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Sounds cool I would give both the scouts in the speeder and the assault squad a PF to hit that lovely rear armor!

In a game with many overpowered or units with obvious use, they often get overlooked.

The ability to quickly apply force in a wide range across the table is not to be under estimated. They have many possible uses;
Mopping up weakened squads
Jumping over screening units
Tying up high priority shooters (broadsides, lootas, long fangs, etc)
A reactive mobile screen for your scoring units vs enemy deep strikers
A durable contesting unit
And more....

Nothing works in a vacuum, but the ability to jump over terrain AND enemy units is a very powerful asset if used well. Too many times a unit is judged by its stat line or war gear, which in that sense they are not that great.

Think of them instead as a highly mobile rapid response unit which allows you the ability to almost ignore terrain and intervening enemy units; this is powerful.

I'll start by saying that this is a rant because I spent ages painting ten and now never use them...

They suck. Not being troops is just too big a deal to me, if I have enough troops, then I take more dreads or the always useful sternguard.

Charge ten vanilla assault marines into ten BAs who actually get to count as troops too and you will get ROFLstomped.

If you want CC, take 5 cc scouts in a storm. Lots cheaper than ten ass marines and vitally can cap and hold objectivesu, and let's be honest, they will cope only slightly less well in assaults if you heavy flame the assaultees!

They genuinely do suck for vanilla. They are so bad I'm stunned they got through play testing. The sternguard are absolutely excellent however, so if your sure you have enough troops then take them instead, there isn't a job they can't do, they slag tanks, burn men, hellfire MCs and they get as many CC attacks in assault anyway thanks to two base!

If your mates tell you otherwise its cos they wanna crush you. Put them back in the box!

So DAVETHEPAK makes a good arguement over the use of a unit that can move around the board like lightning and all the other utility, and Mattrym you focus on the Statline?

I agree Sternguard = Awesome, however can they move around the board quickly? In a Drop Pod once, in a RB or Rhino until it gets nailed or with a Libby GOI (good tactic) but they all cost points.

A squad of Assault Marines in reserve can bolster flaging sections of the line, jump over the line and hold up intercept nasties before they rip into your lines, plug gaps if a unit gets destroyed or leaves a hole in the line.

Killing everything in one round of combat is not Tactics, its statistics, you engineer a squad to kill enything in its path = Dull but there are counter tactics, a signum and PC or a unit with Plasma Guns and your Uber-killy unit goes down. Tactics is more important than statlines and I am pleased to see you know this from the use of a LSS and CC Scouts (I use this tactic with 2 storms and 2 scout cc units) but they cannot redeploy where as Jump Pack infantry can leap all over the show.

Mate, they suck. I'm not going to get into s debate with you because it simply boils down to me being right and you being wrong.

Yes they can move around quickly. Whoop Di do.

They are dedicated assault units who get owned by all other dedicated assault units! I see your points, I use mine occasionally for friendly games, they are fun to play, they are fluffy. But that was NOT the question.

They are not good. They suck. No pro players use them because you can always find something better to spend the points on. Find me a single really competitive list minus shrike that has ten in and ill be amazed.

You need to be able to cap with a fast unit? Take the LSS.

Dunno.

They're marines with an extra attack and a 18" assault range.

If you can reach something shooty, tie it up and stop it popping your shiny bits for a turn or two. Sometimes they even win.

I played 5 and tied up my opponents only other scoring unit, 8 DIre avengers. from claiming an objective from turn 3 to turn 6, which ended the game.

They don't have to kill stuff to be useful, and a 3+ save makes them reasonably durable.

The big problem is that essentially you are getting a fast bully unit with them. They are decent enough against basic non dedicated shooty units like guard vet squads, tau, perhaps even weakened ork mobs. Against units with good saves their output is lacking.
They don't perform well as a fast shooty unit and they really aren't any more survivable than a Tac marine. Its not the unit to take if you need CC punch. I don't really think its the unit to take if you need a fast non vehicle unit either.
I think one of the other issues is that they compete with Land Speeders, and 3 flavors of Bikes.

