Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright I have a couple questions regarding Open-topped fast vehicles.

So lets say I have a unit of Dark Eldar Wyches in a raider. The way I understand the rules are that I can move 12" disembark then charge. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again same scenario as before except I have warriros instead. Now again I move 12" can I fire all the weapons in the unit or only the ones that would qualify as defensive weapons, with the dark lance on the vehicle or the dark lance in the squad? (because I can fire one normal weapon)

-Ryan

The_HoFF wrote:So lets say I have a unit of Dark Eldar Wyches in a raider. The way I understand the rules are that I can move 12" disembark then charge. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I refuse to correct you because you are so not wrong it hurts! (Yes, you are correct.) You can even run since Wyches are Fleet (iirc).

The_HoFF wrote:Again same scenario as before except I have warriros instead. Now again I move 12" can I fire all the weapons in the unit or only the ones that would qualify as defensive weapons, with the dark lance on the vehicle or the dark lance in the squad? (because I can fire one normal weapon)

Page 66, "Fire Points", Paragraph 3.

This applies to open topped, fast or any other kind of vehicles as well.

The unit inside does not use the vehicles rules. The vehicle may be able to move 12" and fire (as it is a Fast vehicle), but the unit inside is still bound by the rule on page 66 I just mentioned.

And the fact that weapons are defensive or not have no bearing on this shooting.

Thanks very much for the feedback!
-Ryan

calypso2ts wrote:And the fact that weapons are defensive or not have no bearing on this shooting.

Especially since only the vehicle weapons are classed as defensive, etc. The weapons carried by the embarked passengers are just that, ie carried by the embarked passengers.

Gwar! wrote:

The_HoFF wrote:So lets say I have a unit of Dark Eldar Wyches in a raider. The way I understand the rules are that I can move 12" disembark then charge. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I refuse to correct you because you are so not wrong it hurts! (Yes, you are correct.) You can even run since Wyches are Fleet (iirc).

The_HoFF wrote:Again same scenario as before except I have warriros instead. Now again I move 12" can I fire all the weapons in the unit or only the ones that would qualify as defensive weapons, with the dark lance on the vehicle or the dark lance in the squad? (because I can fire one normal weapon)

Page 66, "Fire Points", Paragraph 3.

This applies to open topped, fast or any other kind of vehicles as well.

The unit inside does not use the vehicles rules. The vehicle may be able to move 12" and fire (as it is a Fast vehicle), but the unit inside is still bound by the rule on page 66 I just mentioned.

So is a fast vehicle that moved 12" classed as crusing speed or combat speed.

deejaybainbridge wrote:So is a fast vehicle that moved 12" classed as crusing speed or combat speed.

It's classed the exact same as any other vehicle that moved 12".

Gwar! wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:So is a fast vehicle that moved 12" classed as crusing speed or combat speed.

It's classed the exact same as any other vehicle that moved 12".

I thought the rules for fast vehicles and shooting state they get the 1st 6" free effectively, therefore moving each of the limitations up by 6.

Take it this is incorrect!

edit: to avoid stupid confusion!

Yes, that is incorrect.

Whether you are fast or not, move over 6" and passengers may not fire while embarked.

deejaybainbridge wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:So is a fast vehicle that moved 12" classed as crusing speed or combat speed.

It's classed the exact same as any other vehicle that moved 12".

I thought the rules for fast attack vehicles and shooting state they get the 1st 6" free effectively, therefore moving each of the limitations up by 6.

Take it this is incorrect!

Well first of all, they're not "fast attack" vehicles, they're "fast" vehicles. "Fast attack" is a force organization chart slot. "Fast" is a type of vehicle.

Second, no, "fast" vehicles don't get any movement "for free." They move exactly like other vehicles, with two exceptions. 1) They can move flat out up to 18", or 24" if they're also skimmers. 2) They can fire all of their weapons even when moving at "combat speed," (6" or less), and can fire ONE weapon (and all defensive weapons) when moving at "cruising speed" (6.0000001"-12").

SaintHazard wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:So is a fast vehicle that moved 12" classed as crusing speed or combat speed.

It's classed the exact same as any other vehicle that moved 12".

