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Vulkan making meltas and flamers twin-linked = good.

Terminators being slow = bad.

Solution IMO:

HQ

Vulkan He'stan
190

Chaplain
100

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
220

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Melta
Melta Gun
Missile Launcher
DT: Rhino
220

FAST ATTACK

Assault Squad (10 man no packs)
Sergeant: Power Sword
Flamer
215

Assault Squad (10 man no packs)
Sergeant: Power Sword
Flamer
215

Land Speeder
Heavy Flamer
Multi-Melta
70

HEAVY SUPPORT

Land Raider w/ MM
260

Land Raider w/ MM
260


Toss up between librarian and chaplain.....

Librarian could take Avenger and Null Zone. but chaplain comes into his own with the assault squad. re-rolled rolls to hit with sergeant's power weapon? yes please.

Vulkan goes with other assault squad to add some mastercrafted Str 6 attacks,.

Can you deploy in a non-dedicated transport at the start of the game?

Because jump-pack less assault squad you could get an ablative rhino for free whilst AS sits in the LR. Or some empty drop pods to screen and contest

I'm not sure there is really enough melta/flamer in this list to require Vulkan.

Also, Terminators are no slower then Assult Marines with no Jump Packs, I think you would be better with 2-5man assult squads with hammers. Also, maybe consider dropping the Rhinos and with the points you saved switching from 10 man Assult Squads to Assult Terminators field another Land Speeder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Weejock wrote:Can you deploy in a non-dedicated transport at the start of the game?

Because jump-pack less assault squad you could get an ablative rhino for free whilst AS sits in the LR. Or some empty drop pods to screen and contest

No you can't you'd have to walk to the transport and embark, which I belive is what he is going to have to do with the assult squads in the begginning.

Ok......That's a pity.

Then again they can deploy right next to the land raiders and embark on them during first turn

Yea more flamer/meltas would be a good idea, also if you want to be mean you can exchange that other HQ for a command squad and put vulkan with them, 2+ 3++ with feel no pain? Definately funny to see someone ripping their hair out as they try to kill vulkan

The LRs are not dedicated transports so he can deploy in them just fine. There is still absolutly no point in taking ASM instead of Termies tho

Reason for assault squad instead of terminators:

Number of attacks.

Terminators w/ LCS:

5 + 5 +5 = 15 attacks. admittedly all are power weapons

Assault Marines. Sergeant w/ Power Sword. Flamer.

11 base attacks.
10 charging attacks
9 twin cc attacks

total: 30 attacks

4 of these are with power weapon.

add in chaplain and that's 30 attacks that can be rerolled to hit.

Corennus wrote:Reason for assault squad instead of terminators:

Number of attacks.

Terminators w/ LCS:

5 + 5 +5 = 15 attacks. admittedly all are power weapons

Assault Marines. Sergeant w/ Power Sword. Flamer.

11 base attacks.
10 charging attacks
9 twin cc attacks

total: 30 attacks

4 of these are with power weapon.

add in chaplain and that's 30 attacks that can be rerolled to hit.

That is a pretty good idea, but I'm still placing my vote on vulakn with that command squad for the feel no pain. Simply because (granted I'm don't know if this correct) don't you lose the twinliked flamer/melta thing if he dies?

Why wouldnt the LC termies get a charge bonus if the ASM does? Also, they are a crap load more durable than the ASM (and SS termies even mroe so, which is the config one should use).

Zeteki: Vulkan can not take a command squad

tedurur wrote:Why wouldnt the LC termies get a charge bonus if the ASM does? Also, they are a crap load more durable than the ASM (and SS termies even mroe so, which is the config one should use).

Zeteki: Vulkan can not take a command squad

I would suppose it's really a matter of what you like better between assault marines and termies, well yeah but can't you put him with one? I don't really see why you couldn't and if you can't I'm going to slap my friend because I seriously hated fighting vulkan with feel no pain

cheapest possible way you can do vulkan and a command squad which makes a mini deathstar is:

Vulkan
190

Captain
Artificer Armour
Thunder Hammer
Digital Weapons
Combi-Melta
Hellfire Rounds
175

Command Squad (5 man)
Company Champion w/ Thunder Hammer
Flamers x 1
Melta Guns x 2
Storm Shields x 3
DT: Rhino
265

630 points for a proper deathstar squad.

