Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The big question for Warhammer is if IA books, and their contents, have the same standing as Codexs or if they are in the same vain as Appoc and require consent from both parties to use them.


I personally think they are completely legal for several reasons.

1) FW is owned and operated by GW, therefore the argument that FW=/=GW doesn't work.

2) There is the argument that those that are able to afford IA books and models have an unfair advantage. the is rarely true as most FW stuff is overcosted in it's points and you could just as easily have bought more GW products for the same amount of $ and ended up with more points worth of toys.

3) The Hobby is expensive. anyone who denies someone who bought a $180 Cestus Assault Ram from using it is just being a Jerk.

4) The game is already based ENTIRELY on your opponents permission, Why should i ask permission again? i could refuse to play against your BAs because they are freakin OP with all that cheap FNP and you couldn't do anything about it, but i won't because we have already agreed to play 40K, not 40k except for freakin OP BAs who need a serious Nerf batting.

Grey Templar wrote:The big question for Warhammer is if IA books, and their contents, have the same standing as Codexs or if they are in the same vain as Appoc and require consent from both parties to use them.


I personally think they are completely legal for several reasons.

1) FW is owned and operated by GW, therefore the argument that FW=/=GW doesn't work.

Definitely holds no water. Agreed.

2) There is the argument that those that are able to afford IA books and models have an unfair advantage. the is rarely true as most FW stuff is overcosted in it's points and you could just as easily have bought more GW products for the same amount of $ and ended up with more points worth of toys.

I have a very easy solution for this. I let people read the book If they really still feel it's "overpowered", then clearly...they're not worth my gaming time because they're just wanting to play tourney games.

Plus, I usually give warning that I'll be using Imperial Armour Volume Whatever's Neato Superfun List and email them an army list prior to any scheduled game, with page numbers in my book for them to refer to if there's a dilemma.

3) The Hobby is expensive. anyone who denies someone who bought a $180 Cestus Assault Ram from using it is just being a Jerk.

Valid point, but crazy to make It just feels like guilting them into letting you do it.

4) The game is already based ENTIRELY on your opponents permission, Why should i ask permission again? i could refuse to play against your BAs because they are freakin OP with all that cheap FNP and you couldn't do anything about it, but i won't because we have already agreed to play 40K, not 40k except for freakin OP BAs who need a serious Nerf batting.

And this about sums it up.

Just because everything isn't OP doesn't mean that there isn't some things that are.

Lucius Pattern Drop Pods and the new Land Raider Achilles comes to mind as two of the most obvious examples.

In à friendly game then sure as long as you have a mix of the stuff and not only the OP stuff. The game is supposed to be fun for both parts. As for tourneys, FW units is simply to unbalanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just because everything isn't OP doesn't mean that there isn't some things that are.

Lucius Pattern Drop Pods and the new Land Raider Achilles comes to mind as two of the most obvious examples.

Indeed, imagine playin green tide vs an army with two Achilles and 3 Iron Clads in Lucius pods

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Just because everything isn't OP doesn't mean that there isn't some things that are.

Lucius Pattern Drop Pods and the new Land Raider Achilles comes to mind as two of the most obvious examples.

just because there is a couple of units that are OP doesn't mean that all IA books should be ignored.

BA and IG are overpowered, but we still let them come to tournaments and they don't get comped or penalized.

besides, i fail to see how being able to assault when you deep strike is OP. the Lucius Drop Pod is fairly priced.

i do think the Achilles is a bit under priced, but that is only one unit in 1 IA book(that isn't even out yet)


the Achilles's rules could still change between now and when IA10 is released.

The 12 people who voted "only if my opponent says yes" clearly have never read an IA book and seen exactly where they say that they don't require permission.

if the IA book has that little bit that says "codex .... may take ... as an.... choice" Then its now part of the codex, thus no permission required

It's ok as long as your opponent says so but most of the IA units are pretty OP and also unbalanced.

of course, that is the biggest reason they should be allowed. because they ARE allowed.


