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Special Rule: Tank Desant

Applies to all variations of the Leman Russ.

Up to 12 models may choose to clamber up the sides of a Leman Russ in order to ride it into battle, before leaping off to join the assault. While carrying any models performing a Tank Desant, the Leman Russ counts as an open topped transport (without the +1 to the damage table). However, do to the exposed nature atop the Leman Russ, the infantry riding it may be targeted separately from the Leman Russ.

You're going to have to factor a cost increase into the tank. A leman russ that can transport 12 infantry should be more expensive.

What if I make it so that the infantry have to take a difficult terrain test getting on and off? Would that make it easier? That and how many points should it be? I'm guessing....5? Maybe 10?

I'd say make the passengers take a dangerous terrain test to get on (if it fails they don't get on and one dies) When getting off they must roll 2d6, on a 8 or higher they get off normally. if below they lose another model and may not shoot or assault that turn.

make the upgrade 15 pts

bucketwalrus wrote:I'd say make the passengers take a dangerous terrain test to get on (if it fails they don't get on and one dies) When getting off they must roll 2d6, on a 8 or higher they get off normally. if below they lose another model and may not shoot or assault that turn.

make the upgrade 15 pts

That seems a bit....harsh to say the least. I think a basic dangerous terrain test embarking and disembarking is quite enough, and combined with being able to hit the unit while embarked, and a 10 point upgrade, I personally think of it as fair.

I would say that they need to roll difficult terrain tests for embarking and disembarking, always count as moving even when the vehicle hasn't, and all hits the vehicle takes are also counted against the passengers.

I don't know about a lot of this. So the vehicle counts as open topped, what about also adding that it loses lumbering behemoth as firing all those weapons puts considerable risk to the troops riding on top. dangerous tests for getting off? what are these guardsmen, special ed? difficult terrain maybe for assaulting after dismounting off but dangerous is overkill.

i'd say ability to hit tank and guardmen with templates, ability to target guardsmen, losing lumbering behemoth well passengers are embarked, and open topped for 10pts is pretty fair. If thats not enough then maybe add a difficult terrain test if assaulting immediately after dissembarking.

Well, lumbering behemoth is a rule that really makes a Leman Russ a Leman Russ, and thus I'll keep it. It's possible to fire the gun while infantry ride the tank....it's just a wee bit loud, and thus a tad annoying. [/understatement]

Hmm, I like this idea of anything that hits the tank also hits the Guardsmen. That works out quite well. And the dangerous terrain tests are there to show the dangers of riding around on a tank...the 40k system doesn't really give me a better way to do that fairly other than difficult terrain tests. Remember, a unit that takes a wound isn't 'dead' necessarily, just out of the fight. So a Guardsmen failing a difficult terrain test here could easily be him getting burned badly by exhaust, breaking a leg clambering down or off, or any other such thing.

So how about now for this upgrade/special rule?

Handholds: 10 pts

Allows infantry to clamber up the side of the tank, to ride it into assault. Grants the Tank Desant special rule.

Tank Desant

Guardsmen clamber up the side of a Leman Russ in order to ride the mighty steed into battle, thus allowing them to enter the assault faster. However, this technique is as dangerous as it is useful, and the Guardsmen are completely exposed to enemy fire while atop the Leman Russ.

Any Leman Russ with the Handholds upgrade may carry up to 12 infantry models (can not carry Ogryns or Allied terminators), counting as an open topped transport except for the +1 on the damage table. Additionally, as the Guardsmen are exposed on the rear of the Leman Russ, they may both be singled out in shooting, and are also hit by any attacks aimed at the Leman Russ. While embarking and disembarking from the Leman Russ, all infantry must take a dangerous terrain test as standard. If the infantry are forced to take a morale test (by taking 25% casualties or anything similar) they instead take a pinning test. If failed, they can not shoot, nor disembark from the Leman Russ in the owning players turn.

Additionally, if the Leman Russ moves and shoots while carrying infantry, it may only fire any ONE weapon. E.g. A Leman Russ Battle Tank carrying infantry that moves 6" would be able to fire its battlecannon OR its heavy bolter, but not both.

What about combat? If i say... charged the tank?
All hits against the tank also hit the IG... do the IG strike back?
what if they fall back (from shooting or otherwise)? are they fearless on the tank?

See its not bad, until the dangerous terrain test... If they were atop of something that was 15 -20 feet tall maybe, but the leman russ isnt that tall, nor is it difficult to dismount from a moving vehicle. see previous statement on that. Also, ok lumbering behemoth makes a leman russ a leman russ. But your talking about giving it transport. Taking away the ability tof ire all weapons when moving is a better way to balance then to make it so that all guardsmen have to make a dangerous test for what apparently is a preexisting case of brain damage making them incapable of rolling from a vehicle..

