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Alright before i start i have to say two things. So i know this is semi list building too but i want to know what units and why, or how to use them. I know its hard for space marines to win at low point games without being able to take the real toys. My group of gamers and i play short games of combat patrol and the winners face off and losers face off. The army i can not win against, i believe i have lost 3 possibly 4 times against is an Ork army.

The Ork Army

10 Hard Boys
1 Nob with power klaw
1 Warboss with big choppa
1 truck

10 shoota boys
1 rokkit launcha

The truck charges straight into action carrying the hard boys, nob and warboss. The shoota boys don't shoot, they just run; the boys eventually join in the gore the hard boys have started.

Right now the best marine list i can come up with is:

5man tac squad
Razorback
Powerfist

10man tac squad
Flamer
M. Launcher

I could take a smaller unit and have them both hiding in tanks for a bit of armor, also to drive away from them nasty boys while using the fire points; but i don't want to give up the missile launcher. As i have used the M. launcher to destroy the truck before they can make there move. It is combat patrol rules so no scout squad in a land raider is allowed though i could take an hq for some more punch. I was thinking lib with avenger shooting from a rhino may work well, template auto hits, kills on 3+ and the hard boys don't get there armor saves.

Any input is appreciated as i am totally unable to deal with the orks

to me... even in a 2000 point game.... a power fist is too expensive. so I'd advocate dropping that. both of your armies need generals. mech up your big squad so the rhino, not the marines, will be taking the charge from the hard boyz.

If they assault and destroy the rhino (which they probably 100% will) should i counter charge with my squad that was forced to disembark? Or should i try to make good use of my bolt guns and flamer? If i am charging and not able to shoot should i drop the bolters and get bolt pistols and swords on tac squad? Also what would be good to replace the powerfist with? More marines?

I could possibly do a full 10 man tactical squad, 5 scouts and a few assault marines?

use your bolt pistol and flamer, then charge them. orks are pretty easy to manage if you charge them. free up another 10 points somewhere and drop the power fist. that will pay for a rhino. assault marines are good for fighting orks scouts are a no-go.

ty for the advice

sure. goodluck.

do you have no devastators??

taylorton147 wrote:do you have no devastators??

It looks like it's under 500pts, devastators are way to expensive for that. As AF said, use the marines bolt pistols and the flamer then charge (remember that marines come with a bolter and bolt pistol basic) But I think you should keep the powerfist for taking on that nob. Anyway, what would you do with the 10pts you get for dropping to a power weapon? That not enough even for a scout.

Anyway, what would you do with the 10pts you get for dropping to a power weapon? That not enough even for a scout.

Powerfist is 25 points, also the points are listed in my first post.

do you have no devastators??

At 350 i could fit in a 5 man squad with 2 heavy weapons, and thats at 90+30 points instead of having a full tac squad with 1 heavy weapon for 80 points. So an extra 50 points for one more weapon. Also i probably wouldnt get more then one round of shooting, and as i said i can generally pop the truck in the first round with a single m launcher.

I'd do:

5 man scout snipers with ML (rending and pinning could prove useful against so few orks!)

10 man tac marines combat squaded
ML in back
Plasma Gun and Plasma Pistol in rhino with either extra SB or HK

Some point value as your original crew.

One thing that's great again orks at small points values is the thunderfire cannon.
It's only 100 points, and can wipe out squads in one shot (especially if they're only 10 orks strong), four blast templetes a turn, and long range means you'll be taking out orks from turn one. Destroy the trukk and then you'll have a couple more turns before they reach your lines.

Also consider the Dakk pred which comes in cheaper and possibly more survivable in bigger games. (although it may not be allowed depending on how stict you are with the combat patrol rules.)
Actually the techmarine operating the thunderfire has a 2+ save so he might not be allowed either. Although, if your opponent is beating you everytime maybe he should let you, besides he has a warboss with 3 wounds which IIRC isn't allowed either.) It's been a while since I combat patrolled.

What ever you do, you need more shots to take out the trukk. One missile a turn is not enough, especially as by turn two it may be too late any way.

2 Scout Squads with Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher
Chaplain Cassius
5 Tactical Terminators with Heavy Flamer

Shoot the trukk with the missiles, the Termies at the Shoota boyz. Shoot a sniper squad at each squad after the trukk is dead and try for pinning. If you Pin, great. If not, keep blasting. They'll be too weak by the time they get to you to stand up to the terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:2 Scout Squads with Sniper Rifles and Missile Launcher
Chaplain Cassius
5 Tactical Terminators with Heavy Flamer

Shoot the trukk with the missiles, the Termies at the Shoota boyz. Shoot a sniper squad at each squad after the trukk is dead and try for pinning. If you Pin, great. If not, keep blasting. They'll be too weak by the time they get to you to stand up to the terminators.

