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I find the current trend of taking 4xML's at tournaments to be quite interesting. Yes its cheap and yes they are very effective against infantry and the medium, light armoured vehicles but against Heavy Armour (ARMOUR values 12, 13, 14) it just doesn't cut it.
I saw a recent 1750pt tourney where a space wolf player had 5 x Longfang ML in a 6man squad and they were fragging everything. Then on his 3rd game blam...IG tanks, against a LMR Executioner? (the one with Twin Autocannosn) they all bounced off, against the Demolisher he managed a glance and the other Leman Russ he penetrated and weapon destroyed over nearly 5 turns. Every round he fired 5xML's so 25 Krak Missiles over 5 turns, needing a 6 to glance against Armour 14 well, the best you can hope for is that he won't be able to fire next round!

I cannot help thinking if he had taken a LC (And Long Fangs get them well cheap!) or two he would have had a more balanced army.........

mwnciboo wrote:I find the current trend of taking 4xML's at tournaments to be quite interesting. Yes its cheap and yes they are very effective against infantry and the medium, light armoured vehicles but against Heavy Armour (ARMOUR values 12, 13, 14) it just doesn't cut it.
I saw a recent 1750pt tourney where a space wolf player had 5 x Longfang ML in a 6man squad and they were fragging everything. Then on his 3rd game blam...IG tanks, against a LMR Executioner? (the one with Twin Autocannosn) they all bounced off, against the Demolisher he managed a glance and the other Leman Russ he penetrated and weapon destroyed over nearly 5 turns. Every round he fired 5xML's so 25 Krak Missiles over 5 turns, needing a 6 to glance against Armour 14 well, the best you can hope for is that he won't be able to fire next round!

I cannot help thinking if he had taken a LC (And Long Fangs get them well cheap!) or two he would have had a more balanced army.........

I generally use MLs to crack open transports and to punish the opponent for his MEQs out of cover. Also, good against MCs. They are not cheap, just relatively cheap.

A krak missile has the following chances to effect / destroy a target based on the AV
AV 11 Effected : 44.54% Destroyed : 10.79%%
AV 12 Effected : 33.26% Destroyed : 7.24%
AV 13 Effected : 22.41% Destroyed : 3.67%
AV 14 Effected : 11.12% Destroyed : 0%

When you have 5 of them, they are reasonably effective against AV 11 and 12. When shooting at heavier targets, the odds of destroying are very small. To destroy AV 13 and 14, melta weapons are the solution.

Sometimes destruction of the vehicle is not the objective. Usually I will shoot at a 'Russ and once it is shaken Ill quit firing at it. My goal is to just keep it from shooting me. When that is the target goal, even ML are good.

labmouse42 wrote:
When you have 5 of them, they are reasonably effective against AV 11 and 12. When shooting at heavier targets, the odds of destroying are very small. To destroy AV 13 and 14, melta weapons are the solution.

Sometimes destruction of the vehicle is not the objective. Usually I will shoot at a 'Russ and once it is shaken Ill quit firing at it. My goal is to just keep it from shooting me. When that is the target goal, even ML are good.

I think this post sums it up nicely.

S8 is enough to kill AV12 or less reliably, which means almost every transport in the game.
Its enough to shutdown AV13, which accounts for many of the shooty battle tanks in the game like Predators and Hammerheads. Against AV14 its better then nothing since it can hurt it in theory but even Lascannons fail at AV14 unless they're spammed (which is something only IG can in a cost effective way). If you need AV14 destroyed, its either Melta or S10 ordnance weapons.


EDIT: Really the only weapon better then the Missile Launcher at cheap long range firepower is the Autocannon. It outperforms the Missile Launcher against all the low AVs and is equally effective at shutting down AV13.

Lascannons are the money...especially with Long Fangs who can shoot separately...I would run 3 Las, 2 Missile though...for horde variability.

AP 3 Missile though...got to thank FnP (which everyone seems to be getting lately) for that save...And terminators won't shrug off a lascannon to the face either.

ductvader wrote:Lascannons are the money...especially with Long Fangs who can shoot separately...I would run 3 Las, 2 Missile though...for horde variability.

I think this is only true for Long Fangs, for other Marines, Lascannons are too expensive to be used in most situation.

AP 3 Missile though...got to thank FnP (which everyone seems to be getting lately) for that save...And terminators won't shrug off a lascannon to the face either.