Also you have never been near a tank firing if you think its "a tad annoying". a 120mm will leave most people completely disoriented for a couple of seconds. So heres anothere option, ok they keep there ability to fire all guns and it open topped, no assault. without one or the other this unit is left either ridiculous or OP.

For all intents in purposes the Guardsmen are riding in an opentop vehicle so going down your list...

1. No
2. They can shoot back if they wish.
3. Good point....I'll add a thing about that. Make it so that if they are knocked below half strength on the transport, they take a pinning test instead of a morale test?

Draggoon: Hmmmm....yeah. I suppose that's true. Maybe alter Lumbering Behemoth so it can only fire one weapon period (including its turret one) ? And like I said, it's not that they die from hopping on or off, it's that they slip and fall and get left behind, or get severely burned by the exhaust (or are disoriented by the main cannon firing. ) Lots of things that justify a difficult terrain test other than tripping over a rock and dying.

Thats better, as since trust me, having a load of weaponry going off even from the command hatch on a LAV can be overwhelming when you have a 7.62 over your head and also a 25mm gun going at the same time. IF its just the one then its not so bad, you can duck your head to avoid some of the reverb or you can be at least more ready for it, IF your applying this on leman russes oyu need to remember they could be running things like 3x las cannon lrbt or 3x plasma executioners. These would be ridiculous if they could continuosly fire all weapons and move up with troops.

Alright then. Out of curisosity, do you have personal experience with this? It certainly sounds like you do.

3x Las LRBT? I've never heard of that...the closest I've seen is the Leman Russ Annihilator, and that's Forge World special rules and all that. I didn't think you could take lascannon sponsons.....

But yes. RUles edited appropriately.

LOVE THE IDEA! I think all tanks should have this, it reminds me of the Halo Scorpions! 5 points for 5 men, 20 points for 10, 25 points for 12

ChrisWWII wrote:Alright then. Out of curisosity, do you have personal experience with this? It certainly sounds like you do.

3x Las LRBT? I've never heard of that...the closest I've seen is the Leman Russ Annihilator, and that's Forge World special rules and all that. I didn't think you could take lascannon sponsons.....

But yes. RUles edited appropriately.

The wonderful wide world of commanding infantry gives you experience in many things... lol

Ahhh alright then. Thanks for sharing.

I don't know if real life deserves a place in a fluff discussion, but since we're supposed to be pretending and imagining, why not make it a bit realistic?

1. Infantry catching a ride on a tank is fine; happens in real life all the time.

2. At the first sign of combat, the infantry jump off. Both with the old tanks and the M1 line, men getting their legs or arms crushed underneath a rotating turret is generally bad news. And it *is* an 8-9 foot jump, depending on if you're on the turret or what.

3. 12 guys is pushing it. You can't fit anyone under the barrel. You can't put anyone on the treads. If you have armor plates on the treads, you're going to be able to put some guys up there....but maybe 3-4 a side with gear, and that's precarious (I'm talking about my real life experience at this point). The engine compartment is burning at several thousand degrees, so no one is going in the back.
-------------------------

With those notes in mind, I'd suggest the following themes for realism.

A LMBT can hold 10 models (yes, you may need a Leman Russ formation to hold a full unit). While models are hitching a ride, the LMBT may not fire. When disembarking, models take a dangerous terrain test (to represent the jump down).

I'm also tempted to say that realism demands that the Leman Russ cannot fire the turn models disembark.

Thanks, always good to here input from those with real world experience (even though 40k says to hell with sense! Rule of cool ftw!)

But yes...Dropping down to 10 models agreed, as that's a standard infantry squad. But, I almost feel that saying it can't fire is making it underpowered a bit....I mean, who'd trade a battle cannon shot for carrying a squad a few inches forward, and not even really protecting that squad that much. It may not be as realistic, but I'd like to say that firing one weapon seems fair while not getting too insane. Hmm...instead of not firing how about it can't move the turn the squad disembarks? Cause I could see troops hopping off and the tank firing at the same time, but it seems to me like they'd be more loathe to move out of not wanting to crush their own guys.

Of course I'm just an 18 year old kid with no military experience so I could just be spewing nonsense right now.

Why not make the penalty, that every time the Leman Russ is hit, that generates a single Dangerous Terrain test, and if the tank is penetrated, everyone in the squad takes a Str 4 hit.

I think that if you made the following changes it could work.

1: Embarking/disembarking requires a single dangerous terrain test (roll 1D6 for the entire squad, one member is removed on a 1)

2: Any shot hitting the vehicle will also cause a wound on the squad on a 4+/5+ (depending on what would work best)

Hmmm, yeah that seems the most fair and balanced considering this is a 10 point upgrade. Alright, rule as stands is as follows.

Handholds: 10 pts

Allows infantry to clamber up the side of the tank, to ride it into assault. Grants the Tank Desant special rule.