Or the same list as above, but take out the termies and put in two Thunderfire Cannons. The Orks won't know what hit them.

Against Orks, you always want to aim for the highest shot quantity. That being said, given how small your respective lists are, you want to get a little more firepower in there.

Like AF said, the Power Fist is probably a little too expensive for this kind of a list, and especially also b/c you're playing against Orks. A Power Weapon would suit you better b/c A) SM have a higher initiative than Orks do, and you want to attack them before they get to swing back and B) if the only AV you're going up against is a Trukk, then Krak Grenades will be more than enough to take it out.

For the 10 man Tact Squad, I'd consider going with a Heavy Bolter instead of the Missile Launcher. You get more shots, and it's better at killing Orks than your Bolters. Your Missile Launcher, having the potential to scatter, would not be as efficient in this case, especially when you know exactly what he's bringing. Don't worry about the Trukk. I estimate by Turn 2, he'll be out of it anyway, and it'll just be used for ramming, tank shocking, or contesting. Worry about what's inside and how to deal with them, and then the Trukk will be a non-factor.

Tactically speaking, take out the group of Shoota Boyz first with this squad, and let the Razorback deal with the Hard Boyz. Make him come to you, and while he's slogging up the board, focus fire and pick off his units one at a time. I love playing against Orks, not only b/c they're cool and all that, but because of the group tactics I like to play.

Btw, I understand you're new to the game and still learning the basics, but you ought to get an HQ unit there somewhere. At least then, the list will be legal.

Good luck!

Free weapon options are all you need.

here is a nice little 500 point list that will give orks a bad time.

Chaplain(best wargear of the naked HQs)

10 Tac marines(Sergeant has BP and CCW, and they have a flamer and a Missile launcher)

10 scouts (10 with BP and CCW)

split the Tac marines. put the chaplain with the scouts.

Missile and 4 marines hang back and drop the template each turn and any long range bolter shots.

Chaplain gives the scouts fearless and allows them to reroll to hit in the first round(something needed on WS3)

MAKE SURE YOU GET THE CHARGE!!!!!

Why not pony up the 25 points for Classics?

because scouts can get CCWs and BPs. which hit more often then a Space Marine does when they reroll to hit.

Are they T6 with a combiflamer? Who can run with the scouts and give them more cc hits? Who you'd only have to drop two scouts to use?

Grey Templar wrote:MAKE SURE YOU GET THE CHARGE!!!!!

QTF, especially when playing against Orks!

I understand you're new to the game and still learning the basics, but you ought to get an HQ unit there somewhere. At least then, the list will be legal.

Combat patrol has a different force org chart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Leonus

Plasma Gun and Plasma Pistol in rhino with either extra SB or HK

@Rurouni Benshin

Against Orks, you always want to aim for the highest shot quantity. That being said, given how small your respective lists are, you want to get a little more firepower in there.

You two are both telling me opposite things. Plasma gun and pistol would be better then flamer and combi flamer? Would it be better to drop the M. Launcher for a heavy bolter? I fear the truck could advance possibly 2 turns before i could destroy it.

@Kapitan Montag

One thing that's great again orks at small points values is the thunderfire cannon.

I would love to use one, i have close to 5 thousand points and don't own one. I will probably pick one up in time.

Ty everyone for the advice, we have all been balancing our smaller armies to beat each other and on this one i have been completely stuck.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
The list i am thinking to use next is

10 marines
Heavy Bolter
Combi-Flamer
Flamer
Rhino
215

5 Marines
3 With Bolt Pistols and CCW
Combi Flamer
Flamer
RazorBack
135

350 Exactly

I can possibly pop the truck with the heavy bolter, and the TL heavy bolter. Keep my guys safe in the their transports. When they are charged and destroyed i will shoot the flamers and bolt pistols and charge the orks so they dont have there +1s +1i bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually looking at that list i think i would like to drop 1 combi flamer and replace it with a power sword, Also replacing the Razor back for rhino to have the 5 more points to put it towards the power sword.

kaidsin wrote:You two are both telling me opposite things. Plasma gun and pistol would be better then flamer and combi flamer? Would it be better to drop the M. Launcher for a heavy bolter? I fear the truck could advance possibly 2 turns before i could destroy it.

