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Does anyone have an idea of how to deal with T10 Steam Tank?

5x10 unit of skaven slaves for 100 points, tar pit it there the entire game and ignore it

Screaming Bell, Doomwheel & Fell Blade are some of the options open to Skaven. Don't know about the rest of you non-vermin...

Can it be destroyed by WoC nurgle spell "cloying quagmire"?

lomax wrote:Can it be destroyed by WoC nurgle spell "cloying quagmire"?

No because spells without strength value cant target it.

50 LSG + that spell that gives them the s value of the leader ship. Nuff said.

So....300 point Steam Tank vs ~650+150ish points of T3 elves.

That's not terribly reliable, much less given a) the fickleness of magic and b) the uncertainty over whether or not armor values are affected by the "new S" of the unit (which is still wounding on 6's anyways)

If spells without strength value can't target it, what is the point of increasing its thoghness to 10? Is anyone thinks that it is a weak unit of WHFB?

They raised its Toughness to 10 considering that warmachines will be more prevalent and more accurate, in general. Presumably it was to make it more viable, but it's somewhat strange that they would do that to the Steam Tank and neglect so many other units.

Yes... especially considering how scary it was already, imho!

Is it more effective as hammer than war machine?

You can wound it on a 6 regardless now. Just throw mass numbers of shots/attacks at it.

Against armor +1?

The WoC Aethersword would be able to kill it. Maybe not easily, but it ignores armour, so yeah.
It only costs...
URK!!!

Skaven just got rank bonuses to their stubborn? Awesome nice. "I've always wanted a Skaven army."

Empire not getting any nerfs to Mortars is good news for many I guess and bad news for others, and the buffs to Steam Tanks are nice and appropriate too because it didn't gain the thunderstomp etc like every other monster and the steam point system is a weakness (it gets really weak after a few suffered wounds).

Unrelated question: Does Skaven Stubborn now boost leadership during Steadfast? The FAQ was completely unclear, saying it comes after but that it then is added to the unmodified leadership. That changes how effective they are (Ld 10 stubborn >>> Ld 7 Stubborn). I'd definitely say one of those could Tarpit a STank: 50 models meaning that even getting 15 kills a turn with max Steam Points it's at least three turns to break, on average of about eight (assuming 4 points / turn a turn, two hits per point on average) a turn changing to impossible to break and hit another unit that game.


For Empire & O&G (I cannot recall any other armies with this piece of wargear), Runefangs and the Waaagh! Cleava (respectively to Emp and Orcs) can each do good, seeing as they wound automatically with no saves. The pro is that a Savage Orc Warboss w/ the Waaagh! Cleava isn't exactly bad either (5 attacks that auto wound w/ no saves), the con is that it's naked otherwise (only T5 6+ Ward protecting it, 4+ save if mounted) and that both these options are really sucking up a lot of points / require being put in a unit as well / tie up that unit for at least one full turn.

Bretonnia might be able to killing blow it with one of their special vows. If so, that's really their best bet for dropping one: Slap two Bretonnian characters with that vow in one unit, then thrust them at the STank on the basis that with six attacks on average they should get one Killing Blow. Of course, if it's a magic weapon, this is immediately much less effective. Still pricey as well.

Does anyone have an effective idea how to destroy ST?
Or is the best to keep ST busy with cheap units?

Minsc wrote:Unrelated question: Does Skaven Stubborn now boost leadership during Steadfast? The FAQ was completely unclear, saying it comes after but that it then is added to the unmodified leadership. That changes how effective they are (Ld 10 stubborn >>> Ld 7 Stubborn). I'd definitely say one of those could Tarpit a STank: 50 models meaning that even getting 15 kills a turn with max Steam Points it's at least three turns to break, on average of about eight (assuming 4 points / turn a turn, two hits per point on average) a turn changing to impossible to break and hit another unit that game.

It's clear that the ranks are added after steadfast has already kicked in. So, Skaven get the same LD they'd always get, but when they out rank the enemy they are also stubborn. The fact it states ranks are added to the unmodified leadership to me only explains that the 'unmodified LD' is boosted in the end. I can't see any other realistic interpretation except that Skaven are stubborn LD10 in the best scenario on the battlefield, despite what Grotsnot is trying to rules lawyer over at TWF.

Skaven can tarpit the Stank but they can hurt it too. Sure they have weapons that wound it on 4+ automatically and ignore saves, and of course the WLC's/Doomwheels can always roll 10 for strength and possibly cripple it in one shot, but I rather like the idea of 50 Skaven Slaves holding it forever and forcing it to make a few saves each turn.

Therion wrote:

Minsc wrote:Unrelated question: Does Skaven Stubborn now boost leadership during Steadfast? The FAQ was completely unclear, saying it comes after but that it then is added to the unmodified leadership. That changes how effective they are (Ld 10 stubborn >>> Ld 7 Stubborn). I'd definitely say one of those could Tarpit a STank: 50 models meaning that even getting 15 kills a turn with max Steam Points it's at least three turns to break, on average of about eight (assuming 4 points / turn a turn, two hits per point on average) a turn changing to impossible to break and hit another unit that game.