Tank Desant

Guardsmen clamber up the side of a Leman Russ in order to ride the mighty steed into battle, thus allowing them to enter the assault faster. However, this technique is as dangerous as it is useful, and the Guardsmen are completely exposed to enemy fire while atop the Leman Russ.

Any Leman Russ with the Handholds upgrade may carry up to 12 infantry models (can not carry Ogryns or Allied terminators), counting as an open topped transport except for the +1 on the damage table. Additionally, as the Guardsmen are exposed on the rear of the Leman Russ, any shot that hits the Leman Russ will also roll to wound the infantry squad riding on the back. A blast template will count as hitting half the squad (rounding up) if it the center is on target, and a quarter (once again rounding up) of the squad if it is not. While embarking and disembarking from the Leman Russ, roll a d6. On a roll of a 1, the squad takes a wound as if one model has failed a difficult terrain test.

Additionally, if the Leman Russ moves and shoots while carrying infantry, it may only fire any ONE weapon. E.g. A Leman Russ Battle Tank carrying infantry that moves 6" would be able to fire its battlecannon OR its heavy bolter, but not both.

Transport Capacity od 12 makes sense to me, since some guardsmen would no doubt just hot on to the railings whilst hanging off the side... maybe limit the number of Guardsmen that can shoot while mounted? Plus, Targeting Seprately AND all shots hitting the Tank auto hit the troops is dumb (sorry) One or the other. Blast weaps hitting half is.... meh... maybe differentiate between large and small blast templates?

Hi all.
I would like to have a go at revising this a bit .(Its a cool idea!)

Upgrade
Handrails 15pts.

A tank equiped with hand rails can transport 1 standard infantry unit with up to 10 models.

The infantry unit has to make a dangerous terrain test when boarding the tank.A failed test results in 1 caualty being removed from the boarding infantry unit.

While mounted on the tank the infantry can NOT make any ranged attacks.(They are too busy haning on!)

IF the tank fires any turret mounted or ordnance weapons while carrying infantry,the mounted infantry unit has to make a Difficult Terrain Test.
Iif failed the unit suffers a casualty and is forced to dismount.

If the tank is assaulted while carrying infatry , the infantry will automaticaly dismount and intercept the assault before it gets tothe tank.(The attacker has to assault the infantry first.)

If the tank takes a Glancing hit while carrying infantry , the infantry count as 'going to ground' and can NOT dis mount volentairily.(But may be force to dismount due to other conditions.)

If the tank takes a penetrating hit while carrrying infantry , the infantry automaticaly dismount and count as going to ground.
ANY none damaging hit on the vehicle damge table (result of 2 or less).Causes 1 casualty from the infantry unit that just dismounted.
Any damageing hit on the vehilce damge table,(result of 3 or more).Causes 2 casualties from the infantry unit that just dis mounted.


TTFN

IF the tank fires any turret mounted or ordnance weapons while carrying infantry,the mounted infantry unit has to make a Difficult Terrain Test.
Iif failed the unit suffers a casualty and is forced to dismount.

Huh?



Oh, and in my opinion, I don't think troops should randomly get off the tank because its shot at...

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I would like to have a go at revising this a bit .(Its a cool idea!)

Upgrade
Handrails 15pts.

A tank equiped with hand rails can transport 1 standard infantry unit with up to 10 models.

The infantry unit has to make a dangerous terrain test when boarding the tank.A failed test results in 1 caualty being removed from the boarding infantry unit.

While mounted on the tank the infantry can NOT make any ranged attacks.(They are too busy haning on!)

IF the tank fires any turret mounted or ordnance weapons while carrying infantry,the mounted infantry unit has to make a Difficult Terrain Test.
Iif failed the unit suffers a casualty and is forced to dismount.

If the tank is assaulted while carrying infatry , the infantry will automaticaly dismount and intercept the assault before it gets tothe tank.(The attacker has to assault the infantry first.)

If the tank takes a Glancing hit while carrying infantry , the infantry count as 'going to ground' and can NOT dis mount volentairily.(But may be force to dismount due to other conditions.)

If the tank takes a penetrating hit while carrrying infantry , the infantry automaticaly dismount and count as going to ground.
ANY none damaging hit on the vehicle damge table (result of 2 or less).Causes 1 casualty from the infantry unit that just dismounted.
Any damageing hit on the vehilce damge table,(result of 3 or more).Causes 2 casualties from the infantry unit that just dis mounted.


TTFN

a) Why does this dangerous terrain test thing keep coming up? These are people who have been walking, running and jumping for at least 18 years. There should not be any test to get on (let's assume the tank slowed down enough for the squad to get on without a hitch) and there should only be a difficult terrain test to get off. The squad cannot assault after getting off, but are able to shoot.

b) If the tank takes a glancing hit, the infantry dismount automatically and go to ground, taking their difficult terrain test. Why stay on something getting shot at when it's simply a substitute for walking and doesn't offer much more protection?

grayspark wrote:

IF the tank fires any turret mounted or ordnance weapons while carrying infantry,the mounted infantry unit has to make a Difficult Terrain Test.
Iif failed the unit suffers a casualty and is forced to dismount.