I would stay away from Plasma weapons for these reasons:

1. "Gets Hot!" rule sucks. Even though there's only a 5.5% chance of it killing a Marine, why chance it?
2. Ork saves are rarely better than 4+. An AP 2 weapon wouldn't be anymore effective than an AP 4 weapon. Granted Plasma weapons are stronger, but a single shot coming from a Pistol, or a double shot from a Gun, or the potential of a scatter from a Cannon don't match up to a Heavy Bolters 3 shots, which will always get shots each turn.

Let's go over your revised list.

kaidsin wrote:
The list i am thinking to use next is

10 marines
Heavy Bolter
Combi-Flamer
Flamer
Rhino
215

The Combi-Flamer on the Sgt isn't a bad idea. The only problem I see is if you get caught in CC then you'll be hard pressed to fight the Warboss.

kaidsin wrote:
5 Marines
3 With Bolt Pistols and CCW
Combi Flamer
Flamer
RazorBack
135

Tactical Marines don't get CCW's, FYI. Unless you're playing another codex that I'm not aware of that gives it to them, Vanilla Marines do not get it. Also, you need to have a full 10 man squad before taking any special or heavy weapons on your normal marines. In a squad of 5, the only person allowed special weapons is the Sgt.

kaidsin wrote:I can possibly pop the truck with the heavy bolter, and the TL heavy bolter. Keep my guys safe in the their transports. When they are charged and destroyed i will shoot the flamers and bolt pistols and charge the orks so they dont have there +1s +1i bonus.

Again, don't worry about the Trukk too much. The Trukk can only fit 12 people, which means his other squad is legging it. While he's moving his Trukk forward, focus ALL of your firepower on the guys legging it towards you. At 24", all of your Bolters will reach if you don't move, along with your Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolters. By the time his Trukk is close enough, his back squad will be all but decimated.

kaidsin wrote:Actually looking at that list i think i would like to drop 1 combi flamer and replace it with a power sword, Also replacing the Razor back for rhino to have the 5 more points to put it towards the power sword.

Good move on the Power Sword, but I don't know if it's worth taking away the Razorback for it.

Try this list:

Tactical Squad of 10
- Flamer
- Heavy Bolter
- Razorback

Points: 210

Scout Squad of 5
- CCW and Bolt Pistols
- Power Weapon

Points 90

Land Speeder Storm

Points 50

Exactly 350 Points

Proposed Tactics:

1. Combat Squad the Tact Squad, and keep the Heavy Bolter in the back. Put the other 5 in the Razorback, and just pick off his slogging Ork squad with the Heavy Bolters. The Scouts, in the LSS, also have a Heavy Bolter. They can take pot shots at the slogging squad as well. And if you manage to get an assault on them from the Scouts, they'll be harder pressed to stay in combat with your Scouts numerous attacks, combined with the Cerberus Launchers from the LSS.

2. Once that squad's gone, now you can focus on the Trukk. If he hasn't disembarked any of his guys yet, shoot your Heavy Bolters at it, and odds are you'll at least Stun or Shake it, keeping the Orks from shooting you inside the Trukk. If he does disembark, do your best to avoid his charge, and set up a gunline to mow down his last unit. You probably won't even have to assault him to win with all of the Rapid Fire your units are packing.

Things to bare in mind:
1. Don't assault with the Scouts unless you've widdled down his squad of Boyz at least halfway, but even if he manages to make a few cover saves from your Heavy Bolters, your Bolt Pistols will work well too. Combine that with 12 CC and 4 Power Weapon attacks, I'm pretty sure he won't last long in CC. Best case scenario is that you win the fight, and manage to consolidate back into the LSS in the same turn. (Thought I read somewhere that you can consolidate back into a vehicle as long as it's Open Topped. I'll have to verify that later).

2. His only ranged Anti-tank weapon is his Rokkit Launcher. You have 2 vehicles, but he's only got one Rokkit. This is the reason why you should go after that squad first. If you disable his Rokkit, then he's got to get into melee with you to destroy your vehicles. If he assaults your vehicle and destroys it, he can't assault the guys in the Razorback again on his turn, leaving you the chance to set up your charge on your turn, and to form the gunline with your other units.

Good luck!

I'm sorry, did you say "dont worry about the Trukk?"

You do realize there's a Warboss inside of it. If you let that thing run around unmolested you are begging to lose.

OP: I play as Space Marines versus Orks all the time, and I'll tell you what I would do with the list that you put up. Combat squad your big squad and shoot everything at the trukk until it is dead. Then just run away with everything that doesn't need to stay put to shoot it's heavy weapon, blazing with your missile launcher and heavy Bolter. Once you start putting some wounds on those mobs of Boyz there's a decent chance of them breaking and running.