As opposed to:

Vulkan
190

Terminator Librarian
140
Null Zone & Avenger

Terminator Assault Squad
200

Land Raider Crusader w/ MM
260

790 points

Corennus wrote:cheapest possible way you can do vulkan and a command squad which makes a mini deathstar is:

Vulkan
190

Captain
Artificer Armour
Thunder Hammer
Digital Weapons
Combi-Melta
Hellfire Rounds
175

Command Squad (5 man)
Company Champion w/ Thunder Hammer
Flamers x 1
Melta Guns x 2
Storm Shields x 3
DT: Rhino
265

630 points for a proper deathstar squad.

As opposed to:

Vulkan
190

Terminator Librarian
140
Null Zone & Avenger

Terminator Assault Squad
200

Land Raider Crusader w/ MM
260

790 points

That is abit more expensive for a supposed deathstar dont you think? You shouldn't overload on the points. for example
Vulkan
Captain(storm shield, relic blade, artificier armor)
command squad (apothecary, champion with stormshield, veterans all with powerweapons)
Cost 540pts cheaper and still effective want melta bombs? That makes it 565pts it is still cheaper and effective. So you dont need all these big things for your guys sometimes less is more. Simply food for thought

Weejock wrote:Can you deploy in a non-dedicated transport at the start of the game?

Because jump-pack less assault squad you could get an ablative rhino for free whilst AS sits in the LR. Or some empty drop pods to screen and contest

Any unit can deploy in any vehicle that is a transport so long as its not a dedicated transport for another unit. The only unit that can deploy inside a dedicated transport is the unit that transport is dedicated to, however a Land Raider taken as a heavy support choice is not dedicated and thus any unit can deploy inside of it at the start of the game. The DAVU Falcon is a perfect example of this.

Corennus wrote:cheapest possible way you can do vulkan and a command squad which makes a mini deathstar is:

Vulkan
190

Captain
Artificer Armour
Thunder Hammer
Digital Weapons
Combi-Melta
Hellfire Rounds
175

Command Squad (5 man)
Company Champion w/ Thunder Hammer
Flamers x 1
Melta Guns x 2
Storm Shields x 3
DT: Rhino
265

630 points for a proper deathstar squad.

As opposed to:

Vulkan
190

Terminator Librarian
140
Null Zone & Avenger

Terminator Assault Squad
200

Land Raider Crusader w/ MM
260

790 points

Except the second one doesnt need the lib, dropping it down to 650pts. And only command squads on bikes work as a deathstar, rhino/razor command squads dont work.

Also, assault marines arent even real CC specialists. Lack of an invul, average init, 1 special CC weapon... theyre really just normal marines with 1 extra attack. Not very good.

And I dont really see how the assault squads are faster than terms when theyre in LR's... they have the same speed.

Chaplain+assault marines was the bomb in 4th ed. In 5th ed they're a joke, when you can get 8 THSS terminators for the same cost.

Jabbdo wrote:

Except the second one doesnt need the lib, dropping it down to 650pts. And only command squads on bikes work as a deathstar, rhino/razor command squads dont work.

Also, assault marines arent even real CC specialists. Lack of an invul, average init, 1 special CC weapon... theyre really just normal marines with 1 extra attack. Not very good.And I dont really see how the assault squads are faster than terms when theyre in LR's... they have the same speed..

