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I'd like to buy some precision dice. I know GameScience seems to be the place to go, but they don't seem to have what I want. All I'm looking for are some white and black opaque dice with pips and no bigger than 1/2". I've looked at Backgammon dice, but can't bring myself to spend $10 for a single D6. Any ideas?

Not trying to be funny, but why? You're still going to roll 1s on a $50 die, probably just as frequently as you will with a cheap set. If you worry that you're not getting random results then make or invest in a dice randomizer, I've seen some beautiful ones made out of wood and really ghetto looking ones made outta cardboard.

Phloop wrote:Not trying to be funny, but why? You're still going to roll 1s on a $50 die, probably just as frequently as you will with a cheap set. If you worry that you're not getting random results then make or invest in a dice randomizer, I've seen some beautiful ones made out of wood and really ghetto looking ones made outta cardboard.

Neither work. The problem is that dice that have been in a rock tumbler have randomly rounded edges.

How does this effect rolling? Well, to roll over an edge, a die requires enough force that the center of gravity rolls up, and then comes back down with the die on a new face.

The more rounded the edge, the less the center of gravity has to rise, and thus less force is needed to make the die choose a different number. This works no matter what randomization is happening.

Now take out your chessex dice. Eyeball em. Are the edges all equally rounded? Keep in mind that when cheats use shaved dice, they shave the die around 1/1000". Are your chessex dice even to 1/1000"? 1/100"? I doubt it.

Precision dice roll more 'randomly,' this is just fact.

Wow ! and you cant stop there what about..the surface there rolled on ? the distance there rolled ? the air pressure ? the colour of the dice ? a man could go mad thinking of all the resons the dice are against him !

Yar, so what if the dice are all minutely affected by wear and tear, imprecise craftsmanship etc? You have quite a few dice of each colour, and you presumably don't necessarily always use one die (or even one of 6 or so) to do the most vital rolls. So over a large number of rolls, ie a few games of warhammer, it should all even out.

Game Science make opaque dice but not with pips on.

If you buy the Game Science dice, I would save the cost and mark in the numerals yourself. The ready marked ones are a lot more expensive and wear off quickly. (As I have found to my cost.)

CURNOW wrote:Wow ! and you cant stop there what about..the surface there rolled on ? the distance there rolled ? the air pressure ? the colour of the dice ? a man could go mad thinking of all the resons the dice are against him !

Um, for shaved dice, the percentages are enough that people can make thousands of dollars with them. For dice on the quality of chessex, you could alter the chances of a specific face showing by several percentage points. While this doesn't sound huge, remember that each face has no more than ~16% chance of showing in any case. Terminators when your dice have an 11% chance to roll 1s are pretty goddamn hax.

Chessex dice are shaved, you can't argue against this.

Wear does eventually kick in, for precision dice used casually, I'd replace them every 2-3 years.

Okay, I'll admit that I didn't consider dice-shaving or how dings and dent can affect the averages. But surely the cheap chalky dice with the slightly odd center of gravity I bought in bulk won't screw the randomness of my game up, especially when I'm rolling 30 dice for my orkz on a charge? Sometimes I roll like a god. Sometimes I fail every save. But if the intention to cheat isn't there does it matter to either player?

Random dice are at the heart of games that use dice rolling as a randomisation mechanism.

It may not make a difference in one game, perhaps it makes a difference only in one roll out of 1,000, but eventually it will make a difference.

If you know your dice aren't random, you would be cheating if you know the bias and play towards it. For instance, if you find a die that rolls more 1s than normal, and reserve it for Morale tests.

But yeah. People can get too worked up about these things. Just buy a GW cube of dice and let both sides use it. Any bias will be shared equally.

1.) Dirt cheap highest quality dice don't exist. Either pay for luxury or don't.
2.) High precision dice may be random in principle, but they are not usable for tabletop games (unless you have a long, felt covered Craps/Seven-Eleven Casino table with you): The hard ground and the short roll distance make it hard not to cheat.

