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hamsterwheel wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:As I wrote, it's a matter of layout (and choice of words) more than anything. Strictly speaking the second paragraph deals with allocating hits, and there's more than one extra step. The sub-section "Taking saving throws" (the last step) actually doesn't mention cover saves.
I'll concede I read the first paragraph too literally, but the rules on page 22 are still insufficient since the Hive Tyrant is a monstrous character which follows the rules for vehicles. Since these are rules which has significant deviations from normal cover rules, you need to read and analyse them, too. Page 25 is also relevant since it does state that the rules up to that point refer to homogeneous units, which is the rules telling you "watch out, there may be changes!".

I, in no way alluded to the fact that the Tyrant gets a coversave from area terrain as he doesn't, as I said earlier, he follows the rules for MCs when determining cover which means he has to have over 50% of his covered up from the firer's perspective before receiving a coversave. Infantry, which the Tyrant Guard and the Tyranid Prime are both need only follow the standard rules concerning coversaves which include area terrain. But, since all 3 models are in the same unit, we apply the unit rules when determining if a unit is in cover. And those are pretty simple. If half or more of the models in a target unit are in cover, the whole unit receives a cover save per Page 22. So that means if the Tyrant is 50% obscured and 1 of the other models is in cover then the whole unit gets cover or if the two models that are Infantry are in cover, then the Tyrant gets cover because 50% or more of the models are in cover.

You can't reference the rules on page 22 in order to determine if the Hive Tyrant get a cover save any more than you can reference them to determine if a Leman Russ get a cover save, or a squad of War Walkers. Vehicles (which in this case the Hive Tyrant is treated like) have several exceptions, so you need to review those, too, to get a conclusive verdict.

Now if you can find any shred of anything in the BRB indicating that Complex units take cover saves per anything different as described on page 22 for partially covered units, then please provide it.

I've already conceded that point, so could you please drop it? And I didn't allude that you allude.

Mahtamori wrote:You can't reference the rules on page 22 in order to determine if the Hive Tyrant get a cover save any more than you can reference them to determine if a Leman Russ get a cover save, or a squad of War Walkers. Vehicles (which in this case the Hive Tyrant is treated like) have several exceptions, so you need to review those, too, to get a conclusive verdict.

Only if they are alone.

If the Tyrant is in a unit of infantry models, and those models can claim cover, there is no need to check the vehicle rules as the unit is (at least) half in cover.
Which allows the whole unit a cover save.

kirsanth wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:You can't reference the rules on page 22 in order to determine if the Hive Tyrant get a cover save any more than you can reference them to determine if a Leman Russ get a cover save, or a squad of War Walkers. Vehicles (which in this case the Hive Tyrant is treated like) have several exceptions, so you need to review those, too, to get a conclusive verdict.

Only if they are alone.

If the Tyrant is in a unit of infantry models, and those models can claim cover, there is no need to check the vehicle rules as the unit is (at least) half in cover.
Which allows the whole unit a cover save.

That is what the rules say on page 64, so in the end it all checks out. I'm just saying that only considering half the rules is insufficient since you know that other relevant rules may make exceptions.

joined or not the MC would still need to have 50% of himself covered as that is the only way he can take a cover save.

DeathReaper wrote:joined or not the MC would still need to have 50% of himself covered as that is the only way he can take a cover save.

No, it isn't. Read this thread as for why.

kill dem stunties wrote:Yea, its totally legal for the tyrant to claim a save from attached guard or primes being in cover. There is no allowance for some models in a unit to have a cover save without the rest. Page 22 is very clear on this.

Whats even nastier to do though, is a brood of 2 carnifexes with 2 tyranid primes attached lol.

sure page 22 is clear on that, however: (the 50% rule takes precedence.)

Page 51 says it all.
"Unless otherwise specified in their special rules,[the MC's special rules] MC's can not go to ground, voluntarily or otherwise. In addition, for a MC to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models. Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to MC's, the 50% rule takes precedence.

so the MC can not claim cover save since the 50% rule takes precedence.

kirsanth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:sure page 22 is clear on that, however: (the 50% rule takes precedence.)