Lastly if Shrike made them scoring (troops or otherwise) then I think you would see a lot more use of them. As it is though there are other ways to get a quick deploying CC unit in the marine Codex, they may not be as cheap but more likely they are more durable or more deadly (or both)

Cheers,
~Volkan

See Vol gets it. I'm not saying they have no uses at all, I'm saying they suck because they cost points, and in the vanilla codex you can take many other things are far more efficient for said points.

The exact same can be said for vanguard vets, they are sweet looking models and heroic intervention is kinda cool, but really does anyone bother with them on a competitive setting ever?!

No. Not ever.

As I said, you go find me a good list that's genuinely competitive and ill be amazed.

As I said, I'm pissed about it cos I spent ages on them, tool them to a tourney and realised that almost everyone is WAAC.

When thats the case, they get left in box. And I've never met a serious player that says otherwise. Vanilla assault marines are broken. Make em troops and I might entertain the idea, but even then, its not a clear choice.

(EDIT: Sorry for the novel, I can't sleep and it was something to tire me,.. )Well for starters, they aren't well liked. They aren't a blunt sort of unit. You can't shove them in the list, throw them on the board and expect them to bludgeon their way through the enemy like I could, say, 6 TH/SS termies.

They are much more a scalpel than a hammer. Take a look at the board. Do you see things with 5+ or 6+ saves, and T4 or less on it? Do you see things depending on their cover to be viable? What about things that really should get the charge to be effective? You do? Hit those with it.

I cannot take my PF + 2 flamer ASM squad and reliably take on vast fleets of land raiders like I can with a full MM/HF land speeder squad which is cheaper...Though I have to worry about small uncommon things that no one would ever take like rifleman dreads, autocannon HW teams, and hydra batteries downing the whole squad in a single turn of shooting rather less.

I can however, jump them 12 inches over intervening terrain and models and slam them into that squad that just tied up my devastators that I am frantically trying to keep firing. At best, they'll knock the enemy back and escort them off the playing field, or they give me a anchor to keep the enemy in place so I can attempt to combat tactics the devastators out of the combat.

It enables you to look at that 30 man IG powerblob rushing straight for your tactical squad on an objective screaming about sparta or something, and go "Huh, I can beat that." ...and you might just be right, after those 30 GEQ get handed bolt pistol shots in quantity, a pair of flamer templates, supporting fire from the tacticals (or perhaps supporting CC even!) and a whole dicebag full of attacks that are going to hit before they get their power weapons that are fighting an uphill battle on strength and WS come into play.

You get to do fun things like take that rather pricey XV8 squad thats been hopping in and out of cover and making you want to pull your OPPONENTS hair out, and introduce them to a powerfist to the teeth. Or whatever tau eat with.

They let you tie something up for a round while your assault terminators, who so shamefully have been neglecting treadmill time at the fortress monastery, waddle their way up and assault without having to worry about being charged by the unit that may for a myriad of reasons want the walking walls of metal heading their way to NOT get their charge bonus, or want charge bonuses of their own before engaging, and also allow you a chance to sweep the enemy in the event that your assault terminators subsequently win you the combat.

"All they have going for them is mobility!"..Yea, Hi. That's a big deal. The ability to take offensive power and direct it to where it is needed at the drop of a hat is important. That's why you take multimeltas on land speeders rather than foot soldiers. That's why you take a land raider for your terminators to assault out of.

That they are not all carrying relic blades, have two wounds a pop, furious charge and FNP for their current cost, while it would be nice, doesn't change this fact one iota. Merely the list of things you should throw them at, and what you shouldn't.

I repeat: they are NOT a do-everything unit. Yes, BA ASM are better. Yes, other armies have CC options that are better. Yes, I too hate being pigeonholed into assault terminators if I want a unit to take on even troop level CC oriented MEQs reliably. Yes, you are likely better off spending points elsewhere if your opponents are walls of BA, SW, chaos marines and deathwing-esque walls of CC death...but i've been lucky enough in my past to play opponents who actually ran something other than MEQs once in a while. I suspect the same is true for a lot of folks here.