Kroothawk wrote:1.) Dirt cheap highest quality dice don't exist. Either pay for luxury or don't.
2.) High precision dice may be random in principle, but they are not usable for tabletop games (unless you have a long, felt covered Craps/Seven-Eleven Casino table with you): The hard ground and the short roll distance make it hard not to cheat.

Very, very true. It's not just the dice that are a consideration here.

Back to the original question: Oni, you live in the states, yeah? I heard Vegas casinos only use their dice for like, 3 hours before they chuck them. Can't you find a site that sells second-hand casino dice? Surely they must be producing these things at a prodigious rate...

I really like my Koplow dice. They aren't perfectly cubicle with edges that can cut you, but they are a lot less rounded than chessex. I was pretty skeptical about improving my results with better dice, but I did a home test and it changed my mind. I rolled 18 dice at a time with a dice cup onto a felted surface, 1000 repetitions, and jotted down results. Average would have been 3 ones, 3 twos, and so on, but the chessex dice fell under average statistically. I didn't keep the notes I made, but it was 54 or 55% ones, twos and threes. I did the same thing with Koplow dice and actually did better on fours, fives and sixes.

I still didn't buy it completely, so I invited my friend over and we repeated the test on a smaller scale. He ordered a bunch of Koplow dice the same day. The chessex make really pretty dice, I have cubes of almost every color scheme they make, but I won't play competitive games with them.

Kroothawk wrote:1.) Dirt cheap highest quality dice don't exist. Either pay for luxury or don't.
2.) High precision dice may be random in principle, but they are not usable for tabletop games (unless you have a long, felt covered Craps/Seven-Eleven Casino table with you): The hard ground and the short roll distance make it hard not to cheat.

Backgammon dice are expressly designed to solve problem #2, so I'd feel comfortable saying that #2 is inaccurate if you bother to shop around a bit.

Phloop wrote:Back to the original question: Oni, you live in the states, yeah? I heard Vegas casinos only use their dice for like, 3 hours before they chuck them. Can't you find a site that sells second-hand casino dice? Surely they must be producing these things at a prodigious rate...

Not a bad idea if you could find them, but could be hard to get. Put simply, casinos wouldn't want exact copies of their dice rolling around (pun only kinda intended ) all over town. Same with cards, you can get the slightly used casino decks, but they punch them so they can't be slipped into play at the table without being spotted. At least that's they way it goes around these parts.

Krak_kirby wrote:I really like my Koplow dice. They aren't perfectly cubicle with edges that can cut you, but they are a lot less rounded than chessex. I was pretty skeptical about improving my results with better dice, but I did a home test and it changed my mind. I rolled 18 dice at a time with a dice cup onto a felted surface, 1000 repetitions, and jotted down results. Average would have been 3 ones, 3 twos, and so on, but the chessex dice fell under average statistically. I didn't keep the notes I made, but it was 54 or 55% ones, twos and threes. I did the same thing with Koplow dice and actually did better on fours, fives and sixes.

I still didn't buy it completely, so I invited my friend over and we repeated the test on a smaller scale. He ordered a bunch of Koplow dice the same day. The chessex make really pretty dice, I have cubes of almost every color scheme they make, but I won't play competitive games with them.

So you rolled dice excessively and picked the ones that rolled the highest on more on average? That sounds like a form of cheating to me, if you really care that much about winning why not go the whole hog and buy some dice that have a few loaded dice in a cube of normals? You roll statistically better, the dice all look the same, and no-one will know the difference unless they test all the dice, or just get lucky on testing a few. Infact, why not just pay for hypnosis lessons, then hypnotise your opponent to lose? Or some other such ludicrous or random way of winning in the face of adversity.

Just play with some dice, I don't care which ones. Just pick some dice out of a bucket at a Games Show or something. Use them. Personally I use Chessex, Flames of War (soviet), or Red Blok dice. I don't care how they roll, they look cool, and that's that.

