Why do we have Librarians in current 40k (contains spoilers from Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns)

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**Bloodwin**

I finished listening to Prospero Burns this weekend and I am confused about the use of official psychics post Heresy.

In A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns we read that at the Council of Nikea the Emperor outlaws the use of Psykers. How then do we come to the situation in 'current era' 40k where every chapter has Psykers some of whom would give even Ahriman a run for his money especially Njal Stormcaller of the Space Wolves?

I expect I've missed something somewhere but the two books pivot on this element and psykers are one of my favourite elements in 40k.

**Simo429**

Have you listened to the Garro audio book?

That gives some hints

Spoiler:

**BluntmanDC**

because some people like to mess with pretty good 40k canon,

the council of nikea was a very good peice of back story.

what is the time difference between prospero burns and garro, seeing as i really want to know LITERALLY how the crusade could have continued without the use of psykers, in the context of the 40k (or in this case 30k universe), this plot devise falls foul of being completely impractical over a period of single month let alone years.

**Simo429**

Its after Nikea,

Spoiler:

**Nurglitch**

The Council of Nikea only banned the Astartes from using psychic powers. The Navigators, Astropaths, and assorted hangers-on were specifically not covered by the prohibition.

Of course you have certain people believing themselves to be exempt by dint of their ignorance about the nature of their psychic powers (Othar Wyrdmake, for example), and the usual well-meaning idiots that treat the edicts of the Emperor as suggestions (aka The Thousand Sons).

Likewise another important modern Space Marine department is the Chaplaincy. The Legion to institute the Chaplaincy was another one of the original Traitor Legions, just as the Thousand Sons instituted the Librarium department. It's an interesting and as yet unknown story about why the modern Space Marine Chapter retains departments instituted by ancient Traitor Legions.

**Alpharius**

One of my favorite subjects!

Basically, Alan Merrett screwed up the fluff.

The old version had The Council of Nikaea ban SORCERY and NOT PSYKERS.

Index Astartes wrote:

"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.

The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.

But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.

The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."

The new version screws this up and to date offers no plausible explanation for how psykers (outside of Astropaths and Navigators) were reintroduced to the various military branches...

**Bloodwin**

Alpharius wrote:
The old version had The Council of Nikaea ban SORCERY and NOT PSYKERS.

Thanks, that explains some of my confusion. I'm still unsure how they are defining sorcery as opposed to psychic abilities. The only difference I can see is that the Thousand Sons had those odd 'familiars' the spirits that accompanied and lent power to their magic. I see them as creatures from the warp and possibly the big issue. But even then all psychic powers deal with looking into the Warp which is the point of most danger.

To return to my previous example the current Space Wolves list has the Jaws of the Wolf psychic power, how does this differ to any of the abilities the Thousand Sons used? I think that the general idea is similar to some occult thoughts along the lines of 'do not stare to long into the abyss'. Which is good sense, part of the 'otherness' of psykers is that they spend too long interacting with the warp to master their powers and this could lead to cutting themselves off from mundane affairs which in turn could adversely effect their decision making. The other issue is that if they open their mind or location to the warp they could let things through into the mundane world. What smacks of hypocrisy to me though is that the Emperor planned for Magnus to sit upon the Golden Throne and stare into the warp for eternity even after the council.

I think a more interesting conflict would have been an 'arms race' of psychics where the Thousand Sons significantly out class their brother chapters. Perhaps that was what Mortarion feared. In the same way that the Space Wolves were feared for their unflinching resolve to carry out any task to its fatal conclusion. I was surprised they allowed Casper (Kasper? I've only heard the name not read it) to live. As a possible conduit to Horus I'd have killed him and burnt the body, especially as in the ice room he communicated with the sleeping Dreadnoughts.

**Nurglitch**

Something to keep in mind is that the Chaos Gods are the Warp, and the Warp is the Chaos Gods. Hence drawing on the power of the warp for psychic cantrips is no different in kind than bargaining directly with daemons for psychic power. Hence a ban on sorcery would entail a ban on psychic power.

People should keep in mind the background material on Chaos Sorcerers; all a Librarian has to do is draw a little too much power from the Warp and he will endure the cold whispers of Chaos for the rest of his life. Of course, there's other ways of drawing the attention of the Dark Powers, and that's iterating the patterns associated with them.

Which is something that Mortarian did: smearing factors of 7 all over his Legion.

**Alpharius**

I think that they've said there is a distinction between Psykers and Sorcerers in the 40K Galaxy, and that the Chaos Gods are in the Warp, but that they are not the Warp.

I think!

**BluntmanDC**

Nurglitch wrote:Something to keep in mind is that the Chaos Gods are the Warp, and the Warp is the Chaos Gods. Hence drawing on the power of the warp for psychic cantrips is no different in kind than bargaining directly with daemons for psychic power. Hence a ban on sorcery would entail a ban on psychic power.

People should keep in mind the background material on Chaos Sorcerers; all a Librarian has to do is draw a little too much power from the Warp and he will endure the cold whispers of Chaos for the rest of his life. Of course, there's other ways of drawing the attention of the Dark Powers, and that's iterating the patterns associated with them.

Which is something that Mortarian did: smearing factors of 7 all over his Legion.

i'm with alpharius on this, source please

**1hadhq**

Nurglitch likes his idea of 'the warp = chaos gods'.....

but I doubt it is this way.

The immaterium/ Empyrean existed always, and the creatures living there became what is the chaos "gods" after the old ones messed up with this realm
when they used more and more of its energy in the war against the C'tan/Necrontyr.

The immaterium/Empyrean was a calm place once...
and if we look into codex chaos demons, if ever any chaos"god" wins against all of his kin ( beeing the last one ), chaos is screwed and will cease to exist.

