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Hey folks! Please see the options below - the manticore has some RAW issues firing.....not sure how it should be played.

Option 1:
You treat it as firing a multiple weapon ordnance barrage, scattering off template like a barrage of multiple weapons (not true RAW)

Option 2:
You treat it as firing d3 ordnance large blast shots and scatter them each independently (not true RAW)

Option 3:
You scatter it once, and hit the scattered-to spot with d3 templates (using ordancne barrage rules for av/cover/etc._) ... (arguably RAW?)

Option 4:
Manticores can't fire without some RAI (tee hee)

Tend to play it as multiple barrages, despite there not being multiple weapons. Seems the closest fit, as it seems to be a MIRV type rocket.

is this storm eagle rocket or deathstrike missile? [both af F'd up name, we]

Eagle rocket, you roll speratly, Deathstrike is D3 blasts? do it like deep strike scatter, they have to stay around the original template.

It's option 1 and 2, depending if you are firing it directly or indirectly.

If firing it indirectly, you use the rules for firing multiple barrages (note: while described in detail in the rulebook there is no diagram).

Firing it directly, you fire it just like any other weapon that uses a blast marker.

Until recently, we'd been playing it as multiple shots and scattering them independently - the reasoning being that Multiple Barrage rules state that "If a unit has more than one barrage weapon, they are fired in a salvo..." Manticores don't have more than barrage weapon, so we resolved the shots seperately.

However, Tempest Launchers use multiple barrage rules despite being a single weapon. That's a specific instance, so we only used multiple barrage rules for Tempest Launchers.
Then the Tyranid FAQ came out, saying that a Harpy's Spore Cysts also use multiple barrage rules, despite being a single weapon.

It seems that the intention is that anything firing multiple blasts or barrages should be using the multiple barrage rules.

Precedent doesn't exist in 40k ... it's not a common law system; that said, in this case, there IS no true RAW for how to fire them.

Going with the precedents of the spore mines and tempest launchers isn't a terrible idea as a result, but mang ... tricky.

Exactly, if you try to apply cross codex faq precedent, then my librarians are safe from all psychic defense inside their shiny metal boxes, ala nids faq setting the precedent multiple times that embarked units cant be measured to or effected..

The closest analog in the rules would seem to be multiple blasts, as multiple ordinance barrage specifically mentions it applys to unit firing more than 1 barrage weapon, which the manti doesn't.

Except blasts doesnt apply to barrage, so you either follow a mechanic which is only missing there being "weapons", or use a mechanic which ignores the entire firing mechanic...

When firing directly, place each template individually as you want then roll for scatter for each one. Targeting the same unit of course with each template.

When firing barrage, place one template, roll for scatter then roll scatter for the other templates, if you get an arrow the template is placed touching the first in the direction that the arrow points, if you get a hit you can place it anyway you want as long as its touching (or overlapping), a previously placed template. Meaning you can place the second and 3rd templates directly on top of the first.

The problem, Kaiser, is that multiple barrage doesn't work by strict RAW since the Manticore is only firing ONE barrage weapon.

To me it would seem to make the most sense to resolve the shots with the multiple barrage rules. The intent with the tank is to make it into a cluster bomb firing artillery platform which saturates an area with fire in the same manner as multiple barrage weapons firing together would. If I remember correctly, the multiple barrage rules say that the multiple barrage weapons are firing at the same time to achieve their clustering, and since the Manticore fluff seems to support that one missile fires up splits apart and comes down all at the same time I would say that they would land with the same multiple barrage grouping.

MVBrandt wrote:Precedent doesn't exist in 40k ... it's not a common law system; that said, in this case, there IS no true RAW for how to fire them.

The FAQ answers give an understanding as to how the game is meant to work. Applying those answers to similar situations is usually a good idea.

kill dem stunties wrote:Exactly, if you try to apply cross codex faq precedent, then my librarians are safe from all psychic defense inside their shiny metal boxes, ala nids faq setting the precedent multiple times that embarked units cant be measured to or effected..

