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Let me be clear right off the bat - I'm not saying that assault squads are useless. I'm not yet experienced enough of a player to make this determination. My question is good faith - I do not understand what they are useful for.

They have essentially the same stats as regular space marines, but aren't troops so can't hold objectives. They also have less weapon options (granted, I understand why tactically a fast assault squad should not have a lascannon as an option). At 100 points for 5 marines, I can't understand in what situation you would use them over other choices: Scouts would allow you to hold objectives, Vanguard Vets are only 25 points more have have double the attacks and far better wargear, Bikes and Land Speeders cost about the same with way better options...

What's the deal, here? I'm sure they are useful, I just don't know how.

for SM theyre pretty bad no doubt, for BA as a troops choice and the -35 pt transport for dropping packs theyre pretty amazing. Also they get +1 attack for 2 ccw can have 2 special weapons

These are a great counter assault unit for a gunline army, fast enough to get to where you need them, where they can flame an opponent (if they are not in assault) or just charge in and not be subject to any attacks since they are joining a pre-existing combat. Ten man Tac squads supported by these response units are great, because the Tacs probably make it through a round of combat.

They don't look that great on paper, but double the movement and the ability to just leap over terrain that blocks LOS is amazingly useful.

Their close combat weapons gives them the extra attack, so they get 3 attacks on the charge. Against non-cc units this can be devestating with their higher then average stat lines. I've used a single assualt squad to literally destroy an entire Tau army before.

Now in this edition, it's not quite as easy to do that, since you can't consolidate into cc with another unit like you used to be able to do.

They are also great counter charge units. If you get an ork mob slamming into your line of marines, these guys can come in and offer a very solid counter punch. If you want to kit them out with flamers, their fast speed makes it easier for them to get into the face of the horde units you want to whittle down before they can get into your gun lines.

They have a lot of uses, you've just gotta be careful with how you use them. Take a regular squad and slam it into some genestealers, or Khorne Berserkers, and you just threw those points away. Into a unit of Necrons warriors, or a squad of IG, and their win.

rdlb wrote:These are a great counter assault unit for a gunline army, fast enough to get to where you need them, where they can flame an opponent (if they are not in assault) or just charge in and not be subject to any attacks since they are joining a pre-existing combat.

This is wrong, as they can be attacked by anyone in base to base with them.

I agree with jdjamesdean; BA Assault units differ entirely than SM because theyre Troops and have the Descent of Angels Special Rule

In short they're useless =P

*flame shield - ON*

Let's please leave Blood Angels out of this. For one thing, they have completely different rules and wargear options which dramatically alter their usefulness. Additionally, as others have pointed out, they are not Fast Attack in the BA codex; they are classified as Troops. As such, it's like saying in response to questioning the usefulness of Assault squads that "no, Land Raiders are pretty awesome" - they are completely different things. I'm talking just plain vanilla SM Assault Squads.

I hadn't considered the extra attacks from dual CCW's. I've only used these guys once, and typically use Assault Terminators for up-close work when I rarely play my own Space Marines.

You just said it yourself. The assault terminators work better as a counter charge unit. or a Dread. Both of which are far more cheaper than a 10 man ASM.

The only use I can think of with them is when shrike's around.

Well they do kinda work...

...in 500 point tournaments in which HQs are optional and you can take just one troop choice. With weird rules that are not part of the usual 40k rules. I won a tournament like that with 5 Assault Marines.

But even then I use them as bait, or to contest objectives. A speeder might have done a better job, now that I think about it.

So yeah. I think they're just too soft, and being soft before arriving to pound the enemy is a bad thing. They're good with Shrike, I guess, but that's because you get a first turn charge, meaning you don't have to jump around the battlefield dodging bullets.

pg 41 BRB--"models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat must attack that unit."

So any models not in base to base can attack you if you join an existing combat, but if you attack a small squad or monstrous creature that is already engaged with someone else, it can't attack the new unit in the assault.

This is great for counter assault.

Assault marines are decent counter assault units. they arn't meant to attack dedicated CC units like Terminators, mega nobs, Banshees and the like, but they are good at what they are good at.


they are worth their points as a harrassment unit/distraction/kill all enemy that suck in CC unit.


their main issue is that Assault Termnators are much more killy and fullfill the same role while also doing another. and they compete with Speeders for slots.


they are very effective at killing low rear armor tanks, long ranged enemy units(FWs, battlesuits, broadsides, guardians, heavy weapon teams, LRBTs, Basilisks...) and contesting objectives.




It's not that they are bad, it's that there are units that are better then them in their codex/FoC slot.

I play an army that includes Shrike and three full sized units of assault marines with dual flamers and fists, which is pretty much the pinnacle of what assault marines can be with a whole army built around them, and IMO they're still overpriced and underpowered for what they can do.

They can take orks 1-1 if I get the charge (but orks always outnumber me). Against space wolves or CSM I need at least a 2-1 numerical advantage--and the charge. Against BA assault marines, well once I charged all three units plus Shrike against a unit of 10 BAs with a librarian and priest and just barely finished them off in 2 rounds with average dice (and positioning Shrike in base with the sanguinary for an I5 kill). About 3-1 advantage against BAs or units with a character, and 5 or 6 to 1 versus terminators, more if Vulkan is there. And that's getting the charge and escaping with maybe 3-5 casualties. So for a hand-to-hand unit, they're outclassed by even the basic troops of a lot of other armies.

And they can't take melta, only one power weapon/fist and they don't get meltabombs as an option like they did in the last codex. That would be awesome--30 guys with melta bombs--but only krak grenades, which are okay, but not awesome.

