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Okay, I'm not a carbon nazi or completely adverse to using fossil fuels, but I am keen on reducing waste, recycling and long term sustainability of resources and energy. So when I get a boxed set from GAMES WORKSHOP i get very disappointed by the ridiculous amount of packaging that it comes in. Further to this I cut off all the items off a sprue and weighed the sprue ! The Sprue waste weighed 3 x more than the items on it? How much ridiculous waste.

1. GW could reduce production costs and packaging costs.
2. GW could reduce the amount of resin in their sprues and their raw materials costs would be reduced.
3. They could simplify their packaging.
4. They could look to making their paints more Environmentally friendly.
5. Transport costs could be reduced as boxes and deliveries would be smaller.
6. These reductions could be passed onto the consumer (Very unlikely, I know but we have to push this!)

Most of us in this hobby have high IQ's and we know the current energy and resource consumption cannot be sustained. GW should start to take a lead with this, as it is important, even if it was simple as a Sprue bin so you could return Sprue bits to them to be recycled.

I love this hobby, but would feel a hell of alot better if it wasn't so terribly wasteful. I do tend to buy most of items off Ebay and 2nd hand but thats just me. Your thoughts or opinions on this would be appreciated.

I'm all for recycling as well, but don't plastics degrade every time they are recycled? It this is the case then I wouldn't want my miniatures coming from recycled plastics. I wouldn't mind if they cast each piece individually and got rid of the sprue, or just had small bits of sprue for tiny things.

I think the sprue problem is being addressed, look at the more modern sprues, they are packed with bits. For example, take the IoB sprues, pics of which you can find on GW's website. I can tell you with full confidence, there is a greater part-cm square ratio than older kits such as the HE spearmen. Another example is the new LMBT sprue, compare it to the older vehicle sprue, there is a great economy in it (2 sprues to the 3 a rhino has even though rhinos are slightly smaller)

Next, lets look at their packaging, what is it;

- a cardboard box
- a plastic bag for bases (on models with bases)
- the sprues

That isn't much compared to other things and it is far better for the environment than, say, a generic action figure toy which will have one of those really annoying clear plastic covers on it.

On the topic of reducing how much plastic they use, with these jam packed sprues, less plastic = bad quallity or less pieces. Either way, less people buy them and GW makes less money for doing so.

So, IMO, it isn't as bad as you make out, sure, the older sets that need updating are pretty bad for the environment, but that’s true with everything that old; cars, computers, electronics... I could make a huge list. Sure, if everything was off the sprue, it would be better, but what does that mean, they either A) need someone to cut it off the sprue or B) they need new moulds which cost millions to make. Either way, costs go up. Give it time and the sprue weight will go down.

Edit for spelling, also, did you know that microsoft word dosn't recognise the word ' sprue', interesting.

About 10 years ago the miniatures came in a cardboard flip-top box encased in a cardboard sleeve, so they've cut back a lot when it comes to cardboard usage.^^

Its not a question of comparing them to other products or toys or toy packaging. Its a question of taking a Lead, setting the trend, showing there is another way, innovation not repetition. Its about a Space Marine Razorback Box being about 1/3 too big! Economy's of scale mean this is a big issue. Reducing the amount of Resin does not mean inferior models, reducing the amount of resin in sprues (a sprue is just waste essentially). Half the size of the sprue waste and you could reduce the amount of resin between 40-60% that cannot be ignored by any business. Driving down overhead and raw costs is key, investing in future practices, machinery, new moulds and technology is vital to future success.

Doing the right thing is not always economic, however it will be PR positive and set an agenda that is more in keeping with the ethos of this hobby.

Not saying these are necessarily bad ideas, but...

mwnciboo wrote:1. GW could reduce production costs and packaging costs.

Not sure how that's an environmental consideration. It is something that they constantly work towards, though. The packaging has changed considerably over the years, losing, for example, the extra cardboard sleeve and the foam insert.

2. GW could reduce the amount of resin in their sprues and their raw materials costs would be reduced.

It's not quite as simple as reducing the amount of sprue. While on the end product the sprue is just waste, it's a rather important part of the injection moulding process. Less sprue means the liquid plastic doesn't flow as easily, which results in poorer casts.

Moving to sprue-less moulding (as they have started to do with their bases, for example, although they would need a set-up more like the one Lego uses, which doesn't leave a whopping great injection dimple on the part) would be a more environmentally-friendly option, and would create a lot more work sorting and packing all the individual parts.