Which other armies use Shadow in the Warp? That's a specific rule to the Tyranids, which specifically does not affect embarked psykers. Psychic Hoods remain in their potentially usable place.

Ignoring FAQ answers with a statement that they only affect the army in question leads to further problems; for example, we know how victory points work with combat squads for Codex Space Marines from their FAQ. Other Marine chapters have no such FAQ answer. Does that mean that we don't know how victory points for combat squads work for them? From the same FAQ, Codex marine Lascannon/Plasma Gun Razorbacks have two weapons. We don't know if they are seperate weapons on a Blood Angel Razorback. Speaking of Blood Angels, we know that Baal Predators get their Flat Out Scout move. If that FAQ only applies to them, do other Fast Scouts get to move Flat Out? Do other Scouts get to use smoke launchers like the Baal Predator? Do all Monstorus Creatures that move as Jump Infantry get to Deep Strike, or only the Tyranids?

Every time you fire, roll a D3. It is resolved as a Ordnance Barrage Weapon that Fires D3 Shots. The Multiple Barrage rules are kind of tricky with Barrage Weapons that fire more than once, as it states: "If a unit has more than one barrage weapon, they are all fired together in a salvo."

Because it only has one weapon that fires D3 shots, not D3 weapons that fire One shot, it is NOT resolved as a Multiple Barrage, but resolved as D3 separate Hits, the same way as if it fires Directly. It is D3 Large Blast Templates Each rolled for Separately, just as if it were a Multiple Blast Weapon. (Following the Barrage rules of course, minimum range, cover worked from the hole etc etc.)

The nid faq was clarifying the commonly perceived error that, although you can measure range for an embarked units effects, the opposite is not true, and you cannot range to them, its the obvious conclusion of the ruling.

Which means psychic hoods dont work while embarked.

kaiservonhugal wrote:Every time you fire, roll a D3. It is resolved as a Ordnance Barrage Weapon that Fires D3 Shots. The Multiple Barrage rules are kind of tricky with Barrage Weapons that fire more than once, as it states: "If a unit has more than one barrage weapon, they are all fired together in a salvo."

Because it only has one weapon that fires D3 shots, not D3 weapons that fire One shot, it is NOT resolved as a Multiple Barrage, but resolved as D3 separate Hits, the same way as if it fires Directly. It is D3 Large Blast Templates Each rolled for Separately, just as if it were a Multiple Blast Weapon. (Following the Barrage rules of course, minimum range, cover worked from the hole etc etc.)

I see it slightly differently, the Manticore is firing one shot, not a salvo of D3 shots. That one shot splits in the air and hits D3 times the same way as a salvo of multiple barrage weapons would. I would agree with you that if the tank itself were firing D3 shots it probably should scatter independently, but since its one rocket breaking apart and landing at the same time I would go with the multiple barrage.

Both the Multiple Barrage AND the multiple blasts rules are written based on multiple weapons firing a single blast each. So NEITHER set of rules covers how to handle a single weapon firing multiple blasts!

Multiple Blast:
"If a unit is firing more than one blast weapon"
Multiple Barrage:
"If a unit has more than one barrage weapon"

So the difference is in the mode of fire, direct or barrage. So resolve it based on mode of fire. Easy, ain't it?


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kill dem stunties wrote:Exactly, if you try to apply cross codex faq precedent, then my librarians are safe from all psychic defense inside their shiny metal boxes, ala nids faq setting the precedent multiple times that embarked units cant be measured to or effected..

The closest analog in the rules would seem to be multiple blasts, as multiple ordinance barrage specifically mentions it applys to unit firing more than 1 barrage weapon, which the manti doesn't.

Course, the multiple blast rules also specifically mention a unit firing more than one blast weapon............................. So they don't apply either.

don_mondo wrote:Both the Multiple Barrage AND the multiple blasts rules are written based on multiple weapons firing a single blast each. So NEITHER set of rules covers how to handle a single weapon firing multiple blasts!