But i hate to play that particular card as it can make people feel "forced"

No one is forcing you to play 40k, but we can force you to allow rules.


I have never understood why in the world of gaming, weather it be games like DnD, Magic: the gathering, or Pokemon, Rule books get written(IE: approved and sent out weather you like it or not) and then later, someone gets their nose in a twist because something isn't pleasing them and then the "Powers that be" in that games competitive arena decide that certain items, cards, units arn't allowed in competitive play.

it goes against the spirit of the game. finding that particular combonation that works for you.


sure something might be OP, but it isn't permanant and before you know it something will come along and upset the balance of power and everything will start over again.

it is healthy for the different armies and factions to have power shifts.

Why, i'll wager that 6th edition will take a serious Nerf bat to all those Metal Bawxes that we have come to see as a staple of competitive armies, Anti-tank won't be needed and Hordes will reign supreme. IG will be underpowered and Eldar will be the new "Flavor of the Month" army that everyone wants to play.






Another thing to consider is that many Units in recent codexs that are "New" have been around for quite a while as FW units.

Piranna's, Vanquisher and Exicutioner LRBT's, Medusa's, Hydra Flak Tanks, Valk's and Vendetta's, Bombard's...

all of these were once "FW only" kits, but now are intergral units in Codex's.


Face it, in 10 years the Cestus Assault Ram and LR Achilles will be in Codex: SM and Ork Mega Dreds will be in Codex: Orks.

It's notable that the IA books have the 40K Expansion logo on them (like planetstrike or cities of death) and do not have the 40K Codex logo.

That said, they are specifically not requiring opponent's permission.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Piranna's, Vanquisher and Exicutioner LRBT's, Medusa's, Hydra Flak Tanks, Valk's and Vendetta's, Bombard's...
all of these were once "FW only" kits, but now are intergral units in Codex's.

And some of them got a major boost. The Hydra was 200 points. It's lost it's anti-aircraft mount, gained the options of a hull heavy flamer, pintle weapons, etc and been dropped to 75 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:It's ok as long as your opponent says so but most of the IA units are pretty OP and also unbalanced.

Really? Most? So you should have no problem giving us ten examples?

Scott-S6 wrote:

purplefood wrote:It's ok as long as your opponent says so but most of the IA units are pretty OP and also unbalanced.

Really? Most? So you should have no problem giving us ten examples?

You're a cruel and unusual person
And no because it is 12:00 and i'm tired

Grey Templar wrote:
DnD...arn't allowed in competitive play.

Something doesn't add up here.

Grey Templar wrote:Why, i'll wager that 6th edition will take a serious Nerf bat to all those Metal Bawxes that we have come to see as a staple of competitive armies, Anti-tank won't be needed and Hordes will reign supreme. IG will be underpowered and Eldar will be the new "Flavor of the Month" army that everyone wants to play.

Wait, what?

As long as the other person gives me a chance to take a look at the rules for his IA stuff, I don't care.

purplefood wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

purplefood wrote:It's ok as long as your opponent says so but most of the IA units are pretty OP and also unbalanced.

Really? Most? So you should have no problem giving us ten examples?

You're a cruel and unusual person
And no because it is 12:00 and i'm tired

The vast majority of FW stuff is either Meh or OverPriced. Was that what you meant by OP?

ETA, tell you what - if you can PM me a list of ten demonstrably overpowered units I'll send you a set of my upgraded templates.

Only if your opponent says it's okay. I personally wouldn't allow them to use them, but that's just me. If I owned one of those books, I'd probably want to use chaos dreadclaws or something cool.

RustyKnight wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why, i'll wager that 6th edition will take a serious Nerf bat to all those Metal Bawxes that we have come to see as a staple of competitive armies, Anti-tank won't be needed and Hordes will reign supreme. IG will be underpowered and Eldar will be the new "Flavor of the Month" army that everyone wants to play.

Wait, what?

what i meant by this was that the Meta of the game changes and makes somethings Waaaaaaaayyyyyy better, even OP, from what they once were and people will complain.