I thought the rules for fast attack vehicles and shooting state they get the 1st 6" free effectively, therefore moving each of the limitations up by 6.

Take it this is incorrect!

Well first of all, they're not "fast attack" vehicles, they're "fast" vehicles. "Fast attack" is a force organization chart slot. "Fast" is a type of vehicle.

Second, no, "fast" vehicles don't get any movement "for free." They move exactly like other vehicles, with two exceptions. 1) They can move flat out up to 18", or 24" if they're also skimmers. 2) They can fire all of their weapons even when moving at "combat speed," (6" or less), and can fire ONE weapon (and all defensive weapons) when moving at "cruising speed" (6.0000001"-12").

Wow, calm your horses, check my first comment and i put FAST VEHICLES, sorry for copying a email sent to me by an Ork friend. just trying to celar some rules for him! jeez

deejaybainbridge, you are the one who needs to calm down. He wasn't being rude or snappy. It is a legitimate correction, since not all Fast Vehicles are Fast Attack.

Gwar! wrote:deejaybainbridge, you are the one who needs to calm down. He wasn't being rude or snappy. It is a legitimate correction, since not all Fast Vehicles are Fast Attack.

Tharts not the clarification he made!

Well first of all, they're not "fast attack" vehicles, they're "fast" vehicles. "Fast attack" is a force organization chart slot. "Fast" is a type of vehicle.

He's telling me the difference between a vehicle and a slot on the force organisation chart. If what he meant to say was not all fast vehicles are fast attack units then he should have said that!

deejaybainbridge wrote:

Gwar! wrote:deejaybainbridge, you are the one who needs to calm down. He wasn't being rude or snappy. It is a legitimate correction, since not all Fast Vehicles are Fast Attack.

Tharts not the clarification he made!

Well first of all, they're not "fast attack" vehicles, they're "fast" vehicles. "Fast attack" is a force organization chart slot. "Fast" is a type of vehicle.

He's telling me the difference between a vehicle and a slot on the force organisation chart. If what he meant to say was not all fast vehicles are fast attack units then he should have said that!

He did say that, by clarifying that Fast Attack vehicles are not the same as Fast Vehicle.

Sheesh!

Gwar! wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:

Gwar! wrote:deejaybainbridge, you are the one who needs to calm down. He wasn't being rude or snappy. It is a legitimate correction, since not all Fast Vehicles are Fast Attack.

Tharts not the clarification he made!

Well first of all, they're not "fast attack" vehicles, they're "fast" vehicles. "Fast attack" is a force organization chart slot. "Fast" is a type of vehicle.

He's telling me the difference between a vehicle and a slot on the force organisation chart. If what he meant to say was not all fast vehicles are fast attack units then he should have said that!

He did say that, by clarifying that Fast Attack vehicles are not the same as Fast Vehicle.

Sheesh!

this is why i stopped using this forum!

Wow. You really need to cool your balls, dude. All I was saying is that "Fast Attack" is not a type of vehicle. "Fast," on the other hand, is. And I was polite about it. If you look at your own post, which you quoted, you called them "fast attack" vehicles. There is no such thing. You're the one going off the rails about it.

oh dear!!!

Ok fair cop. i made a mistake in my second post as i copyed the question straight out of an email sent to me by a mate who plays Orks. However what i was complaining about and what i find is generally the problem with this forum is you failed to read any other post by myself, and instead choose to use language that underminded me! Had you read my earlier post you would have seen i was talking about fast vehicles and the 'attack' was a simple typo. Now yes i may have been a bit overzelous with my response but having ignored the forum for the best part of two months and then to have one of the first replys to a question said to me like i didn't have a clue cheesed me off a little. But we all make mistakes.

Forum crossed wires or whatever! it's all good by me!

No big deal if it was a case of crossed wires.

However, regardless of whether or not you "have a clue" (and I have a sneaking suspicion that you do), "Fast" versus "Fast Attack" is an important distinction. Semantics make all the difference sometimes when it comes to the rules of this game.

For example, "causes Instant Death" versus "causes the target to be slain outright."