True but Power Fists, Melta and Plasma all solve the FnP issue.

I'm not knocking Lascannons, they are a great weapon if you can get them on the cheap. Best way for non-SW Loyalists to do that is with Combi-Predators in my opinion.

I was under the impression that you logan grimnar->tankhunter your long fangs to make them super effective.

minigun762 wrote:I'm not knocking Lascannons, they are a great weapon if you can get them on the cheap. Best way for non-SW Loyalists to do that is with Combi-Predators in my opinion.

ie: Imperial guard heavy weapon teams

ductvader wrote:Lascannons are the money...especially with Long Fangs who can shoot separately...I would run 3 Las, 2 Missile though...for horde variability.

AP 3 Missile though...got to thank FnP (which everyone seems to be getting lately) for that save...And terminators won't shrug off a lascannon to the face either.

Assuming that you were running T4 marines, dont krak missiles ignore FnP bec its S is double the T?

Yuber wrote:

ductvader wrote:Lascannons are the money...especially with Long Fangs who can shoot separately...I would run 3 Las, 2 Missile though...for horde variability.

AP 3 Missile though...got to thank FnP (which everyone seems to be getting lately) for that save...And terminators won't shrug off a lascannon to the face either.

Assuming that you were running T4 marines, dont krak missiles ignore FnP bec its S is double the T?

Yup, sorry...I was personally referring to MCs that I use all too often.

I was quite shocked when I compared the SM Codex with the SW Codex.

SW Longfang 15pts per model (max 6 models)+ 25pts for a LC!

SM Devastator (90pts for a squad of 5) + 35pts for a LC!

Thats nothing though, the bloody Wolf Scouts can have special weapons power weapons and plasma pistols and count as Elites! (though they cannot have free sniper rifles)

No wonder every tom, cock and harry play SW....

Hey now, BA Devastators get 25 point Lascannons as well!

But why would you arm them with anything other than 4 ML is silly.

Right, missile launchers aren't anti-tank weapons (with the exception of AV10). People who think they are are getting it wrong.

Missile launchers are really just long-ranged flamethrowers, being able to damage clustered up light infantry. It doesn't ignore cover, but it has, what 8x range?

That and it has the ability to switch from flamer mode to a mode that instakills T4 baddies and can put wounds on MCs.

As for lascannons, meh. They gain the ability to be slightly less worse against armor and the ability to snipe terminators at the cost of their ability to handle infantry (and a pretty serious cost hike most of the time).

But why would you arm them with anything other than 4 ML is silly.

Because if someone rocks up with Armour 14 Imperial Guard tanks hes gonna battlecannon your ass to the stratosphere whilst you pray for a glancing hit!

That's also true of lascannons.

It's actually the problem with devestators in general. They use infantry heavy weapons, which are terrible, generally speaking. As such, since they exist for the firepower, and their firepower is ho-hum, then why bother taking them at all?

I guess it makes sense for space puppies, given how cheap they are. Taking a unit to somewhat inconvenience transport armies and take down TMCs is arguably worth it for the cost.

For everyone else... meh.

mwnciboo wrote:Because if someone rocks up with Armour 14 Imperial Guard tanks hes gonna battlecannon your ass to the stratosphere whilst you pray for a glancing hit!

Your correct if the assumption is that the SW player has not taken anything to handle AV 14. 4 ML's are great vs AV 10-12, MC, bikes, and MEQ in the open. They are not tools to take down AV14.

Taking 4 ML in a dev squad is great at what it does. Its like getting a screwdriver.
Saying how they are not great vs AV 14 is like saying how your screwdriver is not good at hammering in nails.

minigun762 wrote:
EDIT: Really the only weapon better then the Missile Launcher at cheap long range firepower is the Autocannon. It outperforms the Missile Launcher against all the low AVs and is equally effective at shutting down AV13.

QFT +1

The Twin - Twin linked Dread (aka The Rifleman) is probably my favourite unit of the minute. Pop'n and lock'n fools.
Enemies of the Imperium standby for a one way Autocannon transmission!

