu, none of that has happened to Warmachine itself yet. So the
argument still stands that models in Warmachine are still around from the
earliest edition of Warmachine. Saying that the company doesn't have
the 28 years or so of GW is a little silly because it's like trying to catch up
to an older sibling; it's not going to happen until the elder one dies. The question
is does PP's and WM's customer base like the direction the game is headed
enough to see an extended future of supporting the company, and many of us
would say yes.

PS: I don't want GW to die.

I hate being pigeon-holed into the role of PP-hater because that's not what I am. (I have an attempt at a Cygnar list up for comment right now for crying out loud!) But I also hate to see PP buffs (or GW buffs for that matter) throw around their anti-GW baggage to show off what grand old grognards they all are (not pointing fingers at folks in this thread, but we've all seen such things on Dakka at large). Mal, I wasn't saying that PP doesn't have GW's experience I'm saying that it's unfair to say PP is so fantastic because they've kept a merely seven-year-old model line current. That's just not so impressive of an achievement stacked against big bad GW.

The question is does PP's and WM's customer base like the direction the game is headed enough to see an extended future of supporting the company, and many of us would say yes.

I give it a tentative yes as well. That's not the question that I was addressing at all. I just wrote up a comparison between GW and PP that resulted in GW-bashing.

Laughing Man wrote:Last year or so, they've released half a dozen side trek adventures, two 20 level classes, in depth histories of several cities and nations, stats for half a dozen or more jacks and beasts... Pretty nice fan fiction there.

I've been picking them up or at least flipping through them since around January and haven't seen anything more than fan fiction.

Laughing Man wrote:I'm not sure how brand loyalty is a bad thing. If a company puts out a good product, why is it bad to praise them?

I thought this was a great point. Hence why I wrote:

Manchu wrote:It seems to me that PP and GW are both great, innovative companies that produce quality products. PP seems to work harder at it because they have to . . . for now. If they do GW-style business in twenty years I won't be disappointed. I'll be happy their lights are still on!

skrulnik wrote:

Manchu wrote:just as damn expensive

Yup. That whole "its cheaper" thing is a myth. To round out a Warmachine army like you would a 40k or Fow army, you spend just as much.

You don't have to to play, but you will.

Just look for bargains. If you keep it down to 35-50pts, you can build a pretty varied and competitive army for a couple of hundred bucks that will produce several lists.

I could never do that in the 1750-2000pt range in 40k. Never.

Sorry, Manchu. In the light of several companies, I do find a seven year track
record to be impressive.

Just think of:

Rackham
Starship Troopers
Warzone
Chronopia
VOR
Clan War

The list goes on.

Sure, PP's seven years are impressive compared to failures. And there have been an awful lot of amateurish shots in the dark. PP's founders pretty obviously followed GW in many respects and continue to define themselves in comparison and contrast to GW. I'm glad that they've learned from their elder, as you put it. It's made for a company that can actually compete--in an admittedly small way--with GW. PP is impressive in their own right but they've got very little on GW. Without TSR, there would never have been an Iron Kingdoms. Without Iron Kingdoms, there would have never been Privateer Press. But Privateer Press wouldn't even be as important or successful as Paizo (or even around!) without the great example and trailblazing of GW. .

Fearspect wrote:As someone who plays competitive Imperial Guard and Skaven, the cost is hardly close to have even 50 points of competitive WM vs either of those (50 will run you about $400 at most, and you can find product at 80% discount on webstores). I have worked out a really good 35 point Cryx army that will run me only $200 before discounts.

You cannot make a WHFB/40k army for $400 that is competitive.

Where the F*** are you shopping at and how can I get some of that?! The best discount I've found so far is off an eBay Store at about 30%...

Second. It would make breaking into WM and/or Hordes even more tempting.

I'd like to pop in and say I used to play 40k and frequented dakka a lot more because of it. Then I quit, because GW is garbage. Then a friend showed me Warmachine and it's lovely. I got rid of all those 40 hams and never looked back. Although I do still play fantasy but I can't buy anything new for that game, because unlike some in this thread, I definitely hope GW dies after making a series of fatal errors.

Manchu wrote:And there have been an awful lot of amateurish shots in the dark.

Any examples if you please?

See Mal's list above my second to last post.

Miswrote that there, 80% as in 20% off (from the MSRP stated on the PP website).

Nearly any ebay webstore offers this sorts of rates.

I just want to make things clear though: I am just starting into Warmachines and just wanted to state what I found impressive. I will not stop playing WHFB or 40K; I just find this new system impressive and a breath of fresh air.