There are companies out there that recycle polystyrene. It's been suggested for years that GW should just offer some sort of credit system for returning your old sprue.

Otherwise, you can always take a step in this direction yourself, by recycling your sprue into scenery. Bigger sprue frames can be used as framework for building walls. Oddly shaped or smaller sprues can be cut up for rubble. There were even pictures floating around a short while back from a guy who built a proxy Necron army entirely out of sprue...

I tried chucking a heap of cut-up sprue in an electric spice grinder a while back, to make plastic 'sand' which I have been using on bases instead of normal sand. Turns out I need a better spice grinder with fewer plastic parts as it ripped it up a little, but the idea is sound

3. They could simplify their packaging.

How?

4. They could look to making their paints more Environmentally friendly.

In what way are the paints not environmentally friendly?

5. Transport costs could be reduced as boxes and deliveries would be smaller.

Boxes, in large part, are limited by the size of the items in them. Some sets could be in smaller boxes, sure... but part of the problem is that they have tried to create a system that uses the fewest necessary number of differently-sized boxes, as that improves shelf presence and makes the whole box supply thing less complicated.

Making the boxes smaller also potentially impacts on sales. There's a 'perceived value' thing going on there... making the boxes smaller makes them seem like they should be worth less. Bigger box says bigger price-tag. It's illogical, but it's the way the human brain works.

6. These reductions could be passed onto the consumer (Very unlikely, I know but we have to push this!)

Yeah, that'll happen.

what if they reused whole boxes. If you buy a box and don't rip it up take your pieces out and then they could set up a system at a gw or other gaming store for return boxes that then can be shipped back to the production plant and completely reused. they wouldn't be able to reuse broken boxes or ones with anything spilled on them. and then to encourage it they could make it like selling pop cans and when you bring in a box give you a little bit of money. It wouldn't be much but it's free money. Only problem I can really think of would be having to ship boxes back. from a company perspective that could be a pain paying for returning boxes. I guess it could be offset by cutting down on the amount of cardboard they need to buy in the first place.

Simplifying packaging is about using less ink, less fancy colours less pictures. Printing on card is quite expensive even in large quantities, remember it is all relative, cardboard needs to be shipped from somewhere delivered to GW, it needs to be printed, cut, foldered and assembled. All these things involve energy (e.g Carbon) I do reuse my sprues but i would happily drop them off to a GW workshop store to be recycled. Everything we produce in this world, has an associated energy cost, reduce what you consume and you reduce your impact simple. An interesting article in the ECONOMIST recently showed that if the UK reduced domestic energy consumption by adopting energysaving practices we could reduce our overrall annual Electrical consumption by 20%. This is a prime example of everyone doing their bit. Remember everything, without exception costs energy, some things that are superfluous (such as this hobby!) are not necessary for the human race to survive but we should endeavour to reduce all waste where possible, to minimise impact and offset the damage we are doing with all the chemicals, paint and plastics we use. I am massively pro-wargaming and i believe we can achieve a sustainable hobby which will be guilt free, its all about leadership, willpower and common sense.

mwnciboo wrote:Simplifying packaging is about using less ink, less fancy colours less pictures. Printing on card is quite expensive even in large quantities, remember it is all relative, cardboard needs to be shipped from somewhere delivered to GW, it needs to be printed, cut, foldered and assembled.

The thing is, making the packaging less attractive (by reducing the pictures and/or colours) also potentially reduces sales. There's a reason that GW put as much effort into their packaging as they do... it improves perception of the product.

It's all well and good to say that companies need to be more environmentally aware... but when you're talking about a publicly listed company that exists to make profit for its shareholders, you have to give them a viable economic reason to change what they do.

For a niche company like Games Workshop, proving that the goodwill they would garner from being more visibly environmentally aware is going to result in enough increase in sales to offset the sales lost through making their packaging less pretty than the competition, and the cost of changing their packaging system, would take some creative fast-talking, I'm thinking.


Again, not saying it's not an admirable goal... but just expecting them to change because it's the 'right' thing to do won't get very far.

Unfortunately, Insaniak I think you are completely correct. The very fact that this is a Shareholder lead Company means profits are put before all, to ensure a good dividend. Its nice to know that quite alot of other gamers think that it can be very wasteful, also nice to hear that other gamers try to reuse and recycle as much of their sprues as possible.

The carboard goes in the cardboard recycling bag.
The old sprue that I'am not converting, goes into the plastic recycling bag.