Just do not let them charge you unless you're set to immediately countercharge. if you can break up his formation and whittle away his Boyz you have a pretty good shot. Just remember to stick to the objectives or deny him kill points. Remember that once you pop that trukk you're winning until you let him catch you in Annihilation! Space Marines might not be able to kick everyone's Ass toe to toe, but a good tactica will win a lot of games with them.

The powerfist should be kept, because you don't have a prayer in CC with the Warboss without it.

ummmm.... dumb question.... how do you run away and shoot the missile launcher?

yes a 20 man ork squad is nowhere near as good as a 30 man ork squad. a 10 man ork squad is nearly useless. it's not just the obvious "ofcourse as you kill them they'll get less threatening" - with orks it happens faster than with other races.

if you can keep them from charging you you're in much better shape, again, even more so than with other races. I can see the rationale behind the powerfist.... ok.... but at least put it in the 10 man squad if you're in the 5 man squad you'll only get to swing once.
AF

Think about it AF. Are we being that hyper-literal or is it possible that I was saying to run away with everything that isn't using a heavy weapon that you should be shooting?

For feth's sake fill in some blanks on your own, people.

well.... I don't know about hyper-literal.... certainly we're insisting on a minimum of continuity between our descriptive language and what the game mechanics permit... or maybe it's just late and I ought to go to bed

Monster Rain wrote:I'm sorry, did you say "dont worry about the Trukk?"

You do realize there's a Warboss inside of it. If you let that thing run around unmolested you are begging to lose.

More to the point I was making before that he "should worry about what's inside it and not the Trukk itself". Taking a Missile Launcher shot at it could slow it down, but it's not going to stop the entire unit inside from advancing. And like I said before, his only chance of destroying the Razorback (without the Rokkit) is in CC. Takeout the Rokkit, and then focus on the Trukk, assuming the Nobz and Warboss are still on it. Otherwise, the Trukk is dead weight.

Either way, taking a Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter are both good choices. Obviously, it would depend on how he uses either and what strategy he decides to employ. If you take the ML, aim it at the Trukk and hope it hits. Take the HB, and just dakka the Boyz to death.

If you keep your distance with the Tact Squads, I don't see how this is a problem. If the Boyz get into trouble early, he'll be hard pressed to choose between going back to help them with the Warboss unit or press forward to go after the Tact Squad. Once he's divided, you can pick his army apart a lot easier. If he pushes forward towards the Razorback, he'll have to disembark and assault it to destroy it. On your turn, you then Rapid Fire them with the HB/ML squad, and the Combat Squad that was in the Razorback set themselves up for an Assault. If you can get the Scouts back into the fray that same turn, all the better. Otherwise, assuming that the first Tact Squad lives through the Ork players Assault phase, you have more units that can join the assault on your following turn.

Of course, in a perfect world, this will make sense, but unfortunately, until it hits the tabletop, nothing's proven. Good luck!

10 Man tactical squad
Heavy Bolter
Flamer
Combi Flamer
Rhino 215

Assault Squad
Jump packs removed
Rhino
Power Weapon 115

330

Possibly make that power weapon a power fist? Or add a power fist into the first squad?


Just so you know, the group dosent really care about force org, if i played 1 troop 1 fast that would be ok,

Put a Flamer on the Assault Squad. If you give one unit the Power Weapon, give the other unit the Power Fist. The Power Weapon might match better with the Assault troops, since they all attack at the same initiative with a lot of attacks.

At such small points levels you're at a severe disadvantage, you don't have the points to get your firepower going but the orks have their assault going just fine. Not to mention that you can only afford your two troops choices and orks have much better troops.

If I wanted to beat that ork list with marines I'd take a captain on bike and two bike squads.

Keep at max range (24"). Shoot the trukk with everything so that all the orks are walking. Keep away from them while killing them with shooting. Once you've taken out the trukk the only thing he has that can hurt you is the rokkit, that might kill two guys over the course of the game.

If I wanted to beat that ork list with marines I'd take a captain on bike and two bike squads.

Unfortunately i don't own any bikes. Always thought they didn't look nice. But i could see how moving away would be really useful.

At the moment it's extremely difficult for you to win. If you used the bike army I suggested your opponent would be in the same position.

Your best bet is to push towards larger games or switch to playing kill teams.

At points this low things can be very skewed. Once you get to 1K it'll start to even out.