Well a command squad on bikes isnt the only thing that screams deathstar because volkan in there with his 2+/3++ as well as feel no pain chances are you arent going to do very much add that to the captain who should have artificier armor and a storm shield that is another 2+/3++ guy walkin around with them. All bikes do is add some speed and if you get hit by a S8 weapon the T5 goes back to 4 and the feel no pain is worthless so it is more of a waste of points IMO. So you are saying that assault marines which are A3 on the charge are not good? Dude they are cheaper, they can deepstike too and you still only get ten. Also for one less attack you can give sarge a power weapon and storm shield, for a 3+/3++ and only 220 points total for ten of them. so what they do not have a ++ that dosent mean they suck, termies have a crap ++ to begin with (unless they are assault but to give them thunderhammers and stormshields forgoes your shooting) also assault marines are faster not only with movement but with I and that is huge, especially because you do not have to waste another 200+ points for a land raider

In vanilla lists, by and large, assault marines suck. Its just how it is. Not only do they take up a valuable FA slot, they dont even perform well where they should be, which is in combat.The only army there is a place for them is in BA lists, as BA can get them as troops.

THSS terminators are one of the bests units in the game. Period. Please, PLEASE, nobody say that this is not the case, because you will be laughed off the face of the earth.

Deathstar command squads only work on bikes because:

Bikes give them speed. In razors as soon as their transport is shot down, they will never catch anything, ergo they are useless. Also when they are on foot, they can be torrented by mass firepower easily, which brings us to our next point:

Bikes give them t5. This is HUGE. They gain double the survivability against str3, and 33% better against str4. Add that to FnP, and they are actually hard to torrent.

Back to the assault marines, sure, they are cheaper, but that doesnt help much when the same amount of THSS in pts can easily kill them, or pretty much anything else in the game for that matter.

Jabbdo wrote:In vanilla lists, by and large, assault marines suck. Its just how it is. Not only do they take up a valuable FA slot, they dont even perform well where they should be, which is in combat.The only army there is a place for them is in BA lists, as BA can get them as troops.

THSS terminators are one of the bests units in the game. Period. Please, PLEASE, nobody say that this is not the case, because you will be laughed off the face of the earth.

Deathstar command squads only work on bikes because:

Bikes give them speed. In razors as soon as their transport is shot down, they will never catch anything, ergo they are useless. Also when they are on foot, they can be torrented by mass firepower easily, which brings us to our next point:

Bikes give them t5. This is HUGE. They gain double the survivability against str3, and 33% better against str4. Add that to FnP, and they are actually hard to torrent.

Back to the assault marines, sure, they are cheaper, but that doesnt help much when the same amount of THSS in pts can easily kill them, or pretty much anything else in the game for that matter.

Are you sure it really is the best idea in the world to compare assault termies to assault marines? The terminators are elite the assault marines are FA big difference, and the FA for marines is not too heavily contested. And yes I do belive that terminators are a waste of points especially in a 1750 point game sure they have a 2+/3++(if assault termies with SS/TH) but the thing is they are still one wound and you are investing too many points for 5-10 guys (more if you take 5 because that land raider is expensive provided you take it) that only have one wound pretty much your entire strategy will endup meaning they must live. And I never even said anything about a transport and if so I'd likely go with a drop pod for them, the idea is that they will soak up intensive firepower because that makes it so the rest of your army can do their thing. And if they are not Assault termies then you have tac terms with a crap 5++ so that dosent do much for you when your hit by that power weapon by someone who is superior. Also why would you complain about the assault marines with average I? when terms are I1? These are space marines they aren't exactly known for I5+. Also chaplain with assault marines is still really good, you mean to say that 10assault marines with a chaplain able to re-roll misses are bad? Dude be it 4th or 5th that isnt a joke. And back to bikes yeah sure they can get shotup and stuff but when you see the guard artillery, SM orbital bombardment, Tyranid MC, Dark Eldar lance spam. All of which are common among those armies none of that will matter you can kiss your T5 and FNP goodbye

A few things.

You're the one who is comparing assault marines to THSS terms, I pointed out that THSS terms are far superior, as anyone with some 40k experience should be able to see.

Marine FA is very contested, as here you will find one of the most underrated yet useful units in the codex: the MM HF land speeder.

Who are you taking a drop pod for?? Mind clearing that up?

