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Made in us
Commanding Orc Boss




Quick Question:

My opponent in one game had a Hive Tyrant with a single Tyrant Guard. Joined to this unit was a Tyranid Prime. During the game he would run his Hive Tyrant across the field but still keep the Prime and the Guard inside area terrain. Now when it came time to shoot plasma into the unit, he said he could claim a coversave for his unit from the Area Terrain because it was a unit, and more than half of it was inside area terrain. This seemed strange as I know that MC can't claim Area Terrain cover.

I decided not to argue it because I did not have a partiular rule to stand by off the top of my head, so may I ask have any of you found anything that proves this wrong or right?

Also for kicks and giggles I'm posting a poll above. Why not, right?

I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause. 
   
Made in ca
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker



Grande Prairie , Alberta , Canada

can a monstrous creature join another unit ? never fielded one before or fought one.

paint your minis. It adds an extra layer of bullet protection!! well .....  
   
Made in us
Commanding Orc Boss




Yes the Hive Tyrant is a MC which can get a retinue of up to 3 hive guard.

I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Dogfighter




Garden Grove, CA

http://www.mediafire.com/gwarsunofficialfaqs

Tyranid FAQ. And the SW and BA one's are also good to know. And I think yes, kind of like Tomb Spyders when it spawns scarabs, the spyder is an MC but can get a cover save by having the scarab, which is a part of the unit btw, be in cover, and since 50% of the unit is in cover, the unit gets a cover save.

So in short, the Tyrant gets a cover save.

"Do not practice until you get it right, practice until you can not get it wrong." In other words, stop effing up.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

MC's claim cover just like vehicles. P.51
and page 62 has the rules for vehicle cover. (50% of the model needs to be hidden by intervening terrain to get a save)
so unless 1/2 the MC in hidden by cover (not just in terrain that affords cover) he does not get a cover save.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in ca
Sergeant First Class






Deathreaper: The Tyranid Codex and FAQ override the MC status. Otherwise, what the hell would be the point in taking Tyrant Guard since they would just allocate all the shots at the Tyrant, since he is IC/MC and can be picked out. Therefore, Ripper Swarms can grant them cover!

Before I hear cries of waaambulance, note how many points a Tyrant with minimal gear plus 2 Guard are: North of 320 points.

   
Made in us
Legendary Dogfighter




Garden Grove, CA

Don't forget they still have to walk across the map.

"Do not practice until you get it right, practice until you can not get it wrong." In other words, stop effing up.
 
   
Made in us
Commanding Orc Boss




But... well... Thats an unofficial FAQ...

I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Dogfighter




Garden Grove, CA

Don't tell Gwar! that!

https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018§ion=&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2

Tyranid FAQ is near the bottom.

"Do not practice until you get it right, practice until you can not get it wrong." In other words, stop effing up.
 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





DeathReaper wrote:MC's claim cover just like vehicles. P.51
and page 62 has the rules for vehicle cover. (50% of the model needs to be hidden by intervening terrain to get a save)
so unless 1/2 the MC in hidden by cover (not just in terrain that affords cover) he does not get a cover save.


There is a second part to that rule.

The part that tells you to use the standard infantry rules to determine if the entire squad/squadron/unit is in cover.

You use the vehicles "50% rule" to determine if the individual members are in cover.....and using that information you determine if the entire squad/squadron/unit can claim a cover save.

The same applies to MCs.

Should 50% (or more) of the units individual members be in cover, then the entire unit can claim a cover save.
Since the Tyrant Guard and the Prime are in cover then 66% of the unit is in cover, and so the Tyrant also recieves a cover save.
Compare it to a SM Tactical squad. Should 6 members (60%) be in cover, then the entire 10 man squad can claim a cover save.

The MC rule just tells us that it is more difficult for the individual MC to be able to add to the "in cover" total.

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




As Steelmage said.

A unit receives a cover save or it does not, as a whole. So you determine if 50% or more of the models are in cover, as usual. While the MC cannot claim cover from the area terrain directly, the other members of the unit can. As long as 2 of the 3 are in cover then the whole unit counts as in cover, as normal.

Note: the HT is NOT AN IC and therefore cannot be targetted for shooting; he only joins the unit AS an IC, never actually remains one.
   
Made in us
Commanding Orc Boss




xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Don't tell Gwar! that!


