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Arctik_Firangi wrote:"For a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of models. Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to monstrous creatures - the 50% rule take precendence."

I read this as: the tyrant (or other MC) being in area terrain as part of a unit counts towards the number of models in the unit when determining whether or not 50% of the unit is in cover. The guard can get cover saves as normal. However, "For a monstrous creature to be in cover" there are specific requirements to be met - simply being in area terrain does not suffice, and hence shooting wounds allocated to the Tyrant would not benefit from the unit cover save because the Monstrous Creature rules restrict it from receiving cover except as is explained in those rules.

Can someone please be more clear as to how this is incorrect?

Because the rules for units say if 50% of the unit has a cover save, everyone gets to use it. The key word here is automatically. The Tyrant can still get a cover save from the area terrain, it just cannot automatically get one.

Also:

Gwar! wrote:The rules for MC's say "Is the Tyrant able to claim a cover save?" The answer is "No, the Tyrant itself cannot because it is not 50% obscured."
The rules for Infantry kick in and say "Is the Guard able to claim a cover save?" The answer is "Yes, because the Guard is in area terrain."
The rules for Units now kick in and say "Does 50% or more of the unit have a claim to a cover save?" The answer is "Yes, one out of two members of the unit have claim to a cover save."
The rules for Units now continues and say "Well, since 50% of the unit has claim of a cover save, the entire unit gets to benefit. Huzzah and Tally-Ho."

I hadn't come across this before... I just had to read the rulebook rather than your summary and tally-ho.

The key word is not 'automatically'. It is that the first sentence says 'to be in cover', and does not refer to a cover save. You are not wrong in pointing out that the rule for units overrides this...
I amend my reading. The tyrant must claim 'cover' as per its MC rules to count towards 50% of the unit, but if the 50% condition is satisfied the Tyrant may make a cover save as granted by the rule for units in cover. Cheers.

Arctik_Firangi: you could also follow my reasoning on page 1.
The key word for monstrous creatures is on page 51: "Cover for them [monstrous creatures] works exactly as for vehicles (see page 62)"

Mahtamori wrote:Arctik_Firangi: you could also follow my reasoning on page 1.
The key word for monstrous creatures is on page 51: "Cover for them [monstrous creatures] works exactly as for vehicles (see page 62)"

Yes, and when Vehicles are in a Squadron, if 50% of the squadron has a cover save, the whole squadron benefits.

Gwar! wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Arctik_Firangi: you could also follow my reasoning on page 1.
The key word for monstrous creatures is on page 51: "Cover for them [monstrous creatures] works exactly as for vehicles (see page 62)"

Yes, and when Vehicles are in a Squadron, if 50% of the squadron has a cover save, the whole squadron benefits.

Yup, pretty much the long way to go about it, but if you follow it all in this case, you can't go wrong. Unless you took a left in Jersey.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:"For a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of its body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of models. Also, standing in area terrain does not automatically confer a cover save to monstrous creatures - the 50% rule take precendence."

I read this as: the tyrant (or other MC) being in area terrain as part of a unit counts towards the number of models in the unit when determining whether or not 50% of the unit is in cover. The guard can get cover saves as normal. However, "For a monstrous creature to be in cover" there are specific requirements to be met - simply being in area terrain does not suffice, and hence shooting wounds allocated to the Tyrant would not benefit from the unit cover save because the Monstrous Creature rules restrict it from receiving cover except as is explained in those rules.

Can someone please be more clear as to how this is incorrect?

You can't have only part of a unit recieving a cover save. It's all or none.
If half or more of a unit is in cover, the unit gets a cover save.

One Tyrant Guard in area terrain- in cover.
One Hive Tyrant in the open- not in cover.
The unit as a whole is half in cover, and so gets a cover save.

The Hive Tyrant can not be in cover but still get a cover save, just like a Space Marine squad with three guys in the open and seven hiding behind a wall. The individuals may not be in cover, but their individual cover status doesn't matter; only the unit as a whole.

Another example-
A vehicle squadron of two Sentinels. One Sentinel uses smoke launchers/is obscured/whatever. The other, exposed, Sentinel still benefits from the cover save, as half of the unit is in cover. Again, the individual model's circumstances don't matter - only the unit as a whole.

The most important point is imo, is, MCs suffer wounds not hits & as such do not need to count as being obscured to take a Cover Save.

ChrisCP wrote:The most important point is imo, is, MCs suffer wounds not hits & as such do not need to be obscured to take a Cover Save.

Huh?

Cover saves, along with ALL saves, are defined as being taken against *wounds* only.

The ONLY way a vehicle can, in the BRB, take saves againdt *hits* as if they were wounds is by being obscured (page 62, from memory...) first. While MCs behave like vehicles for determining cover as they take Wounds as normal they do not need to count as "obscured" in orde to derive any actual benefit from having a cover save.

ChrisCP wrote:The most important point is imo, is, MCs suffer wounds not hits & as such do not need to be obscured to take a Cover Save.

Everything needs to be obscured in order to take a cover save, unless a specific rule grants a cover save otherwise.

The difference with vehicles and MC's isn't that they have to be obscured (because everything else does as well), it's when they count as being obscured.

*Shrug* Edited it for clarity then.