I agree, the background of librarians has been treated badly in its new version of nikaea, so I am going with "Firedrake/BL" ( as the 2 librarians call Nikaea a "myth" in this
book ) and deem the info at the practical appliance of the edict and its "end" to lack too much substance to do more than guess.

**Nurglitch**

Alpharius:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.6 wrote:Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.

The distinction between Sorcerers and Psyckers is, as I've pointed out, a distinction in degree rather than kind.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines, p.31 wrote:The line between psychic power and raw sorcery is blurred, and every time a Librarian uses his power he is risking corruption. He may overreach his abilities, unwittingly drawing on more power than he can control, and by these means attract the attention of the Chaos Gods. From that moment, he must endure cold whispers in his dreams, visions of immortality and promises of untold power.

**BluntmanDC**

codex daemon, the destroyer of canon. the worst think GW has written.

i remember a time when certain gods didn't like the others, but they needed to make useable armies so they gakked over fluff

and the warp is also gork and mork, the enslavers, warp sharks, other race specific gods and all the other non-chaos entities, the warp is not just chaos

**Alpharius**

Well said BluntmanDC.

Sad, true and well said...

**Nurglitch**

I disagree. I don't think it's 'sad' at all. The new Codex: Chaos Daemons is a big improvement.

As for "well said"...?

**BluntmanDC**

you are in the 0.1 %

**Nurglitch**

BluntmanDC:

That's alright, I don't like your opinion either.

**Kilkrazy**

To sell models and give SMs some more special rules and advantages.

**FM Ninja 048**

BluntmanDC wrote:codex daemon, the destroyer of canon. the worst think GW has written.

i remember a time when certain gods didn't like the others, but they needed to make useable armies so they gakked over fluff

and the warp is also gork and mork, the enslavers, warp sharks, other race specific gods and all the other non-chaos entities, the warp is not just chaos

Warp sharks? where did they come from

**purplefood**

FM Ninja 048 wrote:
BluntmanDC wrote:codex daemon, the destroyer of canon. the worst think GW has written.

i remember a time when certain gods didn't like the others, but they needed to make useable armies so they gakked over fluff

and the warp is also gork and mork, the enslavers, warp sharks, other race specific gods and all the other non-chaos entities, the warp is not just chaos

Warp sharks? where did they come from

The warp...

**FM Ninja 048**

WOW, i never would of guessed that

I meant what codex/book etc are they mentioned in, never heard of them before

**purplefood**

FM Ninja 048 wrote:WOW, i never would of guessed that

I meant what codex/book etc are they mentioned in, never heard of them before

Dunno, but i think they're mentioned in the general warp nastiness in the BRB.

**reds8n**

BluntmanDC wrote:codex daemon, the destroyer of canon. the worst think GW has written.

i remember a time when certain gods didn't like the others, but they needed to make useable armies so they gakked over fluff

No, not really. All they really did was return, or more accurately reemphasise the older ideas first presented in the RoC books, which is quite explicit with regards to daemonic armies featuring allies from competing factions being in the same force or even fighting against units they would normally be aligned with.

Onwership -- for want of a better term -- of lesser -- in the generic or power related sense of the word rather than the unit specific term -- daemons and minions, and the battering, trading, enslavement and wagering thereof has been a long standing and Key facet to the multifaced beast that is chaos. It's another nod towards the pantheistic nature of the chaos gods -- much like in our mythology gods traded,raised up and brought down their prized assets and followers.

That's a much more rich and textured background rather than having be simply different coloured versions of the same thing, all neatly organised into very specific roles.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

AFAIK the difference between Psychic Power and Sorcery is ...
A Pskyer draws power directly from the warp to use their abilities.
A Sorcerer gets a warp entity to do the job for them.

The sorcerer is probably more powerful since the warp entities are more experienced than most psykers.
But then the Warp Entities aren't doing this for free, and the price will usually end up costing the Sorcerer his life and soul.
You have to be a particularly adept sorcerer to keep ahead of the cost for a long time such as the likes of Ahriman et al.

So you can be a Sorcerer without being a Psyker (though you'll have a tough time conversing with the warp entities).

Which is why I think it is weird that Chaos Sorcerers are sorcerers that use psychic abilities but they have no rules for sorcererous abilities.
Its not like the Thousand Sons got kicked out of the Imperium for using Sorcery and then decided to give it up afterall.
But that is a codex problem, and not Background

**Amaya**

Cause having a universe with BFGs isn't enough. You have to crazy telepaths that can mindrape everything within 2 sectors also.

**Nurglitch**

Thanatos_elNyx:

Well that's the thing isn't it, the difference between knowingly colluding with dark forces and being able to set people on fire just by thinking about it is "blurred" as the Codex says, a euphemism for psychic powers being small change and sorcery being outright finance.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

Yes, Nurglitch.

The line can be blurred when a Psyker is using their abilities thinking they are doing it all by themselves, but are in fact being manipulated by a warp entity.

But that is not to say ALL psykers are using (or being used by) warp entities.

**Nurglitch**

The quote from Codex: Chaos Daemons to the effect that the Warp is the entities residing in it appears to belay that conclusion.

**Orkeosaurus**

I had always read "Chaos" as the sum of the destructive energies of the warp, including both warp entities and the warp's "raw energy," rather than the sum of the self-aware entities of the warp. The "Gods of Chaos" thus being analagous to kings who rule over people, landscape, structures, and everything else within their domain (Chaos/the warp), rather than the leaders of a race/nation (the Daemons of Chaos).

**Nurglitch**

It's a nice personal interpretation, but categorically not what Codex: Chaos Daemons flatly states.