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After so much buzz I broke down and bought the Blood Angels codex. I will preface this by saying I was never a huge fan of the Blood Angels in the first place but after reading this codex - wow! It really made the Chapter different from the others in the Vanilla Codex. Aside from some of the really crazy stuff (deep striking Landraiders) it gave a flavor and fleshed out the BA in ways I never thought before. From the Black Company to Furioso Dreadnoughts it made the BA stand out on their own and make me want to at least buy a few models and deck them out.

But the experience got me thinking. I was not wowed like this by the Vanilla marine book even though I love the Ultramarines and their fluff (favorite color scheme too). WHat about the other chapters? Chapters like the White Scars, Imperial Fists, etc. We hear fluff wise for example that the White Scars are known for using bikes and hit and run while the Fists are all about defense and siege craft yet no where is this reflected in the rule set. It's extremely generic which is fine on one level. You can create your own chapter and it will be like everyone else but that may be the problem, for me at least. Why take the Imperial Fists known for defense and siege craft if there is no rules driven bonus for doing so? For example why not give the Fists the Stubborn special rule? Maybe even go so far as pick a vehicle that they get at a discount so to follow the example above the Fists get the Vindicator for 15 points less than the list price or it comes with the Siege Shield for free. Nothing crazy of unbalncing just a neat little extra to help you make your army more fluffy. White Scars might all get the Hit and Run special rule along with a free weapons upgrade to their bikes.

I know it adds some complexity to list building and the game in general but frankly the generic one size fits all feel of the Marine Codex seems even more boring in light of the Blood Angels codex where an assaulty army gets a nice big bonus to everything.

I think I read somewhere that the 4th ed codex allowed you to take traits for your codex to make it more individualized. That seems cool to me as well but having never played under those rules I don't know if it made things unnecessarily complicated. I just think it would be cool for the person fielding a SM to not plop down GENERIC CHAPTER SM on the table. Instead if he lays out some Imperial Fists he gets some support for his fluff, makes the player really think about the chapter he is choosing and also adds to the strategic aspect where his opponent has to now take into account that he is facing Imperial FIsts so they will be stubborn and watch out for his Vindies as opposed to "Oh, he's playing SM."

What are people's thoughts on this?

Imperial Guard, Tau, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Orks don't have this. Neither should marines.

As a matter of fact, there shouldn't even be Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, etc codicies. It's unnecessary.

...Well there definitely should be, there are specific IMPORTANT structural differences in those chapters.

In the Imperial Fists there really isn't besides the leaders...

There's a world of difference between a Saim-Hann host and an Iyanden war party, right down to the point to make the structural difference between Blood Angels and Ultramarines seem like armour paint. That's just an example. Imperial Guards are just about as diverse, and not knowing Tau lore at all I'm willing to bet they're not all so hot on Pulse Rifles (auxiliary army, anyone?).

The important difference is that GW likes pushing Space Marine models. A small product line, a strong brand (being the space marine, not the game) along with an easy way to mass-produce selling arguments. It's all brilliant marketing. It's a great tragedy for everyone who's not playing Space Marines, but it should also be for the Space Marine players, too - do they get to kill Xenos half as often as other Space Marines?

I know this is going to sound a bit Xeno-grumpy, but the Eldar Craftworld book could make an excellent model for all major armies*. Kill off the specific armies and condense them into one Codex: Deviant Chapters.
Mind you, the Codex: Craftworlds was a bit iffy on the balance between the different Craftworlds.

* I say major, because some armies aren't portrayed as very diverse in structure. Dark Eldar (so far) are portrayed as coming from a single city, being just as diverse as a single Eldar Craftworld can manage. Orks on the other hand... maybe their Codex: Klans will be a trilogy

i'm of the opinion imperial fist vehicles should all be allowed to have siege shields for +15 points or some such

Mahtamori wrote:There's a world of difference between a Saim-Hann host and an Iyanden war party, right down to the point to make the structural difference between Blood Angels and Ultramarines seem like armour paint. That's just an example. Imperial Guards are just about as diverse, and not knowing Tau lore at all I'm willing to bet they're not all so hot on Pulse Rifles (auxiliary army, anyone?).

The important difference is that GW likes pushing Space Marine models. A small product line, a strong brand (being the space marine, not the game) along with an easy way to mass-produce selling arguments. It's all brilliant marketing. It's a great tragedy for everyone who's not playing Space Marines, but it should also be for the Space Marine players, too - do they get to kill Xenos half as often as other Space Marines?