And if they get caught in the open, a couple of mooks with plasma guns can cripple the unit. Also they're not fearless, and if a combat against a character with a power weapon and a lot of attacks goes badly, they're trying to roll a 4 or something on 2 dice not to run. And 3d6 can carry you a long way if you're anywhere near your board edge. I recently had a full-strength unit of assault marines get caught by a thunderwolf wolf lord, lost combat by about 4, then broke and ran 15" off the table in turn 1.

Mobility is really the only major thing that they have going for them.

Ouze wrote:Let me be clear right off the bat - I'm not saying that assault squads are useless. I'm not yet experienced enough of a player to make this determination. My question is good faith - I do not understand what they are useful for.

They have essentially the same stats as regular space marines, but aren't troops so can't hold objectives. They also have less weapon options (granted, I understand why tactically a fast assault squad should not have a lascannon as an option). At 100 points for 5 marines, I can't understand in what situation you would use them over other choices: Scouts would allow you to hold objectives, Vanguard Vets are only 25 points more have have double the attacks and far better wargear, Bikes and Land Speeders cost about the same with way better options...

What's the deal, here? I'm sure they are useful, I just don't know how.

they're just one of those units thats destined to always suck. that's all. there are a few situations where they're really good - charging into orks for instance - but you can cover your bases vs. orks with flame thrower guys, who will also be useful in a far greater variety of situations. dont over analyze. if you see a unit and think "this doesnt seem all that good" it probably isnt.

5ed really put the boot to vanilla assault marines. They used to be a decent counter assault and mobile troubleshooter. Between rules changes and option changes they've become substandard compared to other units. So I pretty much agree with FI. Not much reason to take them in a vanilla SM list.

Vanguard Vets are only 25 points more have have double the attacks and far better wargear

They also lack jump packs at that price. To give them jump packs costs another 10 points per model. Once again, vanguard are viable in BA but not so much in a vanilla SM list, but that's a digression I guess.

pg 41 BRB--"models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat must attack that unit."

So any models not in base to base can attack you if you join an existing combat, but if you attack a small squad or monstrous creature that is already engaged with someone else, it can't attack the new unit in the assault.

This is great for counter assault.

You need to read the latest rule book FAQ on GWs website and also check the rulebook for what consititutes the beginning of combat. What you say is incorrect and a common error (the quoted rule is redundant as written and just causes confusion).

They're fast, and twice as offensive as Tactical Marines in assault.

The best solution to some enemy units (Reaver Jetbikes, for example), is to assault them. Assault Marines both catch such units, and kill faster once they get there.

Melta bomb delivery

hope springs eternal

Assault marines can't have meltabombs anymore. Only the sergeant can have em. One attack hitting on 6's against walkers or vehicles moving more than 6" isn't really viable antitank.

although I did have a land raider crusader get aced by a melta-bomb toting sergeant at the last tournament. pretty incredible.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Assault marines can't have meltabombs anymore. Only the sergeant can have em. One attack hitting on 6's against walkers or vehicles moving more than 6" isn't really viable antitank.

But they do make perfect Jihadist Marines!

As a BT footslogging player I use one or two small squads to tie up devastator squads/lootas/anything that can bring the pain long range, they work very well in this compactly for me.

So the bottom line here is that, if you take them, they are best used to push non-dedicated-cc off of objectives/targets of opportunity and possibly for light anti-armor work (skimmers and such) but ultimately there are better choices in the codex for that role and that price, so are a grade B or C choice, right? No melta bombs, no melta weapons, no power weapons - except for giving the sergeant a power fist or lightning claws, and that that point you could have gotten either 2 or 3 deep striking land speeders with either HB's or multimeltas.

Although this is now wandering away from "tactics" and into "wishlist" I think they could solve a great deal of the problems with this unit simply my making them a troop choice, as they have done in other codexes.

Thanks for the input. Until I started playing them, I thought gretchin sucked, and then realized they're actually awesome; I thought this was a similar situation where there is a good application for them that I simply wasn't aware of.

rdlb wrote:pg 41 BRB--"models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat must attack that unit."

So any models not in base to base can attack you if you join an existing combat, but if you attack a small squad or monstrous creature that is already engaged with someone else, it can't attack the new unit in the assault.

This is great for counter assault.

psst

if you assault me the beginning of combat starts after you get there
it's still ok at counterassault just not against a hard target but its far too pricey

The very moment people say its an "ok" unit, you know it's not =P

The main purpose they serve is getting you to pay a ton of $$$ for 10 marines that really don't hit very hard

Yuber wrote:The very moment people say its an "ok" unit, you know it's not =P

preach it brother

That sermon relies on the religious belief that things are either good or terrible. There is such a thing as a middle ground between those two concepts.

That said, yeah, assault marines are not good, at present, given what they have to go up against. Shrike helps, though, and can make them more competitive, as in Flavius' list.

Mannahnin wrote:That sermon relies on the religious belief that things are either good or terrible. There is such a thing as a middle ground between those two concepts.

That said, yeah, assault marines are not good, at present, given what they have to go up against. Shrike helps, though, and can make them more competitive, as in Flavius' list.

given the choice between terrible, ok, and good, its better to take something ok than something terrible and better still to take something good than something ok, right? you should always take the best option available to you, shouldnt you? if you're playing competitively. not saying you always have to do that. I played noise marines sunday just for the love of pink marines.

The most common reasons to field an "ok" unit in a competitive list are a) because you have found a combo and built your list to provide synergy with and boost the value of said "ok" unit, b) because using unusual units and lists frequently catches opponents out, as they are less familiar with the unit's & army's capabilities than you are, and c) because varying your play experience and using lists you come up with rather than copying from the internet is more fun.