Necron players complained that 5th totally destroyed their ability to kill Tanks, but nothing was done about it.

instead they manned up and are doing the best they can. if you face IA users then you should do the same.



if you think IA books are OP then i have news for you. They are 100% legal for all kinds of play(dispite what the accepted Tournament rules are) and if you don't like that then it's too bad. Suck it up and take it as a Challange to counter these "OP" units.

you might be surprised to find what's OP and whats not and you can take comfort in the fact that most people won't run the OP stuff if you really detest it, but you shouldn't whine if they do. IA players tend to play to the Fluff, if that happens to be very good then it's a double blessing for them. I would HATE to see a BA player run 3 of his Fast WINdicators and might accuse him of Power Gaming, but it's legal and i would simply man up and figure out how to counter them.

IMO playing a game of Warhammer with IA is the equivalent of playing a video game with a mod: I'd ask for the opponent's permission.

Henners91 wrote:IMO playing a game of Warhammer with IA is the equivalent of playing a video game with a mod: I'd ask for the opponent's permission.

I have an issue with that.

a better anology would be Playing a Video game with an official expansion pack that gives you new abilities.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The 12 people who voted "only if my opponent says yes" clearly have never read an IA book and seen exactly where they say that they don't require permission.

Where dose it say that?

Should we let Super Heavy play if they use there whole FoC chart for it.

Noir wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The 12 people who voted "only if my opponent says yes" clearly have never read an IA book and seen exactly where they say that they don't require permission.

Where dose it say that?

Should we let Super Heavy play if they use there whole FoC chart for it.

it says it in the first page of each IA book and the IA books do say that Super Heavies are Appoc only.

Self-regulated

and to answer your last question, If Super Heavies were added to the FoC then they would be allowed. as they don't fit into the FoC they are only allowed when the FoC is ditched.

Grey Templar wrote:

Noir wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The 12 people who voted "only if my opponent says yes" clearly have never read an IA book and seen exactly where they say that they don't require permission.

Where dose it say that?

Should we let Super Heavy play if they use there whole FoC chart for it.

it says it in the first page of each IA book and the IA books do say that Super Heavies are Appoc only.

Self-regulated

and to answer your last question, If Super Heavies were added to the FoC then they would be allowed. as they don't fit into the FoC they are only allowed when the FoC is ditched.

I have my IA8 out still don't see were its say you they don't require permission, just how I to use it in 40K not a stand alone product and you need 40K and some codex to use it and that on the Introduction page.

No chance in hell id let someone use IA stuff in a normal games or tourney setting maybe in an uber casual setting if both players had access to FW stuff then sure.

But yeah does not the first IA book say something along the lines that you need your opponent permission?

I think trying to put a baneblade on the table in a normal games is a bit silly so I would veto it.

Jubear wrote:No chance in hell id let someone use IA stuff in a normal games or tourney setting maybe in an uber casual setting if both players had access to FW stuff then sure.

But yeah does not the first IA book say something along the lines that you need your opponent permission?

I think trying to put a baneblade on the table in a normal games is a bit silly so I would veto it.

Super Heavies are still restricted to Apocalypse, so have no fear of having a Baneblade thrown at you in a 1500pt game.

Normal Forgeworld units are generally far more expensive than they should be, so it's usually detrimental to use one. I assume people just have a fear of Forgeworld models due to the whole super heavy thing. I'd never say no to someone using one against me, as long as I got to read the units rules before having it fielded against me. Variety is always nice, even if I'm on the receiving end.

Jubear wrote:No chance in hell id let someone use IA stuff in a normal games or tourney setting maybe in an uber casual setting if both players had access to FW stuff then sure.

But yeah does not the first IA book say something along the lines that you need your opponent permission?

I think trying to put a baneblade on the table in a normal games is a bit silly so I would veto it.

No one who uses IA would put a Baneblade down in a normal game.

the IA books have never said you need permission to use them, quite the opposite in fact.

the exception is Super heavies. those are only allowed in games of Appoc and this is laid out in no uncertain terms.