Huh?



Oh, and in my opinion, I don't think troops should randomly get off the tank because its shot at...

a) Yeah, I don't know what the point of that rule is either. It should simply be scrapped. There's already a part of the rule that the OP suggested that meant only one gun could be fired per turn with riders upon it.

b) A hypothetical machine gun emplacement opens up on the tank and those riding on it. Now, we've already determined that the troops wouldn't be riding behind the turret or in front of it, so the sides leave them completely unprotected. Would they just sit there as they're fired at? Personally I'd much rather walk then continue to ride on a tank that has already been made a target.

Rico...

I'm sorry, but who in their right mind would use this?!? Your sacrificing shooting power for an extra d6 of assault range?!? And you can kill yourself in the process?!? With Lumbering Behemoth this rule is rendered useless! You get an extra 1" in the worst scenerio.



However...... If you retooled this for the Hellhound (like the fluff drawing of the Hellhound in the last codex where there are outriders) then sure I buy it. The Fast vehicle makes all the difference.

I've got a suggestion here. In the olden days of 40k the Ork Trukks and Battlewagons had a rule where they could carry as many models as you could physically stuff in them. Then, when you moved them, if one or more fell off then they counted as getting a hit. I'd do the same thing. You can take as many models as you can sit on the model, and they have to remain on it when you move it.

Simple and also hilarious!

The Odessey wrote:I'm sorry, but who in their right mind would use this?!? Your sacrificing shooting power for an extra d6 of assault range?!? And you can kill yourself in the process?!? With Lumbering Behemoth this rule is rendered useless! You get an extra 1" in the worst scenerio.

In a sense it's an option that allows more squads to be moved up with the tanks instead of having them ride along. More importantly, it's fluffy! It's one of those things where you say 'wouldn't it be cool if...' do i expect tournaments to use it? no. do i want to use it to have fun? yep!

I'm with Odessey on this. Some of the downsides people are suggesting are excessive.

If it was me:

Handholds - 5 points

- Mounted infantry always count as moving, due to the precarious position.
- The tank can fire as normal, but firing an ordinance weapon KOs 1d3 mounted infantry.
- Single target attacks get one hit on the Russ and one on the infantry squad. Template/blast attacks hit both normally.
- Enemy melee attacks against a moving, modified Russ get +1 to hit: 3+ if it moves at Combat speed, 5+ if moving at Cruising speed.

Jihadnik wrote:I've got a suggestion here. In the olden days of 40k the Ork Trukks and Battlewagons had a rule where they could carry as many models as you could physically stuff in them. Then, when you moved them, if one or more fell off then they counted as getting a hit. I'd do the same thing. You can take as many models as you can sit on the model, and they have to remain on it when you move it.

Simple and also hilarious!

I MAY just run that! It sounds quite fun, actually.....

But in more seriousness, Rico.

a1) The dangerous terrain test while getting off is to represent all the hundreds of different ways to hurt yourself while riding a tank. It's not just 'they die cause they jumped off'. It's also, 'they tripped and broke a leg', 'they got burned on the exhaust panel' 'they fell off at some random point'. All these things are represented with that dangerous terrain test.

b1)That could be an interesting rule...I like that.

a2) Yeah....I don't like that rule either. I may be reposting up a new rule soon, but so far I like the current edition of t hem.

b2) Yep. I think that's the one thing I may add instead of inflicting wounds on the infantry men.

Edit: Rules as of now.

Handholds: 5 pts

Allows infantry to clamber up the side of the tank, to ride it into assault. Grants the Tank Desant special rule.

Tank Desant

Guardsmen clamber up the side of a Leman Russ in order to ride the mighty steed into battle, thus allowing them to enter the assault faster. However, this technique is as dangerous as it is useful, and the Guardsmen are completely exposed to enemy fire while atop the Leman Russ.

Any Leman Russ with the Handholds upgrade may carry up to 12 infantry models (can not carry Ogryns or Allied terminators), counting as an open topped transport except for the +1 on the damage table. Additionally, as the Guardsmen are exposed on the rear of the Leman Russ, any shot that damages the Leman Russ will force the infantry to disembark and take a pinning test. While embarking and disembarking from the Leman Russ, roll a d6. On a roll of a 1, the squad takes a wound as if one model has failed a difficult terrain test.

Additionally, if the Leman Russ moves and shoots while carrying infantry, it may only fire any ONE weapon. E.g. A Leman Russ Battle Tank carrying infantry that moves 6" would be able to fire its battlecannon OR its heavy bolter, but not both.