For a unit to be considered a combat specialist it needs a few things: high init, an invulnerable save, survivability (high T or a good save), and powerful attacks (high strength, armor ignoring etc). Speed is also a bonus.
A unit can have all of those, or it can be better and some and lack others, but it needs at least 2-3 to be considered effective. THSS terms have survivability, a ridiculously good invul, and VERY powerful attacks. They lack speed and initiative. Assault marines have speed. Thats it. See where I'm going here?

Lets compare. For 215pts, I can get a 10 man assault squad w/ a sarge with a PF. For 15pts CHEAPER, I can get 5 THSS terms. Guess who would win if they ended up fighting each other?? No prizes for correct guesses. Say I put the chaplain w/ JP in. Thats now 340pts. I can get 8 THSS terms for that price, and save 20pts. Guess who wins that combat?

And on your command squad bike analysis. Its just wrong. I don't even know where to begin. You say that I shouldn't take bikes because str8 will cut through it anyway. Really? Although bikes increase my survivability by a lot I shouldn't take them because there's something that will negate it? You do realise there's something that negates everything in 40k? Do you think your opponent will not torrent your command squad on foot? He will. f you take them on bikes, he HAS to fire his str8 at them to kill them, instead of just having guardsman Joe shoot company champion Jim in the face with his lasgun.

Jabbdo wrote:A few things.

You're the one who is comparing assault marines to THSS terms, I pointed out that THSS terms are far superior, as anyone with some 40k experience should be able to see.

Marine FA is very contested, as here you will find one of the most underrated yet useful units in the codex: the MM HF land speeder.

Who are you taking a drop pod for?? Mind clearing that up?

For a unit to be considered a combat specialist it needs a few things: high init, an invulnerable save, survivability (high T or a good save), and powerful attacks (high strength, armor ignoring etc). Speed is also a bonus.
A unit can have all of those, or it can be better and some and lack others, but it needs at least 2-3 to be considered effective. THSS terms have survivability, a ridiculously good invul, and VERY powerful attacks. They lack speed and initiative. Assault marines have speed. Thats it. See where I'm going here?

Lets compare. For 215pts, I can get a 10 man assault squad w/ a sarge with a PF. For 15pts CHEAPER, I can get 5 THSS terms. Guess who would win if they ended up fighting each other?? No prizes for correct guesses. Say I put the chaplain w/ JP in. Thats now 340pts. I can get 8 THSS terms for that price, and save 20pts. Guess who wins that combat?

And on your command squad bike analysis. Its just wrong. I don't even know where to begin. You say that I shouldn't take bikes because str8 will cut through it anyway. Really? Although bikes increase my survivability by a lot I shouldn't take them because there's something that will negate it? You do realise there's something that negates everything in 40k? Do you think your opponent will not torrent your command squad on foot? He will. f you take them on bikes, he HAS to fire his str8 at them to kill them, instead of just having guardsman Joe shoot company champion Jim in the face with his lasgun.

Umm why would you give an assault marine captain a powerfist that is stupid it's be better to give him a PW and SS and now your pitting termies against assault marines in theoretical battles where does this make any sense? And there still is a chance those assault marines can beat the termies so no guess is the right one by any means. The reason for saying this is that S8+ blasts (large or normal) or just S8+ in general is much more common than you think, and yes I do realise this I'm not an idiot, and the guardsman could still kill the champion with his lasgun fnp and a good save dosent mean it cannot happen. And I would give the foot command squad a drop pod cause you know they can do that, well assault marines can too if (for free) if you get rid of their jump pack(not sure if that is a good idea) Also they are all still SPACE MARINES they are not exactly a high I army and are you trying to say T4 A2 3+ WS4 S4 is bad? A CC specialist can be defined in different ways by many different people so your ideal specialist description isn't any more valid than mine.

Are you trolling? I can't tell.

Giving an assault marine sarge PF is far better is you have the points to spare, it lets them deal with a wider variety of situations.

I'm pitting the termis and assault squad against each other because they are the units we are comparing, although we could compare them against any other unit and see who does better. I challenge you to find a case where the assault squad does better barring grots of course

In fact I can mathammer it and prove to you that the THSS squad wins most of the time.

