Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Nurglitch wrote:Alpharius:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.6 wrote:Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.

AgeofEgos:

This "subtle but distinct difference" that you fail to identify has no basis in the background material described in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

Regarding the Formless Wastes:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.8 wrote:The Warp has no physical dimensions, and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography.

I think the problem you're facing is the traditional one facing people that read about the Realm of Chaos, namely that the Warp is like the Material Universe but kinda funny, rather than being a universe with its own laws unlike those of space and time, where terms like "dimension" and "area" don't mean things they do in fiction describing the Material universe. Specifically we are told that they are only metaphorical. You might as well argue that rivers have teeth since they have mouths, as argue that Chaos is not the Chaos Gods because there are areas of the Warp beyond their realms.

In other words there are no areas in the Warp, no boundaries that you can point to that differentiate the Formless Wastes from the realms of the Gods and thus their areas of influence. And that is not despite the fact that Codex: Chaos Daemons states on the page of Codex: Chaos Daemons that: "The areas of influence controlled by the Chaos Gods form their realms, and the rest of this roiling landscape is often referred to as the Formless Wastes, the Land of the Lost Souls or the Chaos Abyss." [Ibid, p.8]

If you want to connect the dots for figuring the existence quantifiers and identity predicates for a non-place that doesn't not exist, you need a five-valued logic. And that's after you disentangle the metaphors.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:"The areas of influence controlled by the Chaos Gods form their realms, and the rest of this roiling landscape is often referred to as the Formless Wastes, the Land of the Lost Souls or the Chaos Abyss."

If you want to connect the dots for figuring the existence quantifiers and identity predicates for a non-place that doesn't not exist, you need a five-valued logic. And that's after you disentangle the metaphors.

I think that line is rather telling nor do I think a person needs to create their own definition, I believe that piece of fluff goes out of its way to define the difference. Consider it goes on to state "Much of the Formless Wastes is random chaos, constantly churning and reforming....". This is in direct contrast with the Chaos Gods (and their realms) reflecting the specific emotions a specific Daemon is based upon (and has been shaped by centuries of feeding on that belief).

I'm still really pissed that the wolf codex psychic powers severely outclass anything my Thousand Sons can cast. Outside of that, the cannon or fluff has gotten pretty butchered over the years. Pick which version you like best, I did.

Alpharius wrote:One of my favorite subjects!

Basically, Alan Merrett screwed up the fluff.

The old version had The Council of Nikaea ban SORCERY and NOT PSYKERS.

Index Astartes wrote:

"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.

The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.

But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.

The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."

The new version screws this up and to date offers no plausible explanation for how psykers (outside of Astropaths and Navigators) were reintroduced to the various military branches...

QFT! Alpharius nails that one on the head. The old version of The Emperor's decree fit exactly what we see in the "current" 40k universe. Psykers are dangerous, but needed, for The Imperium to function. Magnus' vision of entire Legions (now Chapters) of Sorcerer-Astartes was refuted and the Librarium was established allowing for a few, highly trained Astartes Psykers. The backstory about the Council of Nikaea has been changed and the Black Library has yet (if they ever will) to resolve how to explain that change or, more "importantly" (since this is, after all, just backstory about little plastic and metal figures) how to account for exactly what Alpharius notes above. In the new version ALL Legions were to cancel their Librarian programs, to put their Librarians back into battle companies, and the Librarians weree banned from using their powers ever again.

Why do any of the loyalist Chapters have Psykers of any kind in the "current" 40k Universe?

The Emperor's decree at the Council (in the old version) posed no problem. Sorcery was banned, but trained Librarians were allowed. Under the new version, there's simply no way to explain why the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, White Scars, Imperial Fists, etc, etc... can have Librarians except in utter disregard for The Emperor's decree. That would seem to be a major enough decision (every Chapter of the Astartes violating the explicit decree of The Emperor) to demand an explanation. One could argue that some, like perhaps, the Space Wolves don't view their Psykers as Psykers, but EVERY single Chapter? Not gonna buy it.

Either BL made a mistake or there's some revelation to come that will explain the apparent massive violation of The Emperor's decree. Haven't seen the latter and I'm betting on the former.

Valete,

JohnS

AgeofEgos:

So you're reading the background literally. Okay. That's nice.

cygnnus:

It's like we're only halfway through the Horus Heresy and the ramifications of the Council of Nikea haven't been fully explored... So yeah, revelation to come, news at 11.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

So you're reading the background literally. Okay. That's nice.