Page 51 says it all.
"Unless otherwise specified in their special rules,[the MC's special rules] MC's can not go to ground, voluntarily or otherwise. In addition, for a MC to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models. Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to MC's, the 50% rule takes precedence.

so the MC can not claim cover save since the 50% rule takes precedence.

kirsanth wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:You can't reference the rules on page 22 in order to determine if the Hive Tyrant get a cover save any more than you can reference them to determine if a Leman Russ get a cover save, or a squad of War Walkers. Vehicles (which in this case the Hive Tyrant is treated like) have several exceptions, so you need to review those, too, to get a conclusive verdict.

Only if they are alone.

If the Tyrant is in a unit of infantry models, and those models can claim cover, there is no need to check the vehicle rules as the unit is (at least) half in cover.
Which allows the whole unit a cover save.

Mahtamori wrote:That is what the rules say on page 64, so in the end it all checks out. I'm just saying that only considering half the rules is insufficient since you know that other relevant rules may make exceptions.

Emphasis mine.

Thats why it states "the 50% rule takes precedence"

because you use the 50% rule no matter what he other ones say, it takes precedence over any other rules.

The 50% rule applies to the MC model.

Cover saves, however, are applied based upon the UNIT.

Example:
2 carnifex unit.
You cannot see 100% of one carnifex.
You can see 100% of the other.

50% of the unit is in cover, so BOTH carnifex get a save.

Make sense?

If not, re-read vehicle cover saves, especially regarding squadrons.

But like a squadron of vehicles, a squad of MC's like a carnifex brood, half of the squad has to be in cover, like normal infantry.

So the hive tyrant gets a cover save...

And following your logic, a necron tomb spyder (which is an MC) with a scarab attached and the scarab is in cover, the spyder wouldn't get a cover save, but it does since the unit as a whole is in cover.

kirsanth wrote:The 50% rule applies to the MC model.

Cover saves, however, are applied based upon the UNIT.

Example:
2 carnifex unit.
You cannot see 100% of one carnifex.
You can see 100% of the other.

50% of the unit is in cover, so BOTH carnifex get a save.

Make sense?

If not, re-read vehicle cover saves, especially regarding squadrons.

This contains a question for another thread, but I just thought I'd clarify that the total cover doesn't need to add up to 50%. You can have one carnifex 51% in cover and one carnifex not in cover at all, and even though only 25.5% of the whole unit is in cover, 50% of the models in the unit is in cover and thus all of them get the save.

True, and it may also be worth pointing out that if there is only one Tyrant Guard and it has no cover, the Tyrant itself would need to be 50% obscured in order for its unit to claim cover.

As a cover save is applied to the entire unit, not per model it works as such:

Assuming a Hive Tyrant with 3 Tyrant Guard

Is TG 1 in cover? Yes, he is standing in area terrain.

Is TG 2 in cover? Yes, he is standing in area terrain.

Is TG 3 in cover? No, he is standing in the open.

Is the HT in cover? No, he is standing in area terrain, but is a MC.

2 Yes/2 No...50% of the unit is in cover so the entire unit is granted a cover save.

Maelstrom808 wrote:As a cover save is applied to the entire unit, not per model it works as such:

Assuming a Hive Tyrant with 3 Tyrant Guard

Is TG 1 in cover? Yes, he is standing in area terrain.

Is TG 2 in cover? Yes, he is standing in area terrain.

Is TG 3 in cover? No, he is standing in the open.

Is the HT in cover? No, he is standing in area terrain, but is a MC.

2 Yes/2 No...50% of the unit is in cover so the entire unit is granted a cover save.

it only works that way for non MC's within units.

MC's rules for cover take precedence over any other rules, as per RAW.

so the MC has to be 50% obscured to claim a cover save, regardless of where his unit is (the unit can claim a cover save but not the MC attached to it)

DeathReaper = wrong.

If anyone else wonders, the reasons are already listed.

kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper = wrong.

If anyone else wonders, the reasons are already listed.

so you think the unit rules take take precedence over the MC rules? even though the MC rules clearly state that they take precedence over any other rules?

Interesting thought process...