Aiglios On the LC issue, I disagree that LC are meh..A LC has 1/3 chance of a glance or Penetration. That is much better than 1/6 chance of a glance only. I agree about Melta's and bombs but my post is about how 4xML is not a wise move as people labour under the misapprehension that it is Anti-armour (Something you and I agree on!).
I personally would have taken 2 LC 3ML's for SW. For SM I would take, 1LC,1PC, 2ML (points galore unfortunately but it works for me often enough)

Labmouse42, thats not an accurate assessment. The wolves will no doubt have lots of things to kill armour 14, however they will not be able to get to grips with the armour straight away. Battlecannons say a big No-No to Armour Saves so Marines become cannon fodder, the best scenario would be a SW scout squad with a Melta gun start near the armour. 2nd no imperial guard player fields single tanks, so figure minimum 2 BC blast per turn for 2 turns before anyone locks them in hand to hand, thats 4 MINIMUM. Bottomline with Marines use the higher than average BS, and the Heavy Weapons such as LC with Str 9 AP 2 yes it is expensive but there is really nothing better for popping heavy armour at range. Well maybe another Battlecannon or a titan weapon.

OMG! I am stupid....Sternguard 2 x LC at 15pts each so 125pts +30pts. 155pts + bolters that fire all that crazy Ammon. Thats got to be the solution surely?

mwnciboo wrote:I find the current trend of taking 4xML's at tournaments to be quite interesting. Yes its cheap and yes they are very effective against infantry and the medium, light armoured vehicles but against Heavy Armour (ARMOUR values 12, 13, 14) it just doesn't cut it.

The problem is not that krak missiles are ineffective against AR12+. The problem is that long-ranged shooting is not effective against AR12+.

The 5th edition vehicle damage tables and cover rules mean that long-ranged shots with only 1d6 penetration in general have only a small chance of damaging/destroying anything heavier than a rhino. Lascannons are only marginally better than missiles in this role (i.e. not effective either) and are much more expensive.

The 5th edition rule of thumb is this: missiles for AR11 or less, melta for AR12+

As an aside, typhoon missile launchers are cheaper and more mobile than dev/fang missiles. Also they can maneuver for side shots against, for example, chimera-chassis vehicles where the static shooters are stuck shooting at the front.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
The 5th edition rule of thumb is this: missiles for AR11 or less, melta for AR12+

I agree with this in regard to destroying the target vehicle, but often stopping it from shooting is enough in which case those missiles are viable for a wider range of targets.

mwnciboo wrote:The Twin - Twin linked Dread (aka The Rifleman) is probably my favourite unit of the minute.

This model performs amazingly well, and I always field one with my marines.

mwnciboo wrote:Labmouse42, thats not an accurate assessment. The wolves will no doubt have lots of things to kill armour 14, however they will not be able to get to grips with the armour straight away. Battlecannons say a big No-No to Armour Saves so Marines become cannon fodder, the best scenario would be a SW scout squad with a Melta gun start near the armour. 2nd no imperial guard player fields single tanks, so figure minimum 2 BC blast per turn for 2 turns before anyone locks them in hand to hand, thats 4 MINIMUM. Bottomline with Marines use the higher than average BS, and the Heavy Weapons such as LC with Str 9 AP 2 yes it is expensive but there is really nothing better for popping heavy armour at range. Well maybe another Battlecannon or a titan weapon.?

Here are my thoughts
* There is very little that can deal with AV 14 at long range. Railguns come to mind. IG LC spam is another. No marines have.

* Marines do not become cannon fodder to the 'Russ squad. 3 MM attack bikes can turbo boost into attack range. If the IG player squadded their 'Russ', then they will get popped before they can destroy the bikes. 3++ turbo boost FTW.
Marines also have drop podding dreads, Speeders, etc. They can take down 'Russ in ways other than just rushing a TAC squad and shooting a melta gun.

I guess the cruz of our difference is the idea if LCs are good against AV 14. They are adequate against it, but not a real good tool to take down AV 14, IMHO. Melta weapons are the best for that job. In this sense we can agree to disagree.

If your question was 'why use ML instead of LC in dev squads', I think the reason would be that its cheaper.

Do you know what? this is one of the most adult open honest and informative threads i've seen for ages thanks everyone. I'm starting to feel the argument that 5th Edition is all about Vehicles.
Labmouse, On the attack bikes the 3+ coversave when turbo boosting is a good call, but they cannot fire until next turn, so they would have to survive a hail of fire. That said its a good tactic and is now filed away in my head for a future battle! Your quite right about the LC spam of IG. When i think back the only time I have ever killed a superheavy vehicle was Macharius Vulcanmega bolter and that was PF Scout Sergeant with a Melta bomb so I'd agree CC is the way to kill tanks.

