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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dunno what you guys talking about.

vs Speeder Storm/ Raider av10 open topped
5 missles fired 3.3 hits 2.2 pens 1.48 immobile destroyed eploded results.

vs Rhino/Razorback av 11
5 missles fired 3.33 hits. 1.667 pens. 0.833 immobile, destroyed explodedd results not counting the glance.

vs Dread/Chimera/Valkyrie/Wave Serpent AV12
5 missles fired 3.33 hits. 1.11 pens. 0.55 immobile, destroyed exploded results not counting the glance.

That sounds pretty effective to me for 140 pts.

Oh I hate Longs Fangs.

   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







@pretre its ok my friend I've seen "West Wing" debating on a hair-thin premise is a speciality of mine!

Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

@ Reecius. Yes, I dare to have an opinion different than your deeply cherished beliefs. Perhaps if you'd have something useful to say on the matter rather than simple browbeating, the ideas could be discussed civilly.

Polonius wrote:I'm not one to blindly appeal to authority, but I'd take Ailaros more seriously if he won something. Even in his own battle reports he's under .500. I'm winning something like .750 or more in 5th with my IG.

You choose to determine truth based on the results of individual die rolls? Determining truth through luck is superstition.

That and it's poor form to make an argument based on an ad verecundiam fallacy.

Yuber wrote:First of all, Im not even sure why a Chimera would unload its cargo when they are safer inside in the 1st place.

Then your opponent is spending lots of points to do little damage. Why does it need to be killed in a hurry?

Yuber wrote:Secondly, you talk as if the ML LF can only shoot once.

If your opponent deploys on the front of their deployment zone and goes first, then yes. Otherwise, I'm assuming a couple of turns. This does little to slow them down and doesn't address that the weapon is expensive for what it does.

Yuber wrote:Thridly,You contradict yourself. You say its not a good idea to shoot transports faraway then you stress the point that shooting transports are pointless if they are already in the mid field. They wouldn't have reached the midfield if i started shooting them before getting there, would they?

How is this a contradiction?

And yeah, you could stop a rhino at long range with heavy bolters if you shot enough of them. That doesn't make it worthwhile to take heavy bolters as a good source of anti-tank.

Yuber wrote:Get 5 dice and try to roll them.

I dont' need to. I have statistics. Doing individual subjective trials will only give me more biased results.

@ kirko

For the top two groups, you need to spend way more points than you're killing. That devastator squad needs to kill three rhinos to make it worth taking. Throw in smoke for one turn in your above calculations, and that's not terribly likely to happen. More importantly, there's no possible way for one squad of devastators to kill 3 rhinos before they drop off their cargo.

As for the bottom set, yes, they're better pointswise. I see you've forgotten SMF, though, and that said skimmers outflank, making it very unlikely that your missile launchers will do their job in time. Meanwhile, it's not hard to make dreds AV13, and chimeras have the same points effectiveness problem as the rhino.

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Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

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Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Ailaros wrote: -snip-


Edited for snark

Pretty sure 'killing your points worth' became an outdated measure in 5th. Killing 3 rhinos is more important than their 105 points might indicate. In many cases, those 105 points in rhinos are 'worth' more in many missions than 250 point land raiders.

So a squad of devs killing a few rhinos over the course of the game may not get them their points back, but very well may make the game for you. And generally, they kill more than just a few. Doing the math and knowing that smoke is once per game.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/09/17 22:12:14


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Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight




Lafayette, IN

Ailaros wrote:
Yuber wrote:First of all, Im not even sure why a Chimera would unload its cargo when they are safer inside in the 1st place.

Then your opponent is spending lots of points to do little damage. Why does it need to be killed in a hurry?


You do know that a chimera has multiple fire points, right? You also know that guard have heavy, and rapid fire weapons for the most part. So if they get out they either can't shoot at all, or their range is now 12 inches. So either way they probably can't do anything. So why get out? In the chimera, they are nice and safe from the typical stray templates and the not so stray small arms fire. In the Chimera, they are nice and safe and can A: move and fire non heavy weapons, or B not move and fire heavy weapons. Also, a guard player does NOT pay a bunch of points for that squad.

 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

OK, after some thought I wanted to apologize.

@Ailaros

Sorry for putting you down, there was no reason to. I may strongly disagree with your assertions, but that doesn't mean you are 100% wrong and I am 100% right. If you do something that works for you, then so be it.

I have been playing the game for over 15 years, competitively since 2004. I do very well and sometimes I let that blind me. You should always keep an open mind because you will always be learning new things that way.

Judging from the things you say, I would assume that where you play things are a lot different than in the meta game at large. Therefore, I can't assume you look at the game they way those of us who play competitively do. If you think transports are worthless, or IG actually ever get out of chimeras except for in very limited circumstances, then your meta game is vastly different from the norm.

@Polonius,
You are right. I run the mighty Footdar and the internet thinks that list sucks even though my win percentage with it is through the roof. There is no reason for me to serve up that to other people.

@wmncibo
Comp. Ah, comp. This is a topic that is beaten to death. Comp does not work. It only shifts power. I won't go any further on the topic because it is something people get upset about. Suffice it to say, I strongly disagree with comp.

@the thread
Sorry for sounding arrogant. Just because I just won best general at a GT with my missile wolves doesn't mean that my opinion is the only one with any validity.

The point of the game is to have fun, and everyone does that in their own way.

   
Made in de
Storm Trooper with Maglight







Yes Space Wolves can shoot better than IG in a scenario with both armies facing each other deployed in the open and the SW starting the game. But if the IG wants it can silence many ML before they even start shooting if IG shoots first. And as you said, it is a big difference to have 20 or 10 missiles. so losing a long fang squad in the first turn is a gamebreaker if you only rely on ML (which would be foolish as Reecius says).

Secong big advantage of IG: It can shoot almost everything moving 6" and will not lose much firepower. So they can reserve if the wolves start the game and make second turn into first turn for them. (SW cannot, because half of their ML are heavy weapons on infantry) Furthermore it can use terrain to avoid some long fang fire. So Wolves will have a hard time winning a shootout vs IG. They have to bring some nasty additions like scouts to finish the job.




 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







Wow, I think this thread just took on a life of its own and in blinding moment of self - realisation has discovered all it has done is upset and cause argument and in a moment of absolute clarity killed itself. ///thread is dead.

Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest! 
   
Made in ph
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





Ailaros wrote:
You choose to determine truth based on the results of individual die rolls? Determining truth through luck is superstition.


But determining the probable outcome with, I don't know, probability? Especially when we're playing in a probability-based game? I don't know. It might be superstition. Right.

When rolling a six-sided die, you will roll a 1 1/6 of the time. That is truth. Is it superstition? Hell no.

When rolling two six-sided dice, you will roll a 7 at 16.66% of the time. That is truth. Is it superstition? Hell no.

Saying that the odds are stacked in your favor is true is not a fallacy. It is simply true. The argument does not say that you will have 100% chance, it just says you are more likely to have your favorable result. He didn't say that it will surely happen, but the dice makes it likely to happen. See, there's a difference. Now if he said that OMG SURELY YOU WILL DESTROY THAT TANK, then now that's a fallacy. It's not an appeal to probability, sorry.

Please refrain from pointing out one's fallacies when you are committing fallacies of your own (using a strawman and begging the question).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/07 04:17:34


Violence is not the answer, but it's always a good guess. 
   
 
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