Personally I see them as legit as anything in a codex. These things all exist within the Warhammer 40,000 universe and should be available to players that shelled out cash for them just like any other model/ruleset designed for Warhammer 40,000.

That said, I also feel that everything is opponents permission, FW or not, Codex or not.

Jubear wrote:No chance in hell id let someone use IA stuff in a normal games or tourney setting maybe in an uber casual setting if both players had access to FW stuff then sure.

Why? I'm sorry, but the way you phrased the quote above just makes it sound like you're someone who's afraid of letting anyone have any sort of advantage over you, made all the more hilarious by the fact that most FW units don't give an advantage, they put you at a disadvantage. I'm not saying there are no overpowered Forge World units, there are, but there are more overpowered regular 40K units and most FW units are point sinks. Are you really that afraid of losing that you'd actually deny someone the use of their models because of a perceived imbalance?


And Super-Heavies can only be taken in a regular army is the game is 2000 points or above (because you need a second detachment, and that requires 2000 points). So there's no chance of a super heavy showing up in a 1550 or 1750 or even an 1850 point game because the points limit is too low.

Really the only thing I think would cross into the OP zone would be the fliers. Tried taking on one of those buggers and the not-so-harmless AV11 thing utterly chewed my 1000 point army to shreds. Although it was a dick move on my opponent's part, since he knew I was playing Khorne and (at the time I was new) have no experience on IA stuff at all. He did give me fair warning, and it was a new aircraft (forgot which one) which he was all gitty about. Fair Warning should at least be given depending on the unit in question. Something normal (i.e doesnt use weird rules that you wouldnt encounter in a game with only codex units) probably doesnt need much of a warning, while something like the achilles, a SM Monolith with 4 blast template shots, the opponent should at least be warned about.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The 12 people who voted "only if my opponent says yes" clearly have never read an IA book and seen exactly where they say that they don't require permission.

So Forge World publishes a book with a two page introduction in one of their books stating that the Imperial Armor books are best treated as expansions, and somehow you don't think that means that they require permission?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Jubear wrote:No chance in hell id let someone use IA stuff in a normal games or tourney setting maybe in an uber casual setting if both players had access to FW stuff then sure.

Why? I'm sorry, but the way you phrased the quote above just makes it sound like you're someone who's afraid of letting anyone have any sort of advantage over you, made all the more hilarious by the fact that most FW units don't give an advantage, they put you at a disadvantage. I'm not saying there are no overpowered Forge World units, there are, but there are more overpowered regular 40K units and most FW units are point sinks. Are you really that afraid of losing that you'd actually deny someone the use of their models because of a perceived imbalance?

Im a fairly good player so I dont mind being at a disadvantage it was mainly because of the whole super heavy thing in normal games. That being said it is an advantage for IG and SM players because they have all these books that give them about 4 million new options why xeno races get a token showing at best.

There is also the issue that FW rules are not part of a normal armies codex so they require permission. Every tournament ruleset that I have seen says something along the lines of "All armies most be chosen from there relative codex" Not all armies may take anything from anything that has ever been written about that army and lets be honest IA books are really just fan fiction with rad pictures.

But feel free to think its because I am worried about loosing a game I mean 40k is serious business.


And Super-Heavies can only be taken in a regular army is the game is 2000 points or above (because you need a second detachment, and that requires 2000 points). So there's no chance of a super heavy showing up in a 1550 or 1750 or even an 1850 point game because the points limit is too low.

Yeah I forgot that. And the quote function hates me =(

@ op:

I voted "Only if your opponent says ok", but that's only because the entire game is that way. My opinion is that I personally don't care if an opponent wants to use IA stuff (I'll see it on his list before the game anyways, so no surprises). I don't think there is a universal answer to this question.

Unless its agreed upon, Imperial Armour books are not permitted in regular 40k play. think about it this way: how many things in normal play stand a chance of cracking a Baneblade?

You want to use them? ask you opponent, because no one really loves losing because you had more money than they did.