I agree with your assertion that Melta's are the way forward but for DEV's they are a no go. (unless a tank does a 12" Driveby of Multi-melta Marine in a Dev Squad which is about as likely as dividing by zero and opening a singularity). I wish Multi-Melta's could be Assault not Heavy!

So maybe my LC premise was only marginly better than 4xML, fair enough. My own personal tactic is to use 3 x Landspeeders with MM to Turboboost AR10 all round and the turboboosting save, or a CC scout squad in LSS.

mwnciboo wrote:I find the current trend of taking 4xML's at tournaments to be quite interesting. Yes its cheap and yes they are very effective against infantry and the medium, light armoured vehicles but against Heavy Armour (ARMOUR values 12, 13, 14) it just doesn't cut it.
I saw a recent 1750pt tourney where a space wolf player had 5 x Longfang ML in a 6man squad and they were fragging everything. Then on his 3rd game blam...IG tanks, against a LMR Executioner? (the one with Twin Autocannosn) they all bounced off, against the Demolisher he managed a glance and the other Leman Russ he penetrated and weapon destroyed over nearly 5 turns. Every round he fired 5xML's so 25 Krak Missiles over 5 turns, needing a 6 to glance against Armour 14 well, the best you can hope for is that he won't be able to fire next round!

I cannot help thinking if he had taken a LC (And Long Fangs get them well cheap!) or two he would have had a more balanced army.........

The idea is that you've got meltaguns that will (hopefully) make it close enough to handle the AV14 stuff. Of all the AV14 stuff, a significant portion (Land Raiders) is going to try to get close to you, which makes your meltajob a lot easier.

That much we've already established from the other posts.

I guess the point is that your antitank should be well rounded, and split between S8-9 long range fire, and S8 melta or S10 close range fire.

You need to use things like auto-cannons and missile launchers to pop transports early so that your opponent has nothing to support his av14 with. If you have melta guns hes going to be more reluctant to speed his land-raiders and leman russes forward all by their lonesome if his chimeras/razors/rihnos are all shaken/immobilized/explodified since you can then focus your whole army on the and hand full of av14 vehicles that try to get in your face.

The reverse happens against hoards as you can snipe the MC's with those same weapons from afar making your opponent be reluctant to send waves of weak troops up without any MC support.

The funny thing about Lascannons is that they are actually meh in paper. But in actual combat you will be more than happy to bring a few to deal with those AV13 from far away that ML just cant deal with: and the issue here is not about killing Av13, its about being a soft counter to AV13, which is more than enough.

For instance, you can stun or shake Av13 armor with your lascannons for turn while those melta wielding assets can get in range to them.

The nice thing about long fangs is how cheap they are.

For 190 points, you can have a 4x ML long fang unit, and a razorback with TL plasma and a lascannon. What do you do with a no fire point transport? Use it as cover, and hop in if an assault unit comes too close.

Space marine devs? 225 for the same thing, without the ability to split fire or counter attack.

So the cheapness of the long fangs means that the difference in price is essentially the cost of the upgraded weapon on the razorback. Seems like a powerful incentive to run long fangs. You get more firepower of a certain type than C:SM does.

I personally would run them 2x missile launchers in a rhino bunker. Comes to 100 points and in a pinch still split fire. Then I would spam 150 point grey hunter squads in las/plas razors.

If you don't think Missile Launchers can handle mech armies, you are way, way, way off base.

That said, I am not trying to put anyone down here or come off as condescending so please don't take it that way. I have played against and with missile spam armies in a lot of tournaments and they are the best build in the game right now, IMO. A properly built Wolf army shoots IG of any type right off the board in most encounters.

ML's are nothing new though, they were the best choice for Dev squads in 4th ed, too. Long fangs have very simply made more people realize how good the squads are and so now we see them all over the place.

They key with ML's is to take LOTS of them.

No, they are not just long range flame throwers either. Their frag templates are money, but the real key to the ML's popularity is versatility.

They kill MC's apart from the 2+ save variety, although in 5th ed, those are really rare compared to 4th when they were the more common type.

Missiles instakill tough 4 characters and ignore tough 4 FNP, which is the most common type

They shred light and medium tanks, and are useful even against heavy tanks.

