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Superheavies don't even come up outside of apocalypse so that's pretty much a non-issue.

Seriously, anyone who whines about Imperial Armour books being overpowered are just crybabies.
40k is rife with imbalance. haven't you seen how much people cry about X new codex? Every Army is OP at one point or another so IA books don't change the game.

You're just mad because you're piss-poor and can't afford to buy more models on your salary / allowance from your mum.

FW & GW = Same bloody game. Get over it. Just because it doesn't say "codex X" doesn't mean it's illegal or should be excluded. Yes you should always let your opponent see your rules, that goes for every army list & all of 40k. I never stop people from playing their kits, and it's a shame that people have to be so bloody diplomatic about playing IA models..

Mukkin'About wrote:FW & GW = Same bloody game. Get over it. Just because it doesn't say "codex X" doesn't mean it's illegal or should be excluded. Yes you should always let your opponent see your rules, that goes for every army list & all of 40k. I never stop people from playing their kits, and it's a shame that people have to be so bloody diplomatic about playing IA models..

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Basically it comes down to if your opponent is playing for fun or to win.

Are they a fluff or a tourney type. If the former any reasonable vehicle would be allowed as long as you weren't being a male chicken about it.
If the latter then no. (although if they loose it's probably going to be blamed on your 'OP' FW mini/tank/etc).

Reality is somewhere in the middle. I've played against FW stuff before, then some of it became codex which was nice. It's generally overcosted as mentioned previously.

Phototoxin wrote:... playing for fun or to win.

Ah! The age-old implication that these two things are mutually exclusive.

Never gets old.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:... playing for fun or to win.

Ah! The age-old implication that these two things are mutually exclusive.

Never gets old.

Depends on the person. It's quite possible to play for fun and still win, since winning is fun. But you want it to be fun for your opponent too, especially if they are a friend.

The way I see it, the moment you don't take the other person's feelings into consideration in a game that's supposed to be just for fun then you've crossed a line and are no longer playing for fun. Save that mindset for the tournaments were it belongs.

Also back to the FW thing. Are you sure the Achilles rules are experimental? The Hornet has a big "EXPERIMENTAL" stamped on the PDF but the Achilles has no such thing. I'm worried that they're actually going to release it as it is. I played an opponent who used one, and I had no weapons that could hope to threaten it. My Eldar Bright Lances and Missile Launchers just bounced off the surface, and my IG ally with his Lascannons was too busy using them on the opponent's ally to bring them to bear on the Achilles.

The end result was the thing dominated the centre of the field. Melting anything that got close and decimating a unit of 20 Guard and my Dire Avengers with a single burst of it's Thunderfire cannon (not at the same time though).

Mostly though it's probably my fault for not taking Fire Prisms, but how did I know my opponent was going to field that monster in his 1000p list? (2000p a side).

zonino wrote:
Also back to the FW thing. Are you sure the Achilles rules are experimental? The Hornet has a big "EXPERIMENTAL" stamped on the PDF but the Achilles has no such thing. I'm worried that they're actually going to release it as it is. I played an opponent who used one, and I had no weapons that could hope to threaten it. My Eldar Bright Lances and Missile Launchers just bounced off the surface, and my IG ally with his Lascannons was too busy using them on the opponent's ally to bring them to bear on the Achilles.

Well, the difference is likely due to the fact that IA10 (Achilles) is most probably already off to the press, whereas IA11 (Eldar Hornet) is still a bit further out.

i would still be surprised if the Achilles's rules didn't get changed for the print version with all the flak it's been getting.

a points increase at least.

Ghiest1 wrote:Hello,
My two cents is this, first lets quit crying about the fact that the books do not "state" you have to get permission to use them. Neither do codexs, just a thought there.

What read the BRB it's right there.

And lets stop the everyone think there OP thats way they don't want to play vs then. This poll proves that not the problem, 5 voted for that so far. But I guess foucsing on that help with your view.

I see it as the DnD player that got a new book and demand to play it becouse "it's put out by the same poeple and say I can use it with the PH". It a expansion that requires permission, as the main book(s) tell you the books you can use (Just like the BRB tells you the books you can use. All else are addons and not part of the core rule.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Unless its agreed upon, Imperial Armour books are not permitted in regular 40k play. think about it this way: how many things in normal play stand a chance of cracking a Baneblade?

You want to use them? ask you opponent, because no one really loves losing because you had more money than they did.