I never said str8 is uncommon. I'm saying that giving your command squad bikes increases two of the CC specialist requirement, survivability (t5) and speed. Sure, str8 cuts through it, but as I said, if you choose your army with the mentality that "something will negate this anyway, I wont take it" you'll find that you can't take any unit in the game, as there is always something that will beat it.

I wouldn't give the foot command squad a drop pod, unless I wanted them to die. Is that what you want?

I think the criteria that I stated for CC specialists would be agreed upon by most experienced players.To be considered a CC specialist a unit also has to be able to go toe to toe with the best units the enemy has to offer. 10 assault marines can't do that. No matter how you argue it, they just can't. Giving the sarge a 3++ doesn't change anything.

Large numbers of attacks dont make you awesome in combat. Having and extra attack over a tactical marine doesn't make you good in combat, it makes you at best subpar. If grots had 10 attacks each, would they be CC specialists? No. They WOULD be awesome. But they would still suck.

Jabbdo wrote:Are you trolling? I can't tell.

Giving an assault marine sarge PF is far better is you have the points to spare, it lets them deal with a wider variety of situations.

I'm pitting the termis and assault squad against each other because they are the units we are comparing, although we could compare them against any other unit and see who does better. I challenge you to find a case where the assault squad does better barring grots of course

In fact I can mathammer it and prove to you that the THSS squad wins most of the time.

I never said str8 is uncommon. I'm saying that giving your command squad bikes increases two of the CC specialist requirement, survivability (t5) and speed. Sure, str8 cuts through it, but as I said, if you choose your army with the mentality that "something will negate this anyway, I wont take it" you'll find that you can't take any unit in the game, as there is always something that will beat it.

I wouldn't give the foot command squad a drop pod, unless I wanted them to die. Is that what you want?

I think the criteria that I stated for CC specialists would be agreed upon by most experienced players.To be considered a CC specialist a unit also has to be able to go toe to toe with the best units the enemy has to offer. 10 assault marines can't do that. No matter how you argue it, they just can't. Giving the sarge a 3++ doesn't change anything.

Large numbers of attacks dont make you awesome in combat. Having and extra attack over a tactical marine doesn't make you good in combat, it makes you at best subpar. If grots had 10 attacks each, would they be CC specialists? No. They WOULD be awesome. But they would still suck.

No I'm really not trolling, thats rather childish to say. To be fair yes you can spare points but the main issue is that IMO if you take a powerfist for assault marines you are almost accepting you will make a bad move with them and that powerfist will be their only way out, if you wanted them to tankbust give them melta bombs easy, other than that I see them mostly anti-infantry shock cc specialists. You do realise mathammer is pretty much useless if dice are involved in anything than no matter what mathammer you have those dice can say you were wrong, so seriously do not try to guess what only dice can say. I don't pick any army with such a mentality I just evaluate the pros/cons and find other options that suit me better. And are you suggesting that I would drop pod that behind enemy lines alone? Umm no that would be a terrible idea I would drop them behind lines true but I'd also be dropping three dreads too(ironclad or regular dosent matter to me) so that they are not alone and the enemy will have 4 heavy hitting units behind them while the rest of the army can do what they need to do. Umm I doubt that most experienced players see everything that way I think most experienced players find the good in any and everything and try different things afterall generally an experienced player will like to mix it up once in awhile so your just stating an opinion which is no more valid than mine. Well giving the sarge a 3++ gives him extra survivability some would do that some wouldn't simple as that. If large numbers of attacks dosent make you awesome in combat go tell that to an ork player about their boyz or a chaos player about their berzerkers, or a daemon player about their daemonettes. And I cannot prove where assault marines do better because you cannot prove infantry where termies are better simply because the dice control everything in the moment. Also just for the record I don't play space marines but I do know quite a bit about them.

TH/SS termies are better than assault marines because both do anti-infantry but only one can tackle death-stars and every other thing SM field short of a tri-lascannon pred can do anti-infantry just fine. Adding re-rolls from a chaplain doesn't change the fact that the assault marines will roll over and die when they get locked in combat with a MC or a walker unlike the TH/SS termies. And if your taking vulcan anyway why would you go without the thunder hammer buff by going with an inferior unit.