They are good against light and heavy infantry, if they are in cover or out of cover.

Nothing even compares to the all around versatility of the ML. No matter who you play, the ML is a good tool.

Even against a 3 to 5 LR list, or Leman Russ heavy IG list, you are still fine with Missile Spam. I know because I have seen it and played on both ends of it many times.

For example, my wolves have 21 missile launchers that can fire at 9 different targets. I don't care who I play, that is going to beat the crap out of anyone. I don't care what you bring, at the least you won't be shooting back at me.

It's not always about destroying a target. Eliminating the ability to hit back is often just as good. If you stun or shake all of your opponents vehicles, then great, you just get another turn to try your luck on the damage table yet again next turn while taking minimal casualties in return.

You compliment the missile spam with las cannons and meltas to taste. That way you threaten all targets at range. The missiles are your work horse though. The las are for targeting the higher AV units and 2+ save MC's and heavy infantry. The meltas are your threat if the big boys come close.

Las cannons go better in individual units so they can each shoot at different targets. You are wasting them in Long Fangs packs as they then become less points efficient. Combat squad marines, dreadnoughts, predators, razorbacks, etc. are where you las cannons are best utilized. If you kill your target with one las cannon shot, you don't want to waste the rest of them on the same target.

Dev squads should pretty much always be geared up for flak fire where shooting all the weapons at the same target is a benefit, not a set back.

There is a reason why Missile Spam wolves kick so much ass right now...and the name has a really big clue as to what that reason is. Missiles. Spam. They are just fantastic.

@notabot187
Why would you not take 5 missiles in the squad? They are so cheap it's practically criminal not to max them out.

I also prefer the twin las cannon to the las/plas that is so popular right now. In my experience you only ever fire one of the two guns and that is usually the las. I would rather have the increased accuracy.

I have played the las/plas razorback spam lists in tournaments many times and have always found the twin las or twin assault cannon to be the better choice. I take half twin las and half twin a.cannon every time right now. I have never lost to these types of lists either and have always been unimpressed with how they perform. I'm not saying they're bad at all, just not the optimal choice.

As Depeche Mode said, "Everything counts in large amounts." Missile spam handles mech very well, as Reecius says. I'm not as confident in the ability to handle AV14, but he's played it and I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

yeah, a list with 8-10 missiles is going to struggle heavily against AV14.

Exactly, but when you have 20+ statistics are your ally. I have 21, on average hit with 14, glance av 14 with 2, and have about 2/3 chance of destroying a weapon or immobilizing it. Definitely stop it from shooting.

It's the death of a thousand cuts for sure, but I have seen it on the table top many times. Hulksmash beat a land raider army at the Broadside bash with his missile wolves. Took 6 turns, but he destroyed them. Thing is, they aren't shooting back at you, so it's just a matter of time till they're dead.

Add in the las cannons and twin assault cannons and you will put a big hurtin on heavy tanks. Plus, you pay lots of points for that av14. All you have to do is stun a few of them to dramatically cut down on their firepower.

IG tanks are more of a threat due to pie plates, but good use of terrain mitigates that a lot, and most tournament IG lists don't use much av14 right now. It's all av12 spam, which is the ML's ideal target.

Missile Spam wolves are the #2 reason I keep two LR Executioners in my 1850 IG list. #1 is still that in virtually every game they do insane damage.

If the raiders are actually assault transports, though, doesn't the fact that they can't shoot not really matter? Especially with PotMS? I'm thinking of a situation where BA have assault marines with Sang priest in a redeemer, where when that LR hits your lines on turn two he's assaulting one squad and flaming a second.

You are correct.

Executioners are bad ass. That is why you have to hope to have a 2 or 3 level building in your deployment zone to reduce template damage. Those have to die first and all the las go into them, as I am sure you know.

Assault LR's are more of a problem, but that is why I have melta guns in my list. You bum rush me and my meltas come out to meet you. That plus dreadnoughts/chainfists.

In all honesty, I have only played the hardcore deathstar BA assault termie list once in a tournament. I popped the LR with meltas turn two, then wasted all the termies and characters inside with focused fire.

I imagine that if they would have delivered their payload it would have been messy, but I would have charged blocked with Razorbacks, too.

It is all situational.

In a vacuum though, yes, that could be very problematic if you are relying solely on MLs, which you should not be.