Oh dont get me wrong, I very much love how Gwar writes his own FAQ's for otherwise unexplained questions. However right now I'm looking for the official ruling. In the polls its pretty neck-and-neck right now

I'm somewhat convinced now, though it still seems very awkward that a giant monster would recieve benefits from his small bodyguards standing inside some shrubbery nearby while he is in the open....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 08:23:39


I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Dogfighter




Garden Grove, CA

It doesn't make sense?

Remember you are playing a game full of 7ft tall steroid fueled men in armor that weighs as much as a civic. Full of undead metal beings, elves, and a race made out of mushrooms.

That just makes perfect sense

I know the it doesn't make sense exactly, but that's the way it is.

EDIT: There is also a prior example of this, Tomb spyders and scarabs. They are one unit and if the scarabs are in cover, then the tomb spyder gets a cover save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 09:37:23


"Do not practice until you get it right, practice until you can not get it wrong." In other words, stop effing up.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




This also doesnt need a poll - the rules are absiolutely 100% clear with absolutely no wiggle room.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







nosferatu1001 wrote:This also doesnt need a poll - the rules are absiolutely 100% clear with absolutely no wiggle room.
This.

Notice how the answer is labeled RaW in my Faq. That's because it is Raw.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!)
 
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

Page 51. Monstrous Creatures.
"Cover for them [monstrous creatures] work exactly as for vehicles (see page 62)"

Page 62. Vehicles and cover - obscured targets.
Not strictly relevant to the situation at hand, but it is a good section to read. Let's turn the pages to find out how vehicles in units take cover saves.

Page 64. Units of vehicles - squadrons. Shooting phase.
"Then he takes any cover saves available to the squadron - use the rules for vehicles to determine if each squadron member is in cover (ignoring the other members of the squadron,)<snip> then the rules for normal units to work out if the entire squadron is in cover or not"

So. While the Hive Tyrant may not claim cover saves from area terrain, the rules for cover saves (if we ignore the fact that cover saves assume the unit is of equal models) state that 50% or more of the targeted unit must be in cover for the unit to receive any cover, and so does the squadron of vehicle rules (i.e. 50% of the squadron must be in cover, after you've analysed cover for each vehicle separately).

If I've made any errors, please do point them out, preferably with page references so I can cross-check (simply stating "no you're wrong" doesn't help, yes?).

P.S. The Tyranid Prime (when joined to a unit) and the Tyrant Guard are not immune to difficult terrain, additionally the Hive Tyrant must be within 2" of the rest of the unit. For the unit to be allowed to move, even as a part of the unit, in difficult terrain they must take difficult terrain tests. The situation described in the OP seem a bit strange - he IS in coherency and he IS taking difficult terrain tests, right?

Edits: trimming the post down a bit.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/08/27 12:08:13


I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
Made in kr
Regular Dakkanaut




The FAQ has a specific ruling on this, and it's absolutely 100% specifically dealt with in the FAQ with zero room for interpretation. If a Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord has at least one Tyrant Guard and that Tyrant Guard is, itself, in cover then 50% of the unit is in cover. When 50% or more of a unit is in cover the entire unit can take a cover save.

A Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord may take a cover save if it has a Tyrant Guard in cover.

If you want to argue that it's cheesy, well, tough luck. He's walking across the entire board to begin with, allowing him to actually live more than one turn against yet-another-meched-up-gunline-army might suck for you but there's a lot of other things that balance it out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 12:18:32


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Gwar and Nos are correct per Page 22 of the BRB under the section "Units partially in cover". "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of it's models may take cover saves." The Tyrant determines cover by the MC rules, the Tyrant Guard and the Prime determine cover by the standard Infantry rules which include area terrain.

Although a few things the original poster included throws some doubt about his opponent and the way it was all played. It sounds like the Tyrant detached at some point to move the Tyrant more than 2" from the rest of the unit which would be moving it out of coherency, which cannot be done with a joined HT and Tyrant Guard. The HT may join a unit of TG as an IC, but beyond the initial joining, the HT and the TG become a retinue unit as the HT does not have the Independant Character rule, nor does it have a rule that allows it to leave the unit once joined. This means that the HT cannot be singled out in close combat or in the shooting phase. It also means that with more than 1 TG in the unit, opponents will be rolling against the 5 WS of the TG to hit versus the 8 WS of the Tyrant.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




It isnt, strictly, a retinue - this is important in KP missions as a retinue is worth two, whereas the HT is never an IC so the unit is only worth 1 (in fact by joining them together youdecrease the number of kill points, similar to guard infantry platoons)
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt, strictly, a retinue - this is important in KP missions as a retinue is worth two, whereas the HT is never an IC so the unit is only worth 1 (in fact by joining them together youdecrease the number of kill points, similar to guard infantry platoons)

Ahh, I hadn't thought about that. Thanks Nos. I suppose the HT would be more along the lines as an upgrade character similar to a sergeant.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




He isnt even that, the HT is just "there" - not an upgrade for the unit, just suddenly a member of it.
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

hamsterwheel wrote:Gwar and Nos are correct per Page 22 of the BRB under the section "Units partially in cover". "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of it's models may take cover saves." The Tyrant determines cover by the MC rules, the Tyrant Guard and the Prime determine cover by the standard Infantry rules which include area terrain.

