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Next part.

My personal prize goes to Fiends. With hit and run, rending, loads of attacks and speed, it's hard to refuse them. All of it for 30 points. He/she is lovely. Run them into the enemy, cripple the unit, run away 3d6 towards someone else, repeat. If you're not taking 18 of them, you better be doing something VERY cool.

Flamers make a close second, but they're a tad bit too fragile. Still, I love them.

As a side note, I wish so very badly for Bloodcrushers to be awesome, but they're just too slow.

Bloodcrushers don't need to be fast, they deep strike in close enough that you only really need them to weather one shooting phase.

They're tough as nails too. Although, with the number of models wearing stormshields these days, I'd give fiends the slight edge. Head-to-head and point-for-point, fiends beat crushers, but you're limited to six in a unit and they don't take hits nearly as well for the turn they have to sit in the open.

Considering that you can bring twice the points in crushers (per unit) than you can in fiends, if you want to run really elite heavy, that's the way to go.

Flamers are a high risk/reward unit. A unit of three can kill far more than their point value, but can just as easily scatter and do nothing, and with minimal wounds and saves, then they just die.

Beasts are just bad.

I guess you'll have to stab me...but I'll roll for my FNP, *roll=5*, whelp...moving along

*Stabs Sanctjud*

Moving right along, to Redbeard, I first have to start with this:

I love, you are so awesome! Thanks for gracing my topic with your post!

*Ahem*

Moving along, I feel that if they had fleet or if they were Calvary, they would be WAY worth it, but without it, people on foot can out run them, leaving your big pricy unit out in the open and ready to die.

Agreed on the Flamers and Beasts.

Fıends for versatılıty, and for beıng one of our only real answers to mech. Lack of grenades rapes them though. Crushers for beıng awesomesauce. Havıng only ınfantry movement makes me sad though. Flamers because theyre great fun wıth pavane prınces. I posted a lıst up wıth loads of breath and pavane a whıle ago, ıt worked OK durıng playtestıng.

Oh my. I can't believe I never thought of Flamers + Pavane.

And I might have to reconsider my thoughts about Bloodcrushers. See! Were all learning new things!

Or at least I am.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/316230.page

Heres the lıst I made a whıle ago, ıts changed a bıt over tıme but the basıc structure ıs there.

Bloodcrushers are nigh unkillable though. Two units can easily corner an entire army due to giant base size and go in for the kill.

@Zeekill: I was just thinking about that. Spawning two untis to pincer the enemy in, maybe throw some fiends to chance down survivors. All good.

@Jabbdo: That list looks really good, despite being short range. But with Deep Striking, guess you don't really need long range stuff.

Thanks =)

The bloodletters work really nıcely ın that lıst too, as normally they cant catch anythıng, but there they can drop down rıght behınd the heralds and flamers, and ıf someone charges the squıshy tzeentch stuff the letters wıll eat them next turn.

Bootman wrote:
Moving along, I feel that if they had fleet or if they were Calvary, they would be WAY worth it, but without it, people on foot can out run them, leaving your big pricy unit out in the open and ready to die.

On the other side, by not being cavalry, they can actually go into the second level of a ruin. A minor point (and I coulda sworn I've seen horses run up stairs in movies), but it's a valid one.

Anyhow, as for outrunning crushers, it's not going to happen. If you're running, you're not shooting as much, and you'll run out of space to run. If you let me corner you in, I get the objectives. And "ready to die" - have you run a unit of 8 crushers + upgrades? They don't die. Small arms fire has to get through T5 and a 3+ save. Anti-tank weapons have to get past eternal warrior, 5+ invuls and 2 wounds each on wound allocatable models. I've played games where my opponent's entire army fired at a unit causing two casualties and a couple of other wounds, and after that, they just charged in and killed everything.

And they get stronger as you attach heralds to the unit, adding more wound-allocation tricks. Crusher's real weakness is against walkers, not stuff running away. You have to be very careful to avoid getting your pricey unit tied up fighting a dreadnought all game. That's another place where some extra rending attacks from heralds can come in useful.

Ill chime in on redbeard on this one.
Crushers really do take it for me.
Adding in a herald really does give them a nice boost, or if your going to be playing MC heavy armies throw skull taker with them for the nice instant death goodness.

Along with walkers, avoid large mobs of things like boyz.
May not be that great, but you will get burried alive by the sheer number of attacks, and quickly.

Hmm... you do make a good case for them...

You see, my problem is I read a few Daemon acticles and they basicaly went and said which units were the best over-all, and their logic matched up.

But I guess I have to learn that even if you can't see, or someone else can't, doesn't mean there isn't a way to use a unit well.

What's the best numbers to take for the Blood Crushers?

If your only takıng 1 unıt, max ıt, and attack as many kheralds as you can spare FOC slots. If your takıng 2-3 unıts try to have around 12-15 crushers total. Less and theres not enough redundancy. More and ıts overkıll.

A good way Ive found ıs takıng 1 max unıt, attach 2 kheralds on juggers, and fıll out the other 2 elıte slots wıth max fıends.

There is no best number. If you want a death-star, bring 8. If you want a solid heavy hitter, six works, as does four. Less than four, you lose a lot of your punch and survivability, and since you really want elites to be about the killing, I'd not want to run less than four.

Best overall doesn't matter if it doesn't work in the context of the army you're running. Crushers, fiends and flamers are all really good units, and it's more about choosing what works for your metagame and your overall army design, than it is about choosing one of the three and calling it the best.