Their job is to shred GEQs, to tie up squads that should be shooting, to help you save your even less CC capable troop choices, and to deny charge bonuses to things that aren't likely to kill them outright, among other things.

I would think that this would be as basic as "Don't shoot lasguns at land raiders" but here is a short list of what happens when you take ASM and do the following, for anyone who is interested:

If you throw them at assault terminators, blood claws, blood angels, anything with the word "Khorne" in it, or any other situation where the rules are not going to side with your side of the argument and YOU KNOW IT? Your ASM Will die. You will be ridiculed. You will deserve this.

I think the problem is that when you can take LOADS of assault marines (BA Codex) they work very well. in vanilla you can take 3 squads, or 6 combat squads. not great...

That and you get to carry meltaguns. And the option of feel no pain. And you don't have to sit there and go "I'd really love these, but I have to make force chart room for my land speeders and bikes" seeing as they're troops...and then you can take objectives with them, rather than only being able to contest them like codex assault marines. The possibility of free furious charge. The advantages to BAs assault marines are larger than simply being able to take more of them. They can do all these things, and then they can go and perform the same jobs as the codex ASM.

I feel that if Vanilla Marine Assault squads could take Melta guns, they would be a decent choice.

2 melta guns that move 12" a turn(effectivly a 18" threat range, 24 for light vehicles) on a squad that can also do crowd control with an assault or finish off a vehicle.

Seconded. I'd love to see the melta-bomb confetti level of AT capability return to codex ASM. Or, alternatively, i'd love to see them get the option of a spare PW/PF or two per squad.

As it stands now though, they aren't great for taking on MEQ or heavier, particularly the CC oriented variety. This I believe has more to do with peoples dislike of them than anything. With a name like "Assault marines" you would be led to believe they're actually a contender in any sort of CC scenario....which they are not. They're simply the "best of the worst" of your CC options between your troop choices and your expensive or limited elite/HQ picks.

Play guard though, and it'll instill a healthy amount of respect for them. At least after you see a few bearing down the field to get side/rear shots with a trio of plasma pistols on your chimeras, and soon after you will probably wish you had spent the extra points for carapace armor on your vets.

With the amount of multishot S6 and better a mech IG list is likely to have on it, a trio of AV10 skimmers with the lovely vehicle squad damage rules is a bit less scary to me than a full assault marine squad.

Or hey, play tyranids. Nothing says "Oh hell." than two flamer templates landing on your gants/gaunts and then a whole bag of dice coming out for the CC attack rolls. Even if you are using horms, and have the same # of attacks per model, and even if you spent for those upgrades and get poisoned attacks, and go first with your likely mauled brood, my experience has been that trying to blunt force through 10 3+ saves isn't a winning strategy if it looks like anywhere close to equal numbers game, barring bad luck on the other guys part...which i'm not willing to depend on. You are going to lose this combat, and then you will take no retreat wounds. Even if you do win combat, you can't sweep him. He might even fall back to restart this whole process.

On the other hand, none of this matters if you play BA/SW, because, well, heh. Your troops are as good or better in CC and shooting. That's the other reason I think a lot of opinions get skewed on ASM. If all you know is your grey hunters, blood claws and BA assault squads, and proceed to judge ASM by that benchmark rather than "Hey, i have X unit here. What could I use it for?" then yes, you're going to be left unimpressed.

rdlb wrote:
They don't look that great on paper, but double the movement and the ability to just leap over terrain that blocks LOS is amazingly useful.

I would note this bit as being the bit that makes them viable.

Pretty much... they're a fast moving unit that are better in assault.. which is saying something because SM units in general are above average of standard units in assault anyways. They get 2 attacks/3 on charge. They get jump packs (good for mobility) or free transport, and they can handle a multitude of situations. The reason people don't tend to pick up the Veterans is because you need to spend a lot more points to get them to do their neat thing. While their neat thing is good, they're usually considered to be too many points. Maybe if they came with jumppacks.
They're not the best unit in SM codex by far.... I don't think they're useless.. but there are other forces that are cheaper or stronger.