Different words that, in the real world, mean effectively the same thing, but mean very different things in the context of the rules.

yeah i agree, it is all about the wording, that is key, and yes i added the attack bit so can understand the confusion.

But i do feel a lot of people on this forum read threads half way down and thus this sorta thing happens. Reading from the top the attack bit was a clear mistake, and as you read the question from that point you didn't answer my question regarding the troops within the fast vehicle and instead told me the basics again, and i suppose thats what bothered me, but hey, these things happen.

so back on topic, fast vehicles only count as combat speed to 6" not 12". and are cruzing speed from 6" to 18/24" depending on type? and not 12" to 18/24"?

Cruising speed is anywhere from 6.0000001" to 12". More than 12" is moving flat out. Your maximum move is 18" with a normal "Fast" vehicle, or 24" with a "Fast" skimmer.

Combat speed is anything greater than zero, less than or equal to 6".

Cool, we had it that the troops within the vehicle counted as another weapon the vehical had, and thus could fire one weapon (the troops) whilst moving upto 12".

Gwar cleared that up refering me to p66 and they work the same for troops within as any other troop transport with regards to shooting. Something we had missed!

If this is not the case then that makes my life easier, ha.

SaintHazard wrote:Cruising speed is anywhere from 6.0000001" to 12". More than 12" is moving flat out. Your maximum move is 18" with a normal "Fast" vehicle, or 24" with a "Fast" skimmer.

Combat speed is anything greater than zero, less than or equal to 6".

Does this mean that a Fire Prism with Star Engines can move an additional 12" on top of the 24" flat out, giving it a max "gtfo of my way" capacity of 36"? If I'm a slow, insert insult here-"..."

PerilsoftheBrush wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Cruising speed is anywhere from 6.0000001" to 12". More than 12" is moving flat out. Your maximum move is 18" with a normal "Fast" vehicle, or 24" with a "Fast" skimmer.

Combat speed is anything greater than zero, less than or equal to 6".

Does this mean that a Fire Prism with Star Engines can move an additional 12" on top of the 24" flat out, giving it a max "gtfo of my way" capacity of 36"? If I'm a slow, insert insult here-"..."

Yep, its the same as, say, a DE Raider with Enhanced Aethersails. Although note that they are worded differently, the overall effect is the same.

Ive never played star engines as being usable after going flatout, as you're required to forgo shooting to use the engines, and you have no allowance to fire any weapons when moving flatout, therefore no way to do something "instead of".

The GW FAQ would disagree with you,

Q. The Star Engines description says the vehicle may
move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this
mean that they cannot make this extra move if they
are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being
shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the
Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn,
and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it
may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use
them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra
move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting
phase.

I believe i said thats how i play it, not what the contradictory to clear raw faq ruling says.

If you feel like breaking various opther game mechanics by applying a contradictory ruling thats fine with me, but most people ive played with over the last decade generally ignore the contradictory rulings in faqs when clear as day raw is present.

The thing is, you use star engines instead of shooting. You are not required to be able to shoot in order to use them.

This is true of all other similar abilities and, as such, the FAQ is not contradictory.

For example, you do not need to be able to shoot in order to run. (if you did, then models with a heavy weapon would be unable to move then run)

Scott-S6 wrote:The thing is, you use star engines instead of shooting. You are not required to be able to shoot in order to use them.

This is true of all other similar abilities and, as such, the FAQ is not contradictory.

For example, you do not need to be able to shoot in order to run. (if you did, then models with a heavy weapon would be unable to move then run)

This is a good point.

kill dem stunties wrote:I believe i said thats how i play it, not what the contradictory to clear raw faq ruling says.

If you feel like breaking various opther game mechanics by applying a contradictory ruling thats fine with me, but most people ive played with over the last decade generally ignore the contradictory rulings in faqs when clear as day raw is present.

As Scott noted, it's not contradictory to RAW.

I also remind you that for purposes of discussions in YMDC, the GW FAQs have the full weight of official rules. Ref point 2, here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Scott-S6 wrote:(if you did, then models with a heavy weapon would be unable to move then run)

Makes sense to me: the weapons are too heavy to be able to run while carrying them



Tongue firmly inserted in cheek