Just do the same, It's as good as it gets

I think not to recycle is just wrong.

But honestly, I dont see much potential in reducing the waste of/from GW-Products.

I'm just thinking, if they made it so the identical parts (arms/legs/weapons) go on single sided sprues (like you get from FW) would that reduce the amount of plastic used?

So something like this'

|-----|------|-----|
part part part part

GW packaging always seems pretty spartan to me. Their only indulgence seems to be 1 or 2 paint pots in each little baggie, and that's clearly to cut down on damage from spillages/breakages in transit.

I'd imagine that the boxes for things like vehicles are standard sizes, tailoring them to each kit would in fact be less efficient. I prefer this way to the polystyrene inserts that used to be the norm in every boxed set.

The sprue thing is interesting as well, it's worth remembering that they'll have already thinned down the amount of material they have to waste in the frame to cut costs. If it could be thinner it would be.l

I already recycle and always have done.

In the old days when models were packaged in polystyrene I used this to make ruined buildings. Like wise with the cardbord from the boxes. I was acctully slightly annoyed when they stopped packing in Polly I lost my quick supply of ruins. As for sprues, they made exelent rubble or old Iron supports. Also with some work they are the perfect shape to to make gold bullion or even candle sticks and holders. Dont believe me look here.

I find I can always find a use for somthing .

cast your models and melt down the sprues 100% GW product

kidding, thats bad


i like the idea of GW accepting the old Sprues to recycle them. i got like 2 tons of sprues clogging up my bedroom(which i don't sleep in anymore )

the GW stores coult at least have a bin. even if they didn't give you a bonus for it.

Grey Templar wrote:cast your models and melt down the sprues 100% GW product

kidding, thats bad


i like the idea of GW accepting the old Sprues to recycle them. i got like 2 tons of sprues clogging up my bedroom(which i don't sleep in anymore )

the GW stores coult at least have a bin. even if they didn't give you a bonus for it.

I suppose you could get a GW awards card and get special Green points for every ounce (or other arbitrary unit of mass) of sprue you recycle wiith them. Even if they don't use them for models due to quality issuses this shouldn't affect them using it to make the bases which don't need to be as good quality.

Or you could sculpt your own models and cast them with the plastic. Though I did hear somewhere that is ok to cast other peoples models as long as you only use them for personal use and don't sell them, don't take this as gospel it just a rumor I heard .

Obsidian wrote:Though I did hear somewhere that is ok to cast other peoples models as long as you only use them for personal use and don't sell them, don't take this as gospel it just a rumor I heard .

It's illegal to cast any model to which you do not own the copyright.

This is true both for the UK and the US.

I have no knowledge of copyright law in other European countries or Australia.

SaintHazard wrote:

Obsidian wrote:Though I did hear somewhere that is ok to cast other peoples models as long as you only use them for personal use and don't sell them, don't take this as gospel it just a rumor I heard .

It's illegal to cast any model to which you do not own the copyright.

This is true both for the UK and the US.

I have no knowledge of copyright law in other European countries or Australia.

I stand corrected

I believe casting models that you don't own the copyright to, regardless of the purpose for doing so, qualifies as a tort here in the US and I'd imagine the UK and Canada as well although the specific legal terms may very. In which case legal or not you would get sued. Please no one start in on fair use and repairing broken parts, you will make the infant Flying Spaghetti Monster cry .

As for the recycling thing, I've started to get the impression that the membership here on Dakka is a pretty accurate depiction of the market for GW. This would lead me to believe that a significant (possibly dominant) portion of their consumer base is here in the US. So if your goal is to reduce carbon emissions then, due to shipping, the only way to do that with your idea is to open a production plant here in the US. However as you can imagine just opening the second plant would increase emissions from the overhead alone and defeat the purpose.

Really they would do more good simply by throwing money at wild life conservations and the like.

EDIT: Emoticon != Orkmoticon Viva Dakka!

ComputerGeek01 wrote:So if your goal is to reduce carbon emissions then, due to shipping, the only way to do that with your idea is to open a production plant here in the US.

Like the one in Memphis that's been there for about a decade now?

SaintHazard wrote:

Obsidian wrote:Though I did hear somewhere that is ok to cast other peoples models as long as you only use them for personal use and don't sell them, don't take this as gospel it just a rumor I heard .

It's illegal to cast any model to which you do not own the copyright.

This is true both for the UK and the US.