SOFDC wrote:I would think that this would be as basic as "Don't shoot lasguns at land raiders" but here is a short list of what happens when you take ASM and do the following, for anyone who is interested:

If you throw them at assault terminators, blood claws, blood angels, anything with the word "Khorne" in it, or any other situation where the rules are not going to side with your side of the argument and YOU KNOW IT? Your ASM Will die. You will be ridiculed. You will deserve this.

This made my day!

I've found that assault squads become infinitely more effective when taken in groups of ten. It also counts more in how you use them. As it has been said, they can't hold their own against MEQ's and dedicated cc units, but against shootier and squishier things, they do just fine.

I've been wanting to try them for a while in a drop pod list. People tend to forget that locater beacons are not teleport homers and apply to anyone deep striking, not just terminators.

Place a drop pod or three in sensitive places and each one creates a nice 1' diameter circle for you assault marines to drop down with a flamer for light infantry or a melta for a tank hit. Or even just to get in between some bigger unit and your troops that are holding an objective, hopefully giving them another turn to get shot up.

(What I really want to try it with is vangaurd. With three pods down... You've got -- is my math right? -- a little over 9 square feet of area in which anyone is vulnerable to a heroic intervention. Removes the "hit-or-miss" aspect from the Van and might actually make them worth their points...)

Sounds like a good idea to me, I'll definitely have to try it out.

Ultimately it comes down to limited resources (points), and units which use up your limited resources (by costing points).

Assault Marines have appreciably no shooting, and often fail in their main role, which is dedicated close combat. WS4 and S4 are not impressive combat stats. Charging other WS4 and T4 models, AMs get less than 8 wounds. At best, they're a tarpit, slowly trading off body for body, at worst, they get crushed in CC.

So what about their other, utility roles?

Melta deepstrike? Two Land Speeders with multimeltas can do that, and you have the benefit of a longer melta range. They also cost fewer points.

Speedy objective contesting? Bikes and Land Speeders can both do it faster. Land Speeders in particular as they have the benefit of AMs; jumping over cover and intervening models.

How about as an area denial/countercharge unit? They can do this, and in this role they have some merit. But going back to limited resources, and AMs using up limited resources, in most situations the points spent on AMs to 'rescue' squads or vehicles could simply be invested in more squads or vehicles.

C:SM lacks any of the things C:BA possesses which makes AMs good.

If you're running a mech marine army with only rhinos--no razorbacks--then there's no space in any transport for your HQ guy to ride. So one option would be to take 5 assault marines without jump packs in the free rhino, and let the HQ ride with them. You can add the flamer and maybe gear to the assault sergeant and make a fairly assaulty little squad to support a HtH character. Cheaper than a command squad for the same base attacks.

As usual sourclams has an interesting point, this time about your investment of points.

Sanguinary Priests do make Blood Angel Assault Squads better in close combat, particularly if they charge. That said, the Sanguinary Priest is a W1 Independent Character. They also take up an Elite slot and 50pts. They're 75pts minimum if you want them to be in position to give the Assault Squad. That's about four Assault Marines in either book.

Additionally you have to give up Combat Tactics for the Red Thirst, which either does nothing, or makes the Sanguinary Priest less than optimally useful since you're paying for Furious Charge. Combat Tactics with a 3D6 Fall Back means you don't have to do the difficult gymnastics of pulling them out of combat when things go pear-shaped.

So clearly the Blood Angel Assault Squads have an advantage if the Sanguinary Priest is still alive, or you want to hammer something. If you want a roving trouble-shooter unit that can hop into combat and leave after they've dug a Tactical or Devastator Squad out of combat, then Codex Assault Squads have the advantage.

Consider the following:

Five Blood Angel Assault and a Sanguinary Priest assaulting a squad of Tactical Space Marines. They get 15 WS4 I5 attacks and 4 WS5 I5 attacks. On average they should get about 10 S5 hits, and thus 7 wounds and 2 casualties. If it was a Combat Squad of Tactical Marines, then that's 3 attacks back, or roughly zilch (0.13 casualties).