Oh yeah, I forgot the melta-spam that has become the staple of modern day 40k armies (especially IG/SM) can't scratch superheavy vehicles, right?

right. the Imperial Armour expansions are not codexes, so they are not valid to use outside of an Apocalypse game. Like I said, "I paid $100 for my tank so I want to use it" is not a valid reason to think that IA expansions are obligatory. It is by the permission of the opponent. If I say I want to play 3,000 points and someone else doesn't, do I get to claim a moral victory because I have a larger army? Or do I get to whine because I have 3,000 points to play with and someone else doesn't?

Uh, no. You don't need opponents permission. You simply throw down your list, and they have a right to refuse to play you on the basis that they don't like some aspect of your list. You have just as much right to say no to someone using forgeworld in a casual game as I do to say no to you for using a Dark Angels codex.

I like knowing what 95% of things do in the games I play ... I don't want to have to buy these expensive books just so I can learn about what my opponents may bring.

codexes now are bad enough 23-35$

Then ask your opponent if you can look at the rules for his stuff before you play?

Just because something is not tournament legal doesn't mean its not 40k legal. The two are basically exclusive of one-another. I have played in tournaments where use of certain unit-types (such as jetbikes or transports, in one case Heavy Support choices entirely) was not allowed, does that mean that you need to ask me permission to use any of those units against me the next time I play? No.

Noir wrote:

What read the BRB it's right there.

Where exactly in the BRB *rules* does it state what is permissable for "normal" games, and furthermore which version of a codex to use?

Vaktathi wrote:

Noir wrote:

What read the BRB it's right there.

Where exactly in the BRB *rules* does it state what is permissable for "normal" games, and furthermore which version of a codex to use?

The BRB suggests that the "best way" to build an army is using an army list from a codex book. P86

I don't understand the point of this thread.

In tournaments, IA is not allowed far more often than not.

As far as regular games, there is no distinction between regular armies or IA units, since the other guy can tell you to piss off regardless.

I think the point of the thread is to try and establish whether or not there is a consensus regarding using IA units or not.

Personally I prefer to leave the IA stuff to the apoc games since (even if the codexes arent perfectly balanced) I find most IA stuff overcosted (most of the time) and massively broken other times.

For instance:

MotF (MB) = 105

Troops:
5xTacticals = 90
LasPlas = 75

5xTacticals = 90
LasPlas = 75

5xTacticals = 90
LasPlas = 75

Heavy:
3xLR Achilles = 900

1500pts, lots of melta and anti horde. 3 scoring units with big enough footprint to avoid the possibility of contested objects. GG and HF

There are some anti-armour units that are less effected by the Achilles rules. Tankbusta bombs will still be 6+2D6. Rending weapons will still be getting their extra D3. Termies with thunderhammers or chainfists and iron clads with hammers will still be kicking ass.

I don't agree with the -1 on the damage table though - that was a step too far. We'll have to see what actually makes print and whether it gets errata'd later.

Yes monstorus creatures and S10 weapons can still dent the Achilles. Of course if the opponent is smart he'll be aware of this and will focus fire on those units. The 2 meltas and the Thunderfire cannon will also hurt these things.

Plus even if you pen it the -1 to the damage chart means you need a 6 to destroy it outright. Even if you stun it it can still fire one weapon. And so on.

All in all it's very hard to kill but for 300 points it should be.

I was thinking more like Vulkan, MoTF and some ironclads in lucious drop pods ... sounds fun right?

There are a few units that might have a slight chance of taking a LRA down thats true, but usually those units are not found in an take all commers list.

Ironclads with the hammer might be ok but I dont see them getting a charge of often at all since they would be within melta range (90% of the time) of the LRA if they can charge.

I don't see why FW and GW can't just clear these rules distinction up, simply by issuing an official FAQ(or ERRATA) about 'uniting' their rules, the words 'expansion' and 'codex' are getting all this flak.
Anyway, to simplify things up in our LFGS we just agree on the points and give warning to our foe, adjust the list appropriately. Once we tried to use a baneblade against two LR Achilles (proxied via two godhammer pattern LR) in 2.5K game, it's for fun anyway (sorry no batreps, but the bane got a beating,it survived though, the opponent had a lone LRA left with one TL melta and TF and the other LRA got wrecked by the bane's demo cannon).

Terminus wrote:I don't understand the point of this thread.

In tournaments, IA is not allowed far more often than not.

As far as regular games, there is no distinction between regular armies or IA units, since the other guy can tell you to piss off regardless.