Oshova

Personally I never use the smaller chessex dice.. They are skewed to roll 1s a lot more of the time due to their rounded nature

Not sure why anyone would ever use them.. Too bad they're convenient. I only ever use the LARGE chessex dice or full cubes without rounded edges

I find the argument that rounded dice roll 1's more often to be rather laughable.

If the edges are randomly rounded, any face could be more likely to come up. I have a GW block of dice that (imho) rolls above average, and I've actually stopped using it (admittedly, this was due to getting Dakka Dice but still!).

Randomly rounded edged dice results will be slightly skewed, but randomly... it could be high or low. Human nature, however, is to remember the low rolling dice only

As long as you're not picking out certain dice for certain rolls, I'm OK with a person using any kind of dice.

My point in replying had been to give you a link to where someone was putting together an order for precision dice recently, unfortunately I can't find it at the moment...

Some people take wargaming too seriously, I swear.
I mean, surely dice are dice. Most gaming companies sell dice, so why would they sell dice unsuitable for their games?
And heres me thinking we all did this for fun?

Im just going off the article that was on dakka years ago where they tested rounded dice vs cubed dice.. Thousands of rolls were made and the results were that instead of 16% chance to roll 1s they had about a 26% chance

Chessex even admitted it was true but they make a lot more money shaving off the edges. Round edges + slightly uneven weight due to pips means the dice just arent balanced correctly

Plus bigger dice dont bounce off the table as much

I mean, surely dice are dice. Most gaming companies sell dice, so why would they sell dice unsuitable for their games?

Theyre suitable because small percentage differences dont matter as much in most games. Also, same reason most corporations sell shoddy merchandise.. and thats to make higher profits. When you play for prizes worth over a thousand dollars, yes I do take it seriously :p In casual games I use whatever dice I can find tho

So you're saying they're 'bad' dice because their pipped. And yet they roll below average. But surely if they're rolling unaveragely (?) then they would be rolling more 6s (that being the lightest side, as it has the most pips drilled out)

Oshova

US Casinos often do sell their old dice (I've got a few sets), but they usually mark them in some way, often by drilling a small hole or defacing the surface permanently. So, they're probably somewhat suspect with regards to being fully random.

Plus, as stated, the ultra-hard edges mean they don't really roll unless tossed pretty well. I tend to use them for rolling D&D 3E characters, but beyond that they're mainly used as monster stand-ins in my games (ie, the red ones are goblins 1, 2, and 3). Their tendency to stay upright works well for that purpose.

iPod + wifi + http://www.random.org/dice/

Random number generator used all over the world since 1998, generated based on atmospheric noise.

But you can only roll 16 dice . . . That's not the most efficient way of rolling really. Especially if you're playing a horde. Also there's no sorting, you just get the results. However, I do like how it works out the randomness. Very clever, and random

Oshova

People trust it too, which is nice

Kirasu wrote:Im just going off the article that was on dakka years ago where they tested rounded dice vs cubed dice.. Thousands of rolls were made and the results were that instead of 16% chance to roll 1s they had about a 26% chance

Personally, I think that article is crap . But I do agree that chessex dice aren't balanced perfectly (I think anyone looking at the evidence would agree to that). I just don't buy that they roll "1" more often than any other face.

Simple logic would point to that side being the least likely to be rolled, since it has the least material removed and would be slightly heavier (and so more likely to face down). So that's where I start chalking things up to gamer's memories / superstitions / etc rather than science.

A little more on-topic I finally found the thread I was looking for, it was AgeOfEgos who had been putting together an order for some small casino dice:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/310239.page#1824697

Here is another thread where someone has found a few sources for small, straight-edged dice:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/304312.page#1905765

Hope it helps!!