Nine Codex Assault Marines would have 27 attacks at S4 I4. That's about 13 hits, and 6 wounds, for 2 casualties. The Tactical Marines have 5 attacks at the same time, or again zilch (0.41). So both units can be expected to win that combat by roughly the same amount.

Against a squad of Imperial Guard Infantry (10), Blood Angels would get about 7 casualties. The Ultramarines would get about 8 casualties. Naturally the Ultramarines have a higher potential, but let's not get carried away with what can actually happen on the table-top when the dice aren't securely rolling the average.

Aside from being able to absorb more casualties, which is handy if you're facing an enemy that isn't shooting you with weapons that ignore Feel No Pain, the Codex Marines aren't Troops. Being Troops is a bit of a two-edged sword: They can capture objectives, but they're Assault Marines: they don't have the firepower to hold an objective; they need to leave it to make a difference. That's why Blood Angels have Tactical Squads, but let's not get nit-picky.

And we are back to BA Assault sqauds again. This is about Space Marine Assault Squads (e.g. C:SM) not the Blood Angels variant they have much better Assault troops and so this is not applicable to them. I agree with Nurglitch in the main. Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line,.

Meh on the meltagun thing. They'd still suck with melta, since bikes do the whole move fast, shoot melta thing faster and better for less points.

mwnciboo wrote: Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line,.

Whether they actually perform this role is quite debateable. It sounds good in a vacuum, but remember that these guys soak up points, and it's very possible that their value as a maneuver/speedbump unit is not commensurate with that cost.

"Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line"

Bikes can do this job as well, especially scout bikes. Infiltrating scouts can too. Pretty much the only use I can think of is to stack shrike + chaplain in an assault squad to have a hth hammer unit with fleet. Put plasma wounds on shrike and chaplain on the way in, and watch them go to town. Oh wait..blood angels do this better too...

scuddman wrote:"Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line"

Bikes can do this job as well, especially scout bikes. Infiltrating scouts can too. Pretty much the only use I can think of is to stack shrike + chaplain in an assault squad to have a hth hammer unit with fleet. Put plasma wounds on shrike and chaplain on the way in, and watch them go to town. Oh wait..blood angels do this better too...

How do blood Angels do Fleeting Assault marines better? The only thing with fleet in the BA Codex is the DC Dread.

And personally I like Bikes for the maneuver and pin role for a few reasons. The are T5, Can boost for a 3+ cover, and can score with a bike captain. Also the can be a decent shooting unit and while they aren't great in CC neither are Assault Marines.
Cheers,
~Volkan

SOFDC wrote:(EDIT: Sorry for the novel, I can't sleep and it was something to tire me,.. )Well for starters, they aren't well liked. They aren't a blunt sort of unit. You can't shove them in the list, throw them on the board and expect them to bludgeon their way through the enemy like I could, say, 6 TH/SS termies.

They are much more a scalpel than a hammer. Take a look at the board. Do you see things with 5+ or 6+ saves, and T4 or less on it? Do you see things depending on their cover to be viable? What about things that really should get the charge to be effective? You do? Hit those with it.

I cannot take my PF + 2 flamer ASM squad and reliably take on vast fleets of land raiders like I can with a full MM/HF land speeder squad which is cheaper...Though I have to worry about small uncommon things that no one would ever take like rifleman dreads, autocannon HW teams, and hydra batteries downing the whole squad in a single turn of shooting rather less.

I can however, jump them 12 inches over intervening terrain and models and slam them into that squad that just tied up my devastators that I am frantically trying to keep firing. At best, they'll knock the enemy back and escort them off the playing field, or they give me a anchor to keep the enemy in place so I can attempt to combat tactics the devastators out of the combat.

It enables you to look at that 30 man IG powerblob rushing straight for your tactical squad on an objective screaming about sparta or something, and go "Huh, I can beat that." ...and you might just be right, after those 30 GEQ get handed bolt pistol shots in quantity, a pair of flamer templates, supporting fire from the tacticals (or perhaps supporting CC even!) and a whole dicebag full of attacks that are going to hit before they get their power weapons that are fighting an uphill battle on strength and WS come into play.