I have no knowledge of copyright law in other European countries or Australia.

In Germany it is legal to do so, as long as you keep it yourself. Not even gifting it to someone would be allowed.

the sprue is just so they can cast models quickly and cheaply it wouldnt make much sense to make all the little bit seperatly that would be worse for the enviroment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i guess you could use less plastic tho

The packaging on GW figures is pretty small. Lets not forget that GW don't want packaging to be too small because they wantot prevent shoplifting. Theft of blisters must be a huge problem for them. They largely use paper and card instead of plastic which is good.

The volume of sprue used - well you need a reasonable amount of sprue to lay out the parts and ensure that you don't get miscasts as the molten plastic can't navigate the mould and reach all the parts. I imagine GW lay out their sprues to achieve a balance between excess plastic and a certain percentage of miscasts.

I've seen mention of recycling sprues recently, I wasn't aware that you could do such a thing. Not all plastics can be melted down and used again, I thought their plastic was a thermoset and once solidified cannot be reused. If it could be reused, and given the increasing numbers of plastic GW kits, I suppose GW stores could set up collection points for people to dump their waste sprue rather than filling their bin bags with it at home, and encourage customers by giving them points that they could save up to eventually get a free figure of some sort.

Just a thought, my feeling is that it wouldn't be economically viable to transport and recycle the waste plastic however environmentally aware it would be.

my local store moved ALL the blisters and boxs into a glass case for that very reason.

my group plays in an area in the back of the store next to the models and the area is right next to the emergency exit(which is how we enter the store as the alarm is always turned off when we are there)

it wasn't anyone from our group that was stealing. they were caught on tape, but no one we knew was doing it. they would come in during game night and walk out the emergency exit. pretty sneaky.



on the topic of waste.

GW could seperate all the bits from the sprues and put them in the packaging loose. this would allow them to reuse the plastic from the sprues. they could even keep the packages the same size and reduce waste. which could be translated into savings for the consumer.

likely it would get turned into profit for them as they would keep the price the same.

Grey Templar wrote:GW could seperate all the bits from the sprues and put them in the packaging loose. this would allow them to reuse the plastic from the sprues. they could even keep the packages the same size and reduce waste. which could be translated into savings for the consumer.

likely it would get turned into profit for them as they would keep the price the same.

Are you not going to pay the army of people to cut the bits off the sprues? I don't know how much is automated but I guess that currently the sprues are whipped out of a mould, sorted and boxed which takes a few people a matter of seconds each on a production line, it could take 10 minutes a box to cut all the parts off a whole kit, likely longer. Then there's the possibility of damaging parts in removing them and the reaction of customers opening boxes to find a heap of bits in the bottom like a lego toy.

What the heck is this? I for one never mind taking out the soapbox or listening to others soapboxers out there, but this is just preposterous, GW is one of the last companies I would try to incriminate for ruining the environment, since they have taken steps in the last decade towards reducing their pressure on the environment with smaller sprues and more environment friendly packaging. I could drink a buck of their paint at the worse I would get is a slight pain in my stomach and a more colorful stool sample to give to the doctor to freak him out. As for the cardboard boxes, they have greatly reduced the amount of resources in these and if I remember correctly they get their cardboards from local factories.

This, people, is what happens when "smug" start spreading. Be happy that you have a tabletop gaming company that gives a about the environment in the first place and stop trying to improve what is good to begin with.

Rant done!

bravo my good man.



i was simply suggesting a way to improve things. do i feel things need to be done? NO


I agree with you 100% and that isn't sarcasim

Grey Templar wrote:I agree with you 100% and that isn't sarcasim

Either you are sincere or you have mastered the art of Ultra-Sarcasm.

So let me get this straight, your against them improving their working practices because their are other companies that are worse. This is the "China-American Complex" because other countries see that China and American pollute so much that there is no point in them trying to reduce their consumption because it will make no difference.
IMHO Thats like saying fraud is not a serious crime because there are other more serious crimes being committed.
Environmentally concerns are ,granted, less of a concern globally, but be under no illusion this hobby, is pretty frivolous especially when you consider a sizable number of people of globally don't have enough food to eat. I love this hobby, but I really think we should aim to offset and reduce waste. To re-iterate it's about taking a lead, and setting the agenda for others to follow. Imagine where mankind would be now if people had not gone against the flow, dared to think differently or lead humanity down different paths. JFK and the Space Programme, Copernicus and Columbus et al.