The rules on page 22 are insufficient to describe what happens, which is why I quoted several rules. Flip to page 25 and read the first two lines on the page. As soon as you get a unit that does not consist of precisely the same models (i.e. more or less all the time) then the rules up until page 25 do not cover the situation fully. This is more of a problem from a layout point of view, since a complex unit would gain cover in precisely the same way as a normal unit, and the real problem is that the first line of Complex Units disqualifies a lot of fully functional rules for complex units. Additionally, Complex Units leaves out a line which would solve a lot of things (and possibly create new interesting problems) "unless noted otherwise, complex units differ in the following ways".

It's side tracking, sorry. Carry on.

I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mahtamori wrote:
hamsterwheel wrote:Gwar and Nos are correct per Page 22 of the BRB under the section "Units partially in cover". "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of it's models may take cover saves." The Tyrant determines cover by the MC rules, the Tyrant Guard and the Prime determine cover by the standard Infantry rules which include area terrain.

The rules on page 22 are insufficient to describe what happens, which is why I quoted several rules. Flip to page 25 and read the first two lines on the page. As soon as you get a unit that does not consist of precisely the same models (i.e. more or less all the time) then the rules up until page 25 do not cover the situation fully. This is more of a problem from a layout point of view, since a complex unit would gain cover in precisely the same way as a normal unit, and the real problem is that the first line of Complex Units disqualifies a lot of fully functional rules for complex units. Additionally, Complex Units leaves out a line which would solve a lot of things (and possibly create new interesting problems) "unless noted otherwise, complex units differ in the following ways".

It's side tracking, sorry. Carry on.


And if you continue reading about Complex units on page 25 of the BRB beyond just the first few lines you'll notice that it in no way changes the rules on page 22, it just adds "an extra step" per the second paragraph on page 25, which has to do with wound allocation and nothing to do with determining cover saves. This isn't a complicated matter, there is no ambiguity to it. As GWAR says "This is RAW".
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

As I wrote, it's a matter of layout (and choice of words) more than anything. Strictly speaking the second paragraph deals with allocating hits, and there's more than one extra step. The sub-section "Taking saving throws" (the last step) actually doesn't mention cover saves.
I'll concede I read the first paragraph too literally, but the rules on page 22 are still insufficient since the Hive Tyrant is a monstrous character which follows the rules for vehicles. Since these are rules which has significant deviations from normal cover rules, you need to read and analyse them, too. Page 25 is also relevant since it does state that the rules up to that point refer to homogeneous units, which is the rules telling you "watch out, there may be changes!".

I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
Made in kr
Regular Dakkanaut




That's fantastic and all and I'm super proud of you for spending so much time looking for ways around this but
SumYungGui wrote:The FAQ has a specific ruling on this, and it's absolutely 100% specifically dealt with in the FAQ with zero room for interpretation. If a Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord has at least one Tyrant Guard and that Tyrant Guard is, itself, in cover then 50% of the unit is in cover. When 50% or more of a unit is in cover the entire unit can take a cover save.

A Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord may take a cover save if it has a Tyrant Guard in cover.

If you want to argue that it's cheesy, well, tough luck. He's walking across the entire board to begin with, allowing him to actually live more than one turn against yet-another-meched-up-gunline-army might suck for you but there's a lot of other things that balance it out.
   
Made in us
Commanding Orc Boss




Ok thanks everyone.

And yes he was taking the nessesary tests and staying in coherency

I hate hard counters. In a game of rock, paper, scissors, I hate playing any of the factions because no matter what you choose you might as well not deploy against your hard counter. I want to use a gun. Rock, paper, and scissors could all probably still beat gun, but gun will never feel like a game is a lost cause. 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Alexandria

Yea, its totally legal for the tyrant to claim a save from attached guard or primes being in cover. There is no allowance for some models in a unit to have a cover save without the rest. Page 22 is very clear on this.