You get to do fun things like take that rather pricey XV8 squad thats been hopping in and out of cover and making you want to pull your OPPONENTS hair out, and introduce them to a powerfist to the teeth. Or whatever tau eat with.

They let you tie something up for a round while your assault terminators, who so shamefully have been neglecting treadmill time at the fortress monastery, waddle their way up and assault without having to worry about being charged by the unit that may for a myriad of reasons want the walking walls of metal heading their way to NOT get their charge bonus, or want charge bonuses of their own before engaging, and also allow you a chance to sweep the enemy in the event that your assault terminators subsequently win you the combat.

"All they have going for them is mobility!"..Yea, Hi. That's a big deal. The ability to take offensive power and direct it to where it is needed at the drop of a hat is important. That's why you take multimeltas on land speeders rather than foot soldiers. That's why you take a land raider for your terminators to assault out of.

That they are not all carrying relic blades, have two wounds a pop, furious charge and FNP for their current cost, while it would be nice, doesn't change this fact one iota. Merely the list of things you should throw them at, and what you shouldn't.

I repeat: they are NOT a do-everything unit. Yes, BA ASM are better. Yes, other armies have CC options that are better. Yes, I too hate being pigeonholed into assault terminators if I want a unit to take on even troop level CC oriented MEQs reliably. Yes, you are likely better off spending points elsewhere if your opponents are walls of BA, SW, chaos marines and deathwing-esque walls of CC death...but i've been lucky enough in my past to play opponents who actually ran something other than MEQs once in a while. I suspect the same is true for a lot of folks here.

Their job is to shred GEQs, to tie up squads that should be shooting, to help you save your even less CC capable troop choices, and to deny charge bonuses to things that aren't likely to kill them outright, among other things.

I would think that this would be as basic as "Don't shoot lasguns at land raiders" but here is a short list of what happens when you take ASM and do the following, for anyone who is interested:

If you throw them at assault terminators, blood claws, blood angels, anything with the word "Khorne" in it, or any other situation where the rules are not going to side with your side of the argument and YOU KNOW IT? Your ASM Will die. You will be ridiculed. You will deserve this.

What a long quote!

Um..scout bikes do it better.

As for blood angels, I thought you could cast wings of Sanguinius on the Death company dread. Mea culpa. Librarian dreadnought only.

Mephiston also has fleet, but he's not an IC and has to cast wings to jump.

At least they look awesome. That's a plus, eh?

Um..scout bikes do it better.

In some ways, yes. Going to depend on your local conditions. Pick your poison.

You get a point of toughness, which is really going to help you in CC...Until you run into poison attacks and rending. Or thunderhammers/PFs. Non-2x strength power weapons will worry a bit less, but then again, the ASM have that extra save for dealing with all those poison wounds. Which do you run into more?

You get to shoot, and handle a sword as well as a guardsman too. Sometimes it's not an issue, othertimes it is. I personally like having the GEQs that i'm throwing my stuff at to have to roll better than I do. Always nice. You also lose access to flamers in the squad, which I have found wonderful for baking a squad in cover before assaulting. Or baking a squad utterly. Either way.

With speeding around flanking a vehicle with plasma pistols, between the scout bikers sgt plama pistol and the grenade launchers on the bikes, you can do roughly equivalent, but the ASM will have the edge in shooting strength and BS at the risk of blowing their own faces off.

Both get the same move + assault threat range...but the ASM don't care about the huge multiple combat in the way, or the clumped up friendly models that may be herpderping around in the way falling back, pinned, lashed, that immobilized land raider, a large ruin or wall terrain, a congaline of guardsmen between you and the shiny things you want to hit with a sword, nothing.

If you want a full squad with a powerfist, you wind up paying more with the scout biker squad and their ability to take mines and turbo-boost around. You're also still limited to about the same targets as with ASM. Pick whichever looks better to you and has the utility bits that wiggle your stick more.