Jabbdo is right. TH/SS Terms are far superior to Assault Marines. They are one of the few things that set the vanilla codex apart from SW/BA these days (we get them cheaper IIRC). And Vulkan making them mastercrafted makes it a no brainer. I run 10 TH/SS assault termies in land raider redeemers. Yes, they will be forced to roll save after save and die eventually, but if you use them right they will destroy anything you want them to before they die.

Yes, it is possible for the TH/SS terms to get bogged down by massed Ork boys/ gaunts/ ect. But if you let that happen you are making huge tactical errors. With tons of options for twin linked flamers and heavy flamers in a Vulkan list, those hordes should not be getting near your TH/SS terms. The terminators are for killing the big fish: MCs, vehicles, Heavy infantry, death stars, ect. Do that, and they will make their points back and then some.

If you want Assault Marines, pick up a BA codex. For a Vulkan list, try MM/HF Land speeders or MM attack bikes with those Fast Attack slots. The speeders are a phenomenal multi-role support unit and would recommended them over the bikes.

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cromwest wrote:TH/SS termies are better than assault marines because both do anti-infantry but only one can tackle death-stars and every other thing SM field short of a tri-lascannon pred can do anti-infantry just fine. Adding re-rolls from a chaplain doesn't change the fact that the assault marines will roll over and die when they get locked in combat with a MC or a walker unlike the TH/SS termies. And if your taking vulcan anyway why would you go without the thunder hammer buff by going with an inferior unit.

Like I have been saying over and over again (though I do understand your point) this is simply opinion based everyone has different thoughts who knows maybe someone thinks dreads are better. Well technically no it does not they can do anti-tank against that walker they can have melta bombs. And as for an MC those are tough shells to crack however assault marines can do so not very likely but still possibility regardless, such as the possibility those termies could get beat to death as well. It's all a matter of preferance (and mostly that FNP that makes the unit not as inferior as you would believe, not to mention a captain in there. Throw in some melta bombs and you have quite a force to reckon with) now drop pod those suckers behind the enemy with some dropped dreads and your enemy has some serious pain comming to him/her

Also I dont want any of that because I DO NOT play marines (or any imperial force) as I had already said so no I'm not going to get a BA dex and I'm not going to do any of that stuff for a vulcan list, yes landspeeders can be good however so can anything else I fail to understand why people say this is better than this and whatnot, because it technically is not true, or you are comparing vastly different roles

You keep saying its a possibility that your assault squads will kill dreads, or beat enemy deathstars, and yes they might, but the possibility is very low, unlike with THSS, who eat walkers, MC's, deathstars and pretty much everything. If you choose an army with the mentality that "this unit MIGHT so this" then just spam scouts, you MIGHT win.

Ork boyz arent CC specialists. No invul + no survivability + weak attacks = uh oh.

Same with daemonettes. No survivability, weak attacks, and horribly overcosted. Utter crap.

Berzerkers are passable, but lack of an invul hurts them, and they cost a bit too much too. They arent survivable or powerful enough to take on enemy CC specialists.

Its not an opinion, its a fact. Like the null zone librarian, TH/SS terms with Vulkan is one of the few things left that the Vanilla codex has going for it these days over BA/SW.

Command squad death stars are just too expensive imo to justify. Most people have weapons to cut through FnP anyway.

And if you want assault marines, your better off using the BA dex (can use counts as for any chapter). Using the Vanilla dex and taking assault marines on top of troops and using precious FA slots is not viable imo.

ShadowZetki wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

cromwest wrote:TH/SS termies are better than assault marines because both do anti-infantry but only one can tackle death-stars and every other thing SM field short of a tri-lascannon pred can do anti-infantry just fine. Adding re-rolls from a chaplain doesn't change the fact that the assault marines will roll over and die when they get locked in combat with a MC or a walker unlike the TH/SS termies. And if your taking vulcan anyway why would you go without the thunder hammer buff by going with an inferior unit.