If you're playing an in-your-face army, then bloodcrushers are the best. If you're playing more of a reactive army, then fiends give you more distance for a counter-charge. If you've got 100 points to drop, three flamers will get you the most bang for those points.

Redbeard covered why Crushers are extremely good, but I just want to throw in that the crushers are one of the few units you can place an icon and have it survive even if the enemy wants it dead. In fact Id say its the only unit that can do that and deepstrike aggressively.

15 plaguebearers can also do this, but a dedicated assault unit can rip right through it. Something like a 6 pack of wraiths with a destroyer lord............wondering if you still remember that game Redbeard

Also, keep in mind the footprint of the unit if you taking 8 with heralds.
With 60mm bases its a pretty big area in total, so you may have a few DS problems if your not careful.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:
15 plaguebearers can also do this, but a dedicated assault unit can rip right through it. Something like a 6 pack of wraiths with a destroyer lord............wondering if you still remember that game Redbeard

I might be getting older, but it was only a year ago...
Besides, it's still up in the Battle Report.

As for the footprint of the unit, I think it's actually beneficial to be more than seven bases when landing. Because you get to choose where that outer ring lands, you get a little more wiggle room in landing.

Meaning, if I want to ensure my unit is safe, I need to drop the initial model 15 inches away. The first ring is going to surround it 3.5" in all directions. But that second ring, you can fudge an extra inch simply by choosing to put the eighth model touching the edge of one of the other's bases or in between two of them. You can also choose whether the extras come down on the away side (useful if you scatter towards the opponent) or the near-to side (if you scatter away), or left/right if you scatter to the side.

Once you account for the idea that you're going to take a lot of space, you can micro-manage the landing to give you better odds of making that next-turn assault.

To the poster who cited Flamers as high risk/reward units - 100% correct. But nothing is more devastating than a unit of flamers torching someone into the dust.

Tzeentchian daemons are the ULTIMATE disruption units. Bloodcrushers have a huge bullseye on them.

Fiends aren't worth the elite slots - why not spam seekers (the only decent fast attack choice) for the equivalent cost?

liam0404 wrote:Fiends aren't worth the elite slots - why not spam seekers (the only decent fast attack choice) for the equivalent cost?

Seekers are slightly different. For the same points, here's what you get:

Fiends: 8 Wounds, 20(24 charging) attacks, I5, S5, Hit&Run
Seekers: 7 Wounds, 28 (35 charging) attacks, I6, S3, Grenades

Against enemy infantry, seekers should do as well. The drop in attack strength is compensated by the gain in attacks. It's against mech where the fiends pull the advantage. The difference between S5 and S3 is huge. S5 means that I can pen transports 1/6th of the time, and glance another 1/6. S3 means you're depending on that rending die, and that's another roll. You go from 17% glance, 17% pen to 5% glance, 10% pen. What's more, against walkers, fiends can actually pen A12 and 13. Seekers, at most, glance the dreadnought and can't hurt ironclads, furiosos, or the like at all.

In addition, Fiends have (slightly) better toughness, and at 2 wounds each, it does take a bit more shooting to reduce their effectiveness. Seekers that get caught in the open are dead seekers.

In fact, I'd almost consider Fleshhounds over Seekers, for the toughness and S advantage. S5 (charging) fleshhounds can still pen transports.

I agree with what you're saying ( i use other things in my lists to pop transports etc).

I think that seekers are fast enough to not worry about getting caught in the open, as they have a 24 inch threat range.

Warhammer would be dull if we all ran the same lists though!

I went with fiends, since there really isn't anything they can't hurt (even AV 14 if you take the strength bonus on one) and they are the cheapest elite. The things I look for in a unit are A: offensive ability, and B: cost. If both are acceptable, I take them. Defensive ability isn't that important to me since I tend to favor glass cannon armies.

That being said, i don't like the seekers for the reasons Redbeard stated. I think that the fleshounds are the better buy. My list has both fiends and fleshounds, as S5 is pretty good in a CC army. Wish the hounds had rending, but you can't have everything.

I'd settle for the Hounds having Fleet. That would be brutal.

Bootman wrote:I'd settle for the Hounds having Fleet. That would be brutal.

I might be misunderstanding something, but I thought that flesh hounds do have fleet. They are beasts after all.

Bloodcrushers all the way. With fateweaver they're nigh unkillable. I happen to play against a fatecrusher list on a regular basis and it is a huge struggle every single time.

No, Beasts just get to assualt 12". That's it. Which is good for Daemons, because it makes it REALLY hard for those foot-sloggers (and even Vehicles) to get away, since they deep strike so close.

It also makes them good for guarding objectives. Set them up 15" away from an object (You can catch two or even three sometimes) and anything that comes near enough to capture get's mauled by the dogs. Good times.

Bootman wrote:No, Beasts just get to assualt 12". That's it.

They also get fleet. Rulebook pg 54.

ASSAULT
"Beasts and cavalry have the 'fleet' special rule (see page 75)."

.... You have got to be pulling my leg...

*Looks it up*

....

That's it, Flesh Hounds win this for me all the way. Thank you so much for that, Whitedragon. Doesn't that mean they have an an effective 19" threat range? assuming an average Fleet roll? Wow~

That's awesome.

6+ d6 (average 3.5) +12 = 21.5

So about 21-22 inch threat range. Can be as high as 24, can be as low as 19.

So same range as fiends, seekers, and chariots of slaanesh.

That's pretty good. I really like these guys now. Too bad GW has such high prices for them...