Lou Zocchi is the man and his rant on dice:

Pt. 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

Pt. 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34

Oshova wrote:

Krak_kirby wrote:I really like my Koplow dice. They aren't perfectly cubicle with edges that can cut you, but they are a lot less rounded than chessex. I was pretty skeptical about improving my results with better dice, but I did a home test and it changed my mind. I rolled 18 dice at a time with a dice cup onto a felted surface, 1000 repetitions, and jotted down results. Average would have been 3 ones, 3 twos, and so on, but the chessex dice fell under average statistically. I didn't keep the notes I made, but it was 54 or 55% ones, twos and threes. I did the same thing with Koplow dice and actually did better on fours, fives and sixes.

I still didn't buy it completely, so I invited my friend over and we repeated the test on a smaller scale. He ordered a bunch of Koplow dice the same day. The chessex make really pretty dice, I have cubes of almost every color scheme they make, but I won't play competitive games with them.

So you rolled dice excessively and picked the ones that rolled the highest on more on average? That sounds like a form of cheating to me, if you really care that much about winning why not go the whole hog and buy some dice that have a few loaded dice in a cube of normals? You roll statistically better, the dice all look the same, and no-one will know the difference unless they test all the dice, or just get lucky on testing a few. Infact, why not just pay for hypnosis lessons, then hypnotise your opponent to lose? Or some other such ludicrous or random way of winning in the face of adversity.

Just play with some dice, I don't care which ones. Just pick some dice out of a bucket at a Games Show or something. Use them. Personally I use Chessex, Flames of War (soviet), or Red Blok dice. I don't care how they roll, they look cool, and that's that.

Oshova

No, I did not pick the ones that rolled highest on more than average. I compared half a cube (18) of chessex dice to 18 koplow dice, and the koplow dice rolled better, so now I play with koplow dice. I did not buy large amounts of koplow dice and roll each one till I could cherry pick the high rollers, I simply bought several different colors of koplow and I use them all. If that sounds like cheating to you, you are welcome to your opinion. You should consider your words before you accuse someone directly or by inference of being a cheat or a liar. Please don't put me in with the crowd that loads dice, microwaves them, fast rolls, picks up successful rolls instead of fails, adds extra movement, or anything else that actually is cheating.

RiTides wrote:I find the argument that rounded dice roll 1's more often to be rather laughable.

If the edges are randomly rounded, any face could be more likely to come up.

I agree. In order for a rounded die to make a significant statistical change, it would have to have every side rounded the same way (or a player who can somehow cleverly roll his dice so they always rotate on the exact same axis.)

If someone wants to pay extreme amounts of money on tiny statistical variations with their dice, they're welcome to it. But me personally, I'm happy to just spend that money on models and paint and cheetos. This isn't gambling. There are no stakes to be won or lost.

Oshova wrote:So you're saying they're 'bad' dice because their pipped. And yet they roll below average. But surely if they're rolling unaveragely (?) then they would be rolling more 6s (that being the lightest side, as it has the most pips drilled out)

Oshova

RiTides wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Im just going off the article that was on dakka years ago where they tested rounded dice vs cubed dice.. Thousands of rolls were made and the results were that instead of 16% chance to roll 1s they had about a 26% chance

Personally, I think that article is crap . But I do agree that chessex dice aren't balanced perfectly (I think anyone looking at the evidence would agree to that). I just don't buy that they roll "1" more often than any other face.

Simple logic would point to that side being the least likely to be rolled, since it has the least material removed and would be slightly heavier (and so more likely to face down). So that's where I start chalking things up to gamer's memories / superstitions / etc rather than science....

This is actually incorrect. From the Dice Rolling article on Dakka:

Game room logic, a poor source of anything, would dictate that the side with the one is heavier and would therefore be on the bottom more. Unfortunately this is just not true, take popcorn or batholiths as an example. The 6 is too light to stop the momentum of the die, the rounded corners cannot prevent the die from turning due to the weight. In the end 1s are by far the most common result. On a 6 sided die any given number should appear 16.6% of the time, the Vegas dice were dead on and the square dice with pips were pretty close, only displaying a 19% ratio for ones.