Like I have been saying over and over again (though I do understand your point) this is simply opinion based everyone has different thoughts who knows maybe someone thinks dreads are better. Well technically no it does not they can do anti-tank against that walker they can have melta bombs. And as for an MC those are tough shells to crack however assault marines can do so not very likely but still possibility regardless, such as the possibility those termies could get beat to death as well. It's all a matter of preferance (and mostly that FNP that makes the unit not as inferior as you would believe, not to mention a captain in there. Throw in some melta bombs and you have quite a force to reckon with) now drop pod those suckers behind the enemy with some dropped dreads and your enemy has some serious pain comming to him/her

Also I dont want any of that because I DO NOT play marines (or any imperial force) as I had already said so no I'm not going to get a BA dex and I'm not going to do any of that stuff for a vulcan list, yes landspeeders can be good however so can anything else I fail to understand why people say this is better than this and whatnot, because it technically is not true, or you are comparing vastly different roles

What are you on about here? How does your assault squad have FnP, and who is this assault squad captain you keep referring to??

Actually it is possible to say a unit is better than another unit, and if you dispute that we might a well end this conversation.

Really, saying something MIGHT be able to do this is a very unconvincing way to backup arguments, and a very foolish way to build an army. My grots MIGHT be able to kill 10THSS in combat, but will they ever? No.

What do you mean by "what are you on about here?" I don't understand the question sorry, and I have had many past experiences fighting vulkan with a command squad/captain it is brutal. No not the assault squad the command squad, and assault captain? No the captain in that command squad too, (unless you meant how I refered to the sarge with the assault marines as a captain I believe I did that my mistake) Well no not really because think of it like this, every unit has different uses, every unit. So it's about how you use them in what they can do, and how bad or good you roll on the dice to determine anything, that is why I say no unit is better than any other they all just function differently no matter the army.

scubasteve04 wrote:Its not an opinion, its a fact. Like the null zone librarian, TH/SS terms with Vulkan is one of the few things left that the Vanilla codex has going for it these days over BA/SW.

Command squad death stars are just too expensive imo to justify. Most people have weapons to cut through FnP anyway.

And if you want assault marines, your better off using the BA dex (can use counts as for any chapter). Using the Vanilla dex and taking assault marines on top of troops and using precious FA slots is not viable imo.

Well said.

IMO command squad deathstars work, but only on bikes, in an all bike list. Otherwise skip them and go to sternguard if you want podding fire support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I meant "what are you talking about here?"

You referred to the assault squad then suddenly started talking about a command squad without saying you were talking about them. Was confusing.

BTW, daemonettes suck in combat.

Ork boyz too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadowZetki wrote: Well no not really because think of it like this, every unit has different uses, every unit. So it's about how you use them in what they can do, and how bad or good you roll on the dice to determine anything, that is why I say no unit is better than any other they all just function differently no matter the army.

Yes, but if you are using a unit in a specific role (shock assault/CC specialist) then why wouldnt you take a unit that performs that role better for the same cost?

Well I wouldn't say daemonettes are too bad you figure I6 A3 Rending, and assault/defensive grenades isnt bad. However they are pricey for T3 and their ++ is only a 5 which isn't good, but better than nothing I guess. As for boyz hmm that is rather difficult, they are T4 but their armor is paper 6+ their LD is bad however in numbers they are fearless, they are cheap 6points, and 3A but S3(4 if you get the charge) the main issue is they are bad at times, however they are the bread and butter of your army(in a sense) Oh sorry about that, there were a few times when I was trying to keep up with the conversation and I got alittle lost or forgot to imput something my bad. Hmm not really sure I mean I will say this if I played marines I would use assault marines for fun (sometimes in a competitive battle) I would like to mix things up often give everything it's fair shot, but truthfully I would use CC termies competitive however I would not want my plan to revolve around them can we agree that a necron lord with warscythe gaurded by 4 Pariahs is a problem for termies though?(S5 PW and no ++ is scary to be attacked by)