It seems you are the one that is wrong maybe?

Cover saves are never granted to part of the unit. It either has the save or not. You determine if each model in the unit has cover. The only way a MC has cover is if it is 50% obscurred, and that 50% takes precedence over standing in area terrain...however, if after checking the rest of the models in the unit, you find that 50% of the unit is in cover then the entire unit is granted the save. Using the previous example I gave, let's say we delete the Hive Tyrant. Would the Tyrant Guard model that is standing in the open be denied a cover save? No, because the entire unit is granted cover. If you have a squadron of three LRBT and 2 of them are 50% obscurred, but one is not, all three get the cover save because it is granted to the entire unit. When it says "the 50% obscurred rule takes precedence", it is for determining if each model is in cover only, not if they are granted a cover save from the unit being 50% in cover.

If you want to put it into RAW terms:

Pg 51 BRB "Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to monsterous creatures - the 50% rule takes precedence." Okay so in the example I gave in the above post, the HT is standing in area terrain. With the quote from pg 51, he is not automatically given a cover save. No problem.

Pg 22 BRB "If half or more of the models in the target unit are in cover, then the entire unit is deemed to be in cover and all of it's models may take cover saves." He is now given a cover save because 50% of the unit he is in is in cover. Both conditions are satisfied. His cover save is coming from the fact that his unit is 50% in cover, not from the fact that he is standing in area terrain.

DeathReaper wrote:so you think the unit rules take take precedence over the MC rules? even though the MC rules clearly state that they take precedence over any other rules?

What about rules for units containing MC instead of the rules for a single model?

DeathReaper wrote:

kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper = wrong.

If anyone else wonders, the reasons are already listed.

so you think the unit rules take take precedence over the MC rules? even though the MC rules clearly state that they take precedence over any other rules?

Interesting thought process...

It seems you are the one that is wrong maybe?

Please show where the rules for determining if a unit has cover are overridden by the rules for an MC by himself.

You are the one who is wrong, and have been shown this many, many times now.

DeathReaper wrote:so you think the unit rules take take precedence over the MC rules? even though the MC rules clearly state that they take precedence over any other rules?

You're trying to over-ride the rules for determining a unit's cover save with a rule for determining whether individual models are in cover, which is why people are disagreeing.

There are two separate processes that go into determining whether or not a unit gets a cover save. You first determine how many models in the unit are in cover, and if at least half of them are, the unit gets a cover save. All that the MC rules change is how to determine whether or not the individual MC's are in cover. They have no effect on how to determine if the unit then gets a cover save.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

kirsanth wrote:DeathReaper = wrong.

If anyone else wonders, the reasons are already listed.

so you think the unit rules take take precedence over the MC rules? even though the MC rules clearly state that they take precedence over any other rules?

Interesting thought process...

It seems you are the one that is wrong maybe?

Please show where the rules for determining if a unit has cover are overridden by the rules for an MC by himself.

You are the one who is wrong, and have been shown this many, many times now.

So clearly taking precedence means nothing.

DeathReaper wrote:So clearly taking precedence means nothing.

It means something when they are relevant.

The fact is, you have two rules. One applies to the whole unit, one applies ONLY to the MC. The WHOLE UNIT gets a cover save because 50% can claim a cover save. This has the side effect of allowing the MC to get a cover save when it normally would not be able to. This is how the rules work. If you cannot understand this, I kindly suggest taking up a different game.

Gwar! wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So clearly taking precedence means nothing.

It means something when they are relevant.

The fact is, you have two rules. One applies to the whole unit, one applies ONLY to the MC. The WHOLE UNIT gets a cover save because 50% can claim a cover save. This has the side effect of allowing the MC to get a cover save when it normally would not be able to. This is how the rules work. If you cannot understand this, I kindly suggest taking up a different game.

wow gwar thanks for the backhanded remarks...

anyway, I can see how people would look at a unit and claim it works under the units rules.

I also see where the MC would have to be behind something to claim a save even if he were in a unit.

After reading the responses though, i would play it like gwar and insaniak wrote and allow him a save for 1/2 his unit being in cover.

Sure that rule takes precedence, which means it comes first.