I know this is going to sound a bit Xeno-grumpy, but the Eldar Craftworld book could make an excellent model for all major armies*. Kill off the specific armies and condense them into one Codex: Deviant Chapters.
Mind you, the Codex: Craftworlds was a bit iffy on the balance between the different Craftworlds.

* I say major, because some armies aren't portrayed as very diverse in structure. Dark Eldar (so far) are portrayed as coming from a single city, being just as diverse as a single Eldar Craftworld can manage. Orks on the other hand... maybe their Codex: Klans will be a trilogy

There isn't really that big of a difference, the most they could do between the craftworlds is make one unit a troops instead of an elites, besides that the units are the same.

With blood angels you have Sanguinary Priests, Sanguinary Guard, Baal Predators, fast vehicles, MANY differences from the Space Marine codexes.

While with the Eldar you may have a bunch of nameless Farseers and a differnet amount of Guardians versus Dire Avengers.

Mahtamori wrote:The important difference is that GW likes pushing Space Marine models.

People keep saying this, thinking that marine popularity was a result of GW focus, and that's not true. GW have focussed more and more on marines because they've always been the most popular, and that's really no surprise - who wouldn't expect genetically engineered superhumans in power armour to be the most popular draw for young gamers?

The reality is that no matter what GW do the most popular army by far will be Marines. Once that's accepted, it becomes clear that game after game of vanilla marines fighting vanilla marines would get dull, so there needs to be some variety between marine armies. So we get seperate rules for Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

Other armies don't demand the same treatment because Eldar, Orks or whoever else don't make up half or more of the playing base of the game.

I'm sorry, but Marines don't need more codexes. You already have a generic one and individualized ones for BA, DA, SW, and BT. Even Grey Knights kinda count as Marines.

Yes, it would be awesome if GW put out 1 new codex a month (or even week!) and we could all have our own specialized rules for each sub-faction. But, since they aren't doing that any time soon, Marines are not on the top of the priority list for getting more Codex specialization.

Edit: Additionally, I wouldn't say Marines are just used by newbies because they're cool (and they are), but because they are fairly simple to use. Each model is really powerful even by itself, and it pretty good at both shooting and CC. So, they tend to be more forgiving if you make tactical mistakes.

I'm for this. Hell, they should just rename the game Space Marines and not update any Chaos or Xeno codex ever again. Saves time.

The Vanilla SM wouldn't need a new codex under what I am proposing. Instead of a codexes in the current Vanilla Codex you get a page for each of the Loyal First Founding Chapters (except of course the Wolves, BA and DA) and you get the following information.

Imperial Fists get the Stubborn special rule and Vindicators can either get a free Siege Shield upgrade or purchased at -15 points.
White Scars get the Hit and Run special rule and Bikes can either get a free weapons upgrade or count as troops
Ravenguard get the Infiltrate special rule and jump infantry count as troops

These are just examples I'm throwing out there that can be handled in less than 20 pages (if we do 1 page per loyalist first founding chapter) and adds flavor to everyone's choices. I'm not advocating new BA type codexes because that would be silly.

And while I agree that the Space Marines chapters give them an added dimension that I think the other factions lack we could still roll something similar out for the other armies. If you're Tau and follow the way of the Fatal Blow I think it's called maybe your Crisis Suits gets a certain weapons upgrade for free and a special rule is in place. For Orks each of the clans get a little bump in something. Nothing crazy and unbalancing but adds flavor to the choices you are making. As it stands now you can tell me all day the Imperial Fists are renown masters of siege craft but that's not reflected anywhere rules wise and it adds some thought on the choices you and your opponent makes.

You are going back to a more complex time - a less generic time. It seems to me that since mid 4th Ed at least the goal of GW has been to make their systems less math intensive. (Now you have to buy the vet sgt and all the options that used to cost points are either given automatically - grenades - or eliminated - veteran abilities)
The 5th Ed twist is to define chapters by purchasing a special character to imbue the chapter traits on the entire army at the expense of losing your smurfiness.

I kind of cringe at this approach as now you only buy one marine army and just need to purchase 5 or 6 special characters to change the core nature of your army 5 or 6 different ways. However this is the GW model and I expect this to continue - perhaps a CODEX: SM Heroes or for the rest CODEX: Infamous Xenos.

Why stop there. Why not just make one book for Humans and One for Non-Humans.

Actually, why not just put all the armies at the back of the BRB.

Oh wait, they tried that. Didn't work.

Gwar! wrote:Why stop there. Why not just make one book for Humans and One for Non-Humans.