As literal as the next guy.......now back to painting toy soldiers..

Nurglitch wrote:

cygnnus:

It's like we're only halfway through the Horus Heresy and the ramifications of the Council of Nikea haven't been fully explored... So yeah, revelation to come, news at 11.

I'm betting there's absolutely nothing other than hope in that statement at this point...

There's a lot of weaseling to be done to make "Ramifications" work at this point. The previous version of the story of the Council of Nikaea fit all the fluff. The current version requires that either The Emperor changes his mind, or that the entire Imperium chooses to ignore the Edict of Nikaea. Neither course has a shred of evidence to date.

The alternate is, of course, that someone at the Black Library made a mistake with The Edict which is now part of the HH-era fluff.

Given those two options, I'll stick with Occam and go with the latter before the former.

Of course, at this point, it gets interesting because if it is a mistake, the BL folks have to know about it and will, in a sense, have to have made some kind of "fix". Which could, of course, be sold as "we meant to do this all the time..."

I guess it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Valete,

JohnS

Nurglitch wrote:AgeofEgos:

So you're reading the background literally. Okay. That's nice.

cygnnus:

It's like we're only halfway through the Horus Heresy and the ramifications of the Council of Nikea haven't been fully explored... So yeah, revelation to come, news at 11.

i think you need to put your lit/psych major down a minute, not every writer puts hidden meanings in their work.

cygnnus wrote:*lots 'o text*[...] One could argue that some, like perhaps, the Space Wolves don't view their Psykers as Psykers, but EVERY single Chapter? Not gonna buy it.

Yay, proof that the Black Templars are the only TRUE loyalists! Oh joyful day!

cygnnus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

cygnnus:

It's like we're only halfway through the Horus Heresy and the ramifications of the Council of Nikea haven't been fully explored... So yeah, revelation to come, news at 11.

I'm betting there's absolutely nothing other than hope in that statement at this point...

There's a lot of weaseling to be done to make "Ramifications" work at this point. The previous version of the story of the Council of Nikaea fit all the fluff. The current version requires that either The Emperor changes his mind, or that the entire Imperium chooses to ignore the Edict of Nikaea. Neither course has a shred of evidence to date.

The alternate is, of course, that someone at the Black Library made a mistake with The Edict which is now part of the HH-era fluff.

Given those two options, I'll stick with Occam and go with the latter before the former.

Of course, at this point, it gets interesting because if it is a mistake, the BL folks have to know about it and will, in a sense, have to have made some kind of "fix". Which could, of course, be sold as "we meant to do this all the time..."

I guess it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Valete,

JohnS

I think that cygnnus' has the truth of it!

Alpharius wrote:I think that cygnnus' has the truth of it!

QFT. This mistake is one of my pet peeves also. It proves that all it needs to ruin an otherwise good book is one idiotic scene.

This was a pretty major mess up (at least for now!) though.

Especially as the older Index Astartes article took care of this issue so nicely...

And none of you see anything unreasonable about preferring the hypothesis that GW competely screwed the pooch to the hypothesis that the re-establishment of the Librarium in modern Space Marine Chapters simply hasn't been covered yet...

I mean, hasn't it occurred to anyone here that the modern 40,000 Imperium is nearly the opposite of the 30,000 Imperium? If psyckers in the Space Marine Legions are outlawed in 30k, then it should be unsurprising that they're Codex-standard in the Space Marine Chapters of 40k.

In 30k the true nature of the Warp is a closely guarded secret (Daemons? Just aliens that live in the Warp, a "lesser xenos threat"...), the Emperor conducts violent progroms against the religious, and especially those that would deify him.

Yet no one thinks that GW has failed to explain how the Emperor's violently atheistic vision of the universe resulted in an Imperium in which the Ecclesiarchy is a major power. Nobody complains that there are Legions in 30k and Chapters in 40k, despite every Space Marine Battle Barge carrying Exterminatus-level weaponry (and therefore putting the power to kill a planet in the hands of any Space Marine Sub-Commander).

I would have thought that the Space Wolves would be the most obvious hint that there are different opinions and perspectives on psychic powers in 40k, but that's obviousness for you...