It's clear that the ranks are added after steadfast has already kicked in. So, Skaven get the same LD they'd always get, but when they out rank the enemy they are also stubborn. The fact it states ranks are added to the unmodified leadership to me only explains that the 'unmodified LD' is boosted in the end. I can't see any other realistic interpretation except that Skaven are stubborn LD10 in the best scenario on the battlefield, despite what Grotsnot is trying to rules lawyer over at TWF.

Skaven can tarpit the Stank but they can hurt it too. Sure they have weapons that wound it on 4+ automatically and ignore saves, and of course the WLC's/Doomwheels can always roll 10 for strength and possibly cripple it in one shot, but I rather like the idea of 50 Skaven Slaves holding it forever and forcing it to make a few saves each turn.

Exactly the tank is what? 300 points?

Tarpit the hell out of it and watch as their 300 point unit is stuck on a stubborn block infantry for the entire game.

Point denial is a strategy. You hold up 300 points with 100ish points unit that leaves 2900 points of your guys, vs 2700 of his...

Therion, normally it wouldn't be up for debate, but it matters as it's a break from last edition's rules. Last edition, Ranks were confirmed via FAQ to be completely irrelevant to Stubborn: You had no ranks? You're just as Stubborn as three ranks! This edition, that FAQ makes it painfully unclear. "You add ranks to unmodified leadership" could mean you add it to the leadership that isn't modified, the leadership before Steadfast, the leadership is added on top the Steadfast meaning Ld 7 steadfast with up to Ld10 depending on penalties, and so on.

So is everyone playing 3000 points now? I'm seeing a lot of people analyzing units effectiveness in a 3000 point scenario.

As an empire player, the t10 change effectively helps the steam tank only against cannons and a few high-end monsters or characters. Other than that, the problems (the reasons I won't be taking one) are exactly the same:

1) it has to do its damage the turn it strikes, or it will never do any again.

2) it costs 300 points, meaning that when that 80point unit of zombies charges it and it's done for the game (or after it takes 2 wounds and is likewise done for the game) I am playing a game at 85% strength.

The stank is now useful only against armies with a low model count (elite WoC, brets, possibly daemons on occasion since daemons are not steadfast) but against anybody benefiting from the new steadfast rules, it's simply a very poor investment. nobody panic.

Now, who wants to start the thread about "how to kill the t10 anvil of doom/cauldron of blood/casket of souls?"

The simple strategy is to ignore completely the entire game, and watch it potentially damage itself when it tries to move into position.

The Steam Tank is still what it always was- a points sink for players who don't build effective lists to play as an indefeasible unit against other ineffective list builders. Seriously, with all the artillery that you are capable of fielding in the empire rare section (including the fact that they all use large templates now!!!) the stank is a bigger point sink then before.

That said, it is fun for pick-up just for fun games.

Th steam tank is a signiture piece but i disagree with the comments above that you can just tarpit it with a shovelful of low infantry.

People get this vision that the Steam Tank is so uber it runs off on its own, actually if there is any chance it will get bogged down that is when the accompanying unit gets stuck in and fees it up.

Also the steam tank is best used to deal with enemy elite, this can be sert up easy enough because most opponentswill need to close with an Empire army, if they dont shoot them til they do. Use the steam tank to charge threatening and tough units.

Its a cannon with a nasty countercharge ability, not a stand alone uber unit to unleash to be left to run amok on a flank.

They have changed this thing to a chariot.. what ramifications does this have that might help people deal with it?

Correct me if Im wrong, but I seem to recall that in the new edition, chariots' armor saves cannot be modified, which means you can run up to it with a S10 auto-hitting great weapon that causes multiple wounds, and watch it bounce off the tanks 1+ armor save, because your -7 armor value from having S10 means feth all to a chariot in 8th.

If anyone has the new book handy today, I would much appreciate it if you could tell me this is wrong and I am horribly misinformed.

What about the commander? Is he the chariot's sole crew member?

Falconlance wrote:They have changed this thing to a chariot.. what ramifications does this have that might help people deal with it?

Correct me if Im wrong, but I seem to recall that in the new edition, chariots' armor saves cannot be modified, which means you can run up to it with a S10 auto-hitting great weapon that causes multiple wounds, and watch it bounce off the tanks 1+ armor save, because your -7 armor value from having S10 means feth all to a chariot in 8th.

If anyone has the new book handy today, I would much appreciate it if you could tell me this is wrong and I am horribly misinformed.

What about the commander? Is he the chariot's sole crew member?

It doesn't say that under the chariot rules, all it can say is that a chariot has a fixed armor save, taking into account the hardiness of the chariot, the armor worn by the crew, and any barding on the mounts.

I am under the impression, the term fixed was misconstrued by rumors. As far as I can see they can also take advantage of the spell "Glittering Robe", which I am very tempted to start abusing.

Skaven Jezzails work reasonably well, with their -4 to armor saves...

Tomb swarms

Vulcan wrote:Skaven Jezzails work reasonably well, with their -4 to armor saves...

Not very logical, but Poison Wind Globes work even better

When a chariot moves through difficult terrain, it suffers dangerous terrain tests.