Actually, why not just put all the armies at the back of the BRB.

even better they dont release any book
is it great

....wait what

Gwar! wrote:Why stop there. Why not just make one book for Humans and One for Non-Humans.

Actually, why not just put all the armies at the back of the BRB.

Oh wait, they tried that. Didn't work.

And poor Chaos will have half their units in one book and half in another.

Stravo wrote:The Vanilla SM wouldn't need a new codex under what I am proposing. Instead of a codexes in the current Vanilla Codex you get a page for each of the Loyal First Founding Chapters (except of course the Wolves, BA and DA) and you get the following information.

Imperial Fists get the Stubborn special rule and Vindicators can either get a free Siege Shield upgrade or purchased at -15 points.
White Scars get the Hit and Run special rule and Bikes can either get a free weapons upgrade or count as troops
Ravenguard get the Infiltrate special rule and jump infantry count as troops

These are just examples I'm throwing out there that can be handled in less than 20 pages (if we do 1 page per loyalist first founding chapter) and adds flavor to everyone's choices. I'm not advocating new BA type codexes because that would be silly.

And while I agree that the Space Marines chapters give them an added dimension that I think the other factions lack we could still roll something similar out for the other armies. If you're Tau and follow the way of the Fatal Blow I think it's called maybe your Crisis Suits gets a certain weapons upgrade for free and a special rule is in place. For Orks each of the clans get a little bump in something. Nothing crazy and unbalancing but adds flavor to the choices you are making. As it stands now you can tell me all day the Imperial Fists are renown masters of siege craft but that's not reflected anywhere rules wise and it adds some thought on the choices you and your opponent makes.

good idea, but i say fist get siege shield on all vehicles save for dreadnoughts

Gwar! wrote:Why stop there. Why not just make one book for Humans and One for Non-Humans.

Actually, why not just put all the armies at the back of the BRB.

Oh wait, they tried that. Didn't work.

Slippery Slope is a logical fallacy.

Gwar! wrote:Why stop there. Why not just make one book for Humans and One for Non-Humans.

So you want Marines to be combined with Orks?

Yes, I know you're just making a sarcastic statement, and you're REALLY intending to push a logically fallacious argument though your sarcasm. But it's more fun to take the post completely seriously

That said, I'd much rather they bring back an optimized, streamlined version of the system used in fourth edition and then combine all the various Marine books into one.

Urgh. I can't stand selfish gamers anymore. the ones that scream UPDATE MY CODEX! I WANT MORE UNITS! I WANT MY CODEX TO BE 1337! WAAHHHH WAAHHHH while they ALREADY PLAY ONE OF THE MOST UPDATED CODEXES IN THE GAME. Be happy you have your five codexes. You say you remember what happened in 4th when you had more options. Do you remember what happened to the Chaos Legion books? Do you remember how GW MASHED them into a single, flavourless book? The Chaos Codex is an ABOMINATION. GW Needs to update it before they update any marine codexes. but before they update chaos, there are plenty more abominations that are even WORSE than chaos. So before you ask for a new codex, think about all the other races that NEED to be updated beccause they are broken, not because they want an update.

/Rant

Stravo wrote:The Vanilla SM wouldn't need a new codex under what I am proposing. Instead of a codexes in the current Vanilla Codex you get a page for each of the Loyal First Founding Chapters (except of course the Wolves, BA and DA) and you get the following information.

Imperial Fists get the Stubborn special rule and Vindicators can either get a free Siege Shield upgrade or purchased at -15 points.
White Scars get the Hit and Run special rule and Bikes can either get a free weapons upgrade or count as troops
Ravenguard get the Infiltrate special rule and jump infantry count as troops

These are just examples I'm throwing out there that can be handled in less than 20 pages (if we do 1 page per loyalist first founding chapter) and adds flavor to everyone's choices. I'm not advocating new BA type codexes because that would be silly.

And while I agree that the Space Marines chapters give them an added dimension that I think the other factions lack we could still roll something similar out for the other armies. If you're Tau and follow the way of the Fatal Blow I think it's called maybe your Crisis Suits gets a certain weapons upgrade for free and a special rule is in place. For Orks each of the clans get a little bump in something. Nothing crazy and unbalancing but adds flavor to the choices you are making. As it stands now you can tell me all day the Imperial Fists are renown masters of siege craft but that's not reflected anywhere rules wise and it adds some thought on the choices you and your opponent makes.

Well, ignoring the whole "Space Marines already have too much GW support", I think your idea does sound interesting (but give it to other factions first ).