First the HT itself claims cover if 50% obscured.

Second the cover rules allow the HT to take cover saves if (at least) 50% of the unit is in cover. This take into account whether the HT itself has cover, and yet does not stop the HT from claiming cover it is not in if (at least) 50% of its unit is in cover.

They are not actually mutually exclusive.

DeathReaper wrote:wow gwar thanks for the backhanded remarks.

You are welcome. I would be more forward, but apparently the mods don't take too kindly to the language I would use (that is, Ukrainian. Dern Communists!).

The fact of the matter is, in the short time you have been here, you have made several incorrect posts when it comes to rules questions, only to then retort with non-sensible and illogical arguments. All this does is cause confusion for those people who genuinely are not certain about how the rules work and come here seeking clarification.

Now, I understand I am not a Mod, so I cannot actually stop you doing anything. I just thought I would share my opinion.

That being said, as kirsanth pointed out, the rules are not mutually exclusive. The rules say that an MC can only claim a cover save if he is 50% obscured. That is all well and good. The unit rules now say that if 50% of the unit are obscured, they entire unit gets to benefit from the cover save.

So, we apply both rules. Take, for example, a Hive Tyrant and a single Tyrant Guard. The Hive Tyrant is an MC, the Guard is Infantry. They are standing in a peice of area terrain that grants a 4+ cover save.

The rules for MC's say "Is the Tyrant able to claim a cover save?" The answer is "No, the Tyrant itself cannot because it is not 50% obscured."
The rules for Infantry kick in and say "Is the Guard able to claim a cover save?" The answer is "Yes, because the Guard is in area terrain."
The rules for Units now kick in and say "Does 50% or more of the unit have a claim to a cover save?" The answer is "Yes, one out of two members of the unit have claim to a cover save."
The rules for Units now continues and say "Well, since 50% of the unit has claim of a cover save, the entire unit gets to benefit. Huzzah and Tally-Ho."

Another way to look at this is to imagine that all three creatures are MCs such as Carnifexes.

If the two Carnifexes in the wood get cover then the third Carnifex outside the wood gets cover as it is part of the unit.

Gwar! wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:wow gwar thanks for the backhanded remarks.

You are welcome. I would be more forward, but apparently the mods don't take too kindly to the language I would use (that is, Ukrainian. Dern Communists!).

The fact of the matter is, in the short time you have been here, you have made several incorrect posts when it comes to rules questions, only to then retort with non-sensible and illogical arguments. All this does is cause confusion for those people who genuinely are not certain about how the rules work and come here seeking clarification..."

This post is the only one where i was incorrect on, and i said "After reading the responses though, i would play it like gwar and insaniak wrote and allow him a save for 1/2 his unit being in cover."

and gwar this is you make the call, not rules by gwar, so we are entitled to our opinions, just as you are, so please refrain from the personal attacks.

Thank you.

Kilkrazy wrote:Another way to look at this is to imagine that all three creatures are MCs such as Carnifexes.

If the two Carnifexes in the wood get cover then the third Carnifex outside the wood gets cover as it is part of the unit.

yes if the two in the wood were 50% covered like a vehicle, that is correct. (same rule applies to squadrons of vehicles)

Which is why it also works when one of the members of the unit is an MC and one isnt.

DeathReaper wrote:
and gwar this is you make the call, not rules by gwar, so we are entitled to our opinions, just as you are, so please refrain from the personal attacks.

It's not opinion though. There's no opinion about this. It's black and white, rules-as-written, 100% this way with no room for interpretation. Not an opinion in sight.

"For a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of models. Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to monstrous creatures - the 50% rule take precendence."

I read this as: the tyrant (or other MC) being in area terrain as part of a unit counts towards the number of models in the unit when determining whether or not 50% of the unit is in cover. The guard can get cover saves as normal. However, "For a monstrous creature to be in cover" there are specific requirements to be met - simply being in area terrain does not suffice, and hence shooting wounds allocated to the Tyrant would not benefit from the unit cover save because the Monstrous Creature rules restrict it from receiving cover except as is explained in those rules.

Can someone please be more clear as to how this is incorrect?