+1

In casual games, the point is to have fun with your army. Introducing IA is a bunch of fun for some people, but for others it isn't.

In tourney play, it is up to the organizer to choose what is or isn't allowed. You get to vote with your feet and your wallet whether you agree or not.

In casual play, the point is to have a good time, and hopefully learn something. If you or your opponent doesn't feel comfortable with IA, then don't use it, as it detracts from instead of enhances the game.

If you bought some overpriced piece of resin (instead of the overpriced piece of plastic) without thinking about how often you are going to use it (due to other peoples opinions or events) then it is your fault for wasting your money. Don't inflict it on people who don't want to deal with it. Being a jerk and forcing your opinion on people is a good way to be "That Guy" and end up not getting many or any games in.

If your friend wants to use some forge world unit(s), the reasonable thing to do would ask to read the entries for what he has in mind (if time permits, right before the game starts is NOT a good time), then decide if that kind of unit is acceptable.

IMHO forge world books are just fine for narrative battles. They are great for fighting specific scenarios that are probably more common in fluff than a pitched battle. I regard them as fun optional rules similar to Cityfight and other scenario based books.

That's a good way to look at them. If you treat them like any other expansion - Cities of Death, Planetstrike, etc. - then that's probably the best way to go about using them.

Then it stops being a case of "Will you allow me to bring X unit" and more a "Would you like to play a game of X using Y units". And then people can stop being afraid of the person who brought the Leman Russ Annihilator because it looks cool, not because it's actually any good...

Hi All

I don't own any IA, I've never read the books. I've only ever oggled a few of the models on the forge world website. So I can't really comment on their performance. If I owned IA I would seek permission before using it.

If some one wanted to use it against me i'd ask to know what it was, what it did and if they have the relevant IA book to hand. I don't play as many games as i'd like, to be honest there is a lot of stuff out there i'm not familiar which is codex so something new is ok by me as long as it's fully explained. However if you insisted I had to let you play it, i'd be tempted to just walk away.

If you didn't have the IA book with you though you could off. I played a game against an ork player who used a rule claiming it was IA, I checked with my friend who plays or at least knows a fair bit about IA (talking about you formosa) and he said the rule was bull

any way just my 2 cents

anyone reccommend which IA I should get if I was interested? (Imperial Guard)

SpankHammer III wrote:If you didn't have the IA book with you though you could off. I played a game against an ork player who used a rule claiming it was IA, I checked with my friend who plays or at least knows a fair bit about IA (talking about you formosa) and he said the rule was bull

Never play anyone who doesn't have the rules for their models (IA or Codex)!!

This is a story I hear reasonably often (and have seen once or twice - apparently Land Speeder Tempests are flyers...) - players using another's unfamiliarity with the IA rules to cheat. These are the same guys that like to play newbies because they can get away with cheating (you touched difficult terrain - your termies mishap!).

As pointed out my notabot, FW stuff is expensive and you yourself should be able to justify the purchase, that includes knowing roughly how often you get to use it. FW is mostly for modellers and people who care about the appearance of their army, not gameplay. I remember one of my FLG friends who owned a Bloodthirster from FW. he kept it in the FLG display case and never played a game with it, solely because the thing was fragile as heck and he broke it several times before to the point now that he refuses to touch it anymore.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:As pointed out my notabot, FW stuff is expensive and you yourself should be able to justify the purchase, that includes knowing roughly how often you get to use it. FW is mostly for modellers and people who care about the appearance of their army, not gameplay. I remember one of my FLG friends who owned a Bloodthirster from FW. he kept it in the FLG display case and never played a game with it, solely because the thing was fragile as heck and he broke it several times before to the point now that he refuses to touch it anymore.

Which is one of the reasons I steer clear of FW models. I've dealt with various grades of resin in my days, both in work and in hobbies, and FW has one of the poorest resins I've used. Its good at holding detail, but it is fragile as hell, and they have issues with QA (I've seen some with too much filler for instance, makes it even more brittle, and there has been some extreme warping). They do do a good job answering the problems once discovered, but good QA is making sure the customer doesn't have to deal with problems at all.

The sculpts themselves look amazing though, and their original concepts and units are cool as hell. Makes me wish the new storm raven had been done by them, instead of the preschooler they got to do it: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327513.page

you yourself should be able to justify the purchase, that includes knowing roughly how often you get to use it.

QFT

I bought a shadow sword, not the FW one but still, how many games of apoc have I played? none why did I buy it? because I had saved £60 in change and wanted to build a tank that was a big as my head