However, you're going to have to get much more in depth than what you're proposing. You can't just have a rule that basically says: "You get free stuff for painting your army a color other than blue." There needs to be some balancing to this. You want an upgrade, you need to accept a downgrade that comes with it or an increase in point costs. I mean, why take Ultramarines if you can take Ravenguard and your entire army can infiltrate for no additional cost? And, once you do that, this will balloon up to be well over a few pages of different sub-factions.

I think a simple "Company" setup would work. "Company" would an upgrade that changes the FoC and occasionally the equipment of units.

IE:

"First Company": Terminators as troops, but with limited fast attack and heavy support

"Battle Company": Standard force

"Reserve Company": Access to all fast attack and heavy support choices and upgrades, limited access to elites

"Assault Company": Assault marines as troops, but fewer shooting-oriented options.

"Devastator Company": Devastators as troops (or maybe a second heavy weapon on tacticals?), but fewer assault-oriented options

Which company you're using would need to be marked very clearly on your army list, but it could work.

Codex Marines have a lot of build options, already. As people have mentioned, the shift has been from 4th ed. traits to HQ choices affecting the whole army. Sure, a new codex for each chapter would make them all feel a bit more individualized, but so would a shift towards players making fluffier lists.

You already can make White Scars, Imperial Fists, etc. lists with builds that play into that chapter's chosen style of warfare. Take a bike captain, load up on your counts-as-troops bikers, and go to town. Or take a termie captain, TH/SS termies, Sternguard, and Vindicators for a defensive or siege themed list. And those don't even consider chapter-specific special characters.

The problem with doing this is that players want the best of both worlds - individualized, distinct fluff and super-competitive lists with awesome, chapter-specific units and discounts and special rules.

Look at ork clans within the context of that codex. A green tide list is fluffy for Goffs, a mech/speed freak list is fluffy for Evil Sunz, MANZ and nob deathstars are fluffy for Bad Moonz, etc. Ork players do it all with one codex, because (like the Marine codex), there are build options that lend themselves to specific clans (chapters). The player can then decide whether to paint within the canon (by most applicable clan/chapter) or make something up for the hell of it.

Do we really need to beef up the Marines codex? It's already 1.5x as thick as most other armies' codices. Do we really need more individual SM chapter codices? How about updating everyone else who needs it, first. SM players really just have to man up and decide if they want to go for max fluff, max power, or the closest they can find to a middle-ground. You know, like every player of a non-SM army already has to.

Oh, I was making my suggestion with the idea that the other Marine codices get folded into this one.

grayspark wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:There's a world of difference between a Saim-Hann host and an Iyanden war party, right down to the point to make the structural difference between Blood Angels and Ultramarines seem like armour paint. That's just an example. Imperial Guards are just about as diverse, and not knowing Tau lore at all I'm willing to bet they're not all so hot on Pulse Rifles (auxiliary army, anyone?).

The important difference is that GW likes pushing Space Marine models. A small product line, a strong brand (being the space marine, not the game) along with an easy way to mass-produce selling arguments. It's all brilliant marketing. It's a great tragedy for everyone who's not playing Space Marines, but it should also be for the Space Marine players, too - do they get to kill Xenos half as often as other Space Marines?

I know this is going to sound a bit Xeno-grumpy, but the Eldar Craftworld book could make an excellent model for all major armies*. Kill off the specific armies and condense them into one Codex: Deviant Chapters.
Mind you, the Codex: Craftworlds was a bit iffy on the balance between the different Craftworlds.

* I say major, because some armies aren't portrayed as very diverse in structure. Dark Eldar (so far) are portrayed as coming from a single city, being just as diverse as a single Eldar Craftworld can manage. Orks on the other hand... maybe their Codex: Klans will be a trilogy

There isn't really that big of a difference, the most they could do between the craftworlds is make one unit a troops instead of an elites, besides that the units are the same.

With blood angels you have Sanguinary Priests, Sanguinary Guard, Baal Predators, fast vehicles, MANY differences from the Space Marine codexes.

While with the Eldar you may have a bunch of nameless Farseers and a differnet amount of Guardians versus Dire Avengers.

What have you been smoking? Alaitoc craftworld is distinct in its extensive use of scouts, Ulthwe for psykers and Guardians, Saim Hann for jetbikes (the eldar version of white scars), Biel Tan is almost exclusively aspect warriors, and Iyanden is reknowned for heavy use of wraithguard and wraithlords... why don't we get 5 different codex? OH YEAH! BECAUSE WE LEARN TO MAKE DO with one force list and if we want to tailor it to a particular craftworld, you just use the force list by picking certain units that fit with the flavor of your chosen craftworld. Marines could do the same thing with varying chapters with ONE codex. You want to call them blood angels? Fine, call them blood angels and take a lot of assault marines. Call your Vanguard 'sanguinary guard' for all I care, but at least then the rules are the same for every chapter, instead of certain (ahem BA) chapters don't have every ability of nillas, no penalty, and also have drop podding LAND raiders and so on to boot.