But as was already mentioned, GW have shown that they consider multiple weapons firing and one weapon firing multiple times to follow the same rules. Good enough for me.

I agree. That statement was for those that insist on barrage weapons being resolved as direct fire weapons for some reason, usually because they think that the direct fire blast rules cover multiple shots from one weapon.

If it's barrage, use the barrage rules, if it's direct, use the direct rules.

out of curiosity does the rules for firing multiple barrage weapons apply to say a squad of basilisks?

If you have a unit that consists of multiple vehicles with Barrage weapons, then yes, the multiple barrage rules would apply just as they would for any other unit.

Ennkay wrote:out of curiosity does the rules for firing multiple barrage weapons apply to say a squad of basilisks?

If two or more of them fire barrage, then yes, they would apply to those that fired using barrage.

It all depends on how I'm firing it. If it's directly, then it's option 2, if it's indirectly, then it's option 1. Honestly, the other posibilities never even came to mind.

The manticore cannot fire directly it only fires barrage


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Only the earthshaker can fire direct as stated in it's rules to allow it to fire within it's minimum range..

At the end of the day you will be resolving the effects of multiple barrages


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Anyway firing directly or indirectly only effects how cover is determined not the type of weapon/attack which in this case is barrage.

Actually all weapons can fire "direct" , you have to have a rule saying you cannot....

Really?? thats not the way I read the barrage weapon description (pg. 32)

why does the manticore have a minimum range and the basilisk require a special rule allowing it to fire direct.

Why fire through terrain intead of over it??

There is no benifit of firing direct the exception would be to fire within minimum range - also the modelling of the manticore would prevent direct fire as the rocket have to go up first before coming down

and that still doesn't take away the fact that it is a barrage weapon..

Catachan_Devil wrote:
Anyway firing directly or indirectly only effects how cover is determined not the type of weapon/attack which in this case is barrage.

I can direct fire as long as I haven't fired anything else (except when explicitly told otherwise). Ordinance Barrage can be fired directly per BRB. If you do so, each shot scatters independently and it follows the Ordinance rules. If you haven't moved, you also get the option of firing indirectly using the Ordinance Barrage rules, which follow the same rules (in my mind) as x number of Basilisks or whatever else firing Barrage, i.e. that the d3-1 additional markers scatter relative to the initial shot. It's the one that makes the most sense.


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Catachan_Devil wrote:Really?? thats not the way I read the barrage weapon description (pg. 32)

You are 100% correct. For barrage weapons. Manticore is ORDINANCE barrage, which is on page 58.

daedalus wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:
Anyway firing directly or indirectly only effects how cover is determined not the type of weapon/attack which in this case is barrage.

I can direct fire as long as I haven't fired anything else (except when explicitly told otherwise). Ordinance Barrage can be fired directly per BRB. If you do so, each shot scatters independently and it follows the Ordinance rules. If you haven't moved, you also get the option of firing indirectly using the Ordinance Barrage rules, which follow the same rules (in my mind) as x number of Basilisks or whatever else firing Barrage, i.e. that the d3-1 additional markers scatter relative to the initial shot. It's the one that makes the most sense.


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Catachan_Devil wrote:Really?? thats not the way I read the barrage weapon description (pg. 32)

You are 100% correct. For barrage weapons. Manticore is ORDINANCE barrage, which is on page 58.

yes you are right there - ok within minimum range and firing directly you would not factor in the barrage charateristic and roll each scatter independently.. But then we have a modeling issue as the GW manticore is not really designed for direct fire.


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Actually I take that back.. Checked my manticore and there appears to be enough height on the missle rack to warrant direct fire over the crew compartment

Catachan_Devil wrote:Really?? thats not the way I read the barrage weapon description (pg. 32)

Try page 58, Ordnance Barrage weapons..................

Ok so can anyone summarize all of this clearly?