Whats even nastier to do though, is a brood of 2 carnifexes with 2 tyranid primes attached lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 16:20:09


- 3000 pts
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3850 pts 
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

I wonder what GW's policy is of copying text from their FAQs...
SumYungGui wrote:That's fantastic and all and I'm super proud of you for spending so much time looking for ways around this but
SumYungGui wrote:The FAQ has a specific ruling on this, and it's absolutely 100% specifically dealt with in the FAQ with zero room for interpretation. If a Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord has at least one Tyrant Guard and that Tyrant Guard is, itself, in cover then 50% of the unit is in cover. When 50% or more of a unit is in cover the entire unit can take a cover save.

A Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord may take a cover save if it has a Tyrant Guard in cover.

If you want to argue that it's cheesy, well, tough luck. He's walking across the entire board to begin with, allowing him to actually live more than one turn against yet-another-meched-up-gunline-army might suck for you but there's a lot of other things that balance it out.

No need to be snide. For your own reference, I've posted what the FAQ says on the subject of Tyran Guard.

Q: If a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord joins a unit of
Tyrant Guard, is it treated as an Independent Character
for the purposes of resolving shooting attacks (i.e.
independent characters who are monstrous creatures
can be targeted separately from the unit) and assaults
(i.e. independent characters always count as separate
units in an assault)?
A: No.

Q: Can a Hive Tyrant or the Swarmlord choose to leave
a unit of Tyrant Guard once it has joined them?
A: No.

Q: If a unit of Tyrant Guard, joined by either by a Hive
Tyrant or the Swarmlord, launches an assault in which
the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord is killed before the surviving
Tyrant Guard have struck any blows, will they gain
Strength and Initiative bonuses due to Furious Charge
even though they didn’t have this special rule at the
time when they initiated the assault?
A: No.

I must've missed the question or errata dealing with cover saves... care to point it out? Do note that we're not discussing targeting, we're discussing saves. And while on the subject of being snide, you'll also note that we've come to the conclusion that reading the rules carefully you'll find that the Hive Tyrant actually DOES get the cover save (well... as long as the Tyranid Prime doesn't end up in a position where it doesn't get a cover save).

I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mahtamori wrote:As I wrote, it's a matter of layout (and choice of words) more than anything. Strictly speaking the second paragraph deals with allocating hits, and there's more than one extra step. The sub-section "Taking saving throws" (the last step) actually doesn't mention cover saves.
I'll concede I read the first paragraph too literally, but the rules on page 22 are still insufficient since the Hive Tyrant is a monstrous character which follows the rules for vehicles. Since these are rules which has significant deviations from normal cover rules, you need to read and analyse them, too. Page 25 is also relevant since it does state that the rules up to that point refer to homogeneous units, which is the rules telling you "watch out, there may be changes!".


I, in no way alluded to the fact that the Tyrant gets a coversave from area terrain as he doesn't, as I said earlier, he follows the rules for MCs when determining cover which means he has to have over 50% of his covered up from the firer's perspective before receiving a coversave. Infantry, which the Tyrant Guard and the Tyranid Prime are both need only follow the standard rules concerning coversaves which include area terrain. But, since all 3 models are in the same unit, we apply the unit rules when determining if a unit is in cover. And those are pretty simple. If half or more of the models in a target unit are in cover, the whole unit receives a cover save per Page 22. So that means if the Tyrant is 50% obscured and 1 of the other models is in cover then the whole unit gets cover or if the two models that are Infantry are in cover, then the Tyrant gets cover because 50% or more of the models are in cover.

Now if you can find any shred of anything in the BRB indicating that Complex units take cover saves per anything different as described on page 22 for partially covered units, then please provide it.
   
Made in us
Huge Bone Giant





Oakland, CA -- U.S.A.

Steelmage99 wrote:You use the vehicles "50% rule" to determine if the individual members are in cover.....and using that information you determine if the entire squad/squadron/unit can claim a cover save.

The same applies to MCs.

Should 50% (or more) of the units individual members be in cover, then the entire unit can claim a cover save.
Since the Tyrant Guard and the Prime are in cover then 66% of the unit is in cover, and so the Tyrant also recieves a cover save.
Compare it to a SM Tactical squad. Should 6 members (60%) be in cover, then the entire 10 man squad can claim a cover save.

The MC rule just tells us that it is more difficult for the individual MC to be able to add to the "in cover" total.

Tyrant Guard can indeed guard Tyrants.
The Prime is optional.
Tyrant + Tyrant Guard in cover = 50% of the unit in cover = cover save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/27 17:25:50


"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."

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