You can easily make a white scars list by filling up as many points as you can on bike squads and minimizing your unmounted troops and giving them rhinos. Ta da! You can easily make any chapter, including the ones that have their own codex, by creatively naming some of the standard marine templates. They aren't deathwing, they are a terminator squad that you call 'deathwing'. I think it is very unfair to nilla marines that every non-nilla codex is like vanilla+1. It is very unfair to ALL non-marine players that marines can pick and choose from so many different codex with 'counts as'... Who would ever play ultramarines AS ultramarines when you can just say you are using the BA codex for all the extra options and counts it as some offshoot chapter?

I liked the Marine rules that allowed you to take specific, generic choices for chapter bonuses/penalties (much like the 4th ed guard 'doctrines') in order to combine them for a unique army. That is far cooler than 5 different books. But GW is thinking about selling more, not making sense.

Melissia wrote:Oh, I was making my suggestion with the idea that the other Marine codices get folded into this one.

To clarify, my post wasn't in response to yours. You were perfectly clear, as far as I'm concerned.

Stravo wrote: We hear fluff wise for example that the White Scars are known for using bikes and hit and run while the Fists are all about defense and siege craft yet no where is this reflected in the rule set. It's extremely generic which is fine on one level. You can create your own chapter and it will be like everyone else but that may be the problem, for me at least. Why take the Imperial Fists known for defense and siege craft if there is no rules driven bonus for doing so? For example why not give the Fists the Stubborn special rule? Maybe even go so far as pick a vehicle that they get at a discount so to follow the example above the Fists get the Vindicator for 15 points less than the list price or it comes with the Siege Shield for free.

fluff doesnt always have to be reflected by the rules.

you wanna be a die hard white scars player? give your hqs bikes and use bike squads or the ravenwing rules.

wanna be more imperial fist? terminators with thunderhammer,stormshields,lysander and vindicators.

there are too many famous chapters and neither is it neccesary nor is it possible to make rules and/or minis for every chapter

Melissia wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Why stop there. Why not just make one book for Humans and One for Non-Humans.

So you want Marines to be combined with Orks?

so you want to say that orks are human?

I really don't want anything big to change (ugh, too much paper) but what would be cool (and this would work for any army besides Daemons + Nids) is a series of special rules you could take for your army at an additional points cost.
2 Examples:
SM- Siege Masters: All non-walker vehicles automatically have Siege Shields.
CSM- The Warp is Strong With This One: All of your Aspiring Champions may take Doombolt as a psychic power for 20 pts each.

Abaddon - why wouldn't it work for those two?

space wolves are compleatly different from space marines.

I like the new SM codexs, i think they are really interesting and add new things to the game. i would like there to be some way to do the saem thing with orks, eldar, IG, etc.

oadie wrote:Codex Marines have a lot of build options, already. As people have mentioned, the shift has been from 4th ed. traits to HQ choices affecting the whole army. Sure, a new codex for each chapter would make them all feel a bit more individualized, but so would a shift towards players making fluffier lists.

You already can make White Scars, Imperial Fists, etc. lists with builds that play into that chapter's chosen style of warfare. Take a bike captain, load up on your counts-as-troops bikers, and go to town. Or take a termie captain, TH/SS termies, Sternguard, and Vindicators for a defensive or siege themed list. And those don't even consider chapter-specific special characters.

The problem with doing this is that players want the best of both worlds - individualized, distinct fluff and super-competitive lists with awesome, chapter-specific units and discounts and special rules.

Look at ork clans within the context of that codex. A green tide list is fluffy for Goffs, a mech/speed freak list is fluffy for Evil Sunz, MANZ and nob deathstars are fluffy for Bad Moonz, etc. Ork players do it all with one codex, because (like the Marine codex), there are build options that lend themselves to specific clans (chapters). The player can then decide whether to paint within the canon (by most applicable clan/chapter) or make something up for the hell of it.


Do we really need to beef up the Marines codex? It's already 1.5x as thick as most other armies' codices. Do we really need more individual SM chapter codices? How about updating everyone else who needs it, first. SM players really just have to man up and decide if they want to go for max fluff, max power, or the closest they can find to a middle-ground. You know, like every player of a non-SM army already has to.

Amen =)