Can anyone guess the major influence on the modern Imperium who is pretty much absent except for a notable scene in The First Heretic, and who reinvented the Imperium after the Emperor was confined to the Golden Throne? Someone who laid down the organization of the modern Space Marine Chapter... I mean, I can see why he was left out of all those Horus Heresy novels that feature the Ultramarines.

Alpharius wrote:

cygnnus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:

cygnnus:

It's like we're only halfway through the Horus Heresy and the ramifications of the Council of Nikea haven't been fully explored... So yeah, revelation to come, news at 11.

I'm betting there's absolutely nothing other than hope in that statement at this point...

There's a lot of weaseling to be done to make "Ramifications" work at this point. The previous version of the story of the Council of Nikaea fit all the fluff. The current version requires that either The Emperor changes his mind, or that the entire Imperium chooses to ignore the Edict of Nikaea. Neither course has a shred of evidence to date.

The alternate is, of course, that someone at the Black Library made a mistake with The Edict which is now part of the HH-era fluff.

Given those two options, I'll stick with Occam and go with the latter before the former.

Of course, at this point, it gets interesting because if it is a mistake, the BL folks have to know about it and will, in a sense, have to have made some kind of "fix". Which could, of course, be sold as "we meant to do this all the time..."

I guess it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Valete,

JohnS

I think that cygnnus' has the truth of it!

Well...keep in mind in Nemesis one of the planetary governors had a sanctioned psyker (One of the characters even made the comment that his influence must have been 'vast' considering he had a psyker after Nikea). So, I'm sure they can just write another line and fix it (as with all sci fi).

Wrong, it was the Rogue Trader that had a sanctioned psycker. Also, was it really necessary to quote all that?

Nurglitch wrote:Also, was it really necessary to quote all that?

Yes

Nurglitch wrote:And none of you see anything unreasonable about preferring the hypothesis that GW competely screwed the pooch to the hypothesis that the re-establishment of the Librarium in modern Space Marine Chapters simply hasn't been covered yet...

I mean, hasn't it occurred to anyone here that the modern 40,000 Imperium is nearly the opposite of the 30,000 Imperium? If psyckers in the Space Marine Legions are outlawed in 30k, then it should be unsurprising that they're Codex-standard in the Space Marine Chapters of 40k.

In 30k the true nature of the Warp is a closely guarded secret (Daemons? Just aliens that live in the Warp, a "lesser xenos threat"...), the Emperor conducts violent progroms against the religious, and especially those that would deify him.

Yet no one thinks that GW has failed to explain how the Emperor's violently atheistic vision of the universe resulted in an Imperium in which the Ecclesiarchy is a major power. Nobody complains that there are Legions in 30k and Chapters in 40k, despite every Space Marine Battle Barge carrying Exterminatus-level weaponry (and therefore putting the power to kill a planet in the hands of any Space Marine Sub-Commander).

I would have thought that the Space Wolves would be the most obvious hint that there are different opinions and perspectives on psychic powers in 40k, but that's obviousness for you...

Can anyone guess the major influence on the modern Imperium who is pretty much absent except for a notable scene in The First Heretic, and who reinvented the Imperium after the Emperor was confined to the Golden Throne? Someone who laid down the organization of the modern Space Marine Chapter... I mean, I can see why he was left out of all those Horus Heresy novels that feature the Ultramarines.

And the basis for assuming BL deliberately re-wrote the fluff surrounding the Edicts, what, exactly? The assumption that "everything is opposite in 40k from 30k"? The 40k universe is a direct, albeit twisted, descendant of the 30k universe.

In 40k, the true nature of the warp is *still* a closely guarded secret. Familiar at all with the fluff about any IG regiment which faces Daemons being executed in toto? Heck, in 40k fluff, even regular Astartes who faced Daemons were mind-wiped.

There is no problem at all with the 40k universe being highly theistic in spite of The Emperor's wish that it be atheistic. How that progression happened been cleanly laid out. And, not surprisingly, that account has remained the same from prior to the Horus Heresy series to the most recent additions to the "canon". Similarly with the transition from Legions to Chapters. There's no problem there at all.

There is a problem, however, with any attempt to reconcile 30k (HH-series) with 40k (the pre-existing fluff) when it comes to the Edicts of Nikaea.

Alpharius helpfully quoted the pre-HH series version of The Edicts of Nikaea, and a chunk is relevant here:

"The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation."

Note, "The Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation". Also note that this version allowed for Psykers akin to "trained athletes" and did outright ban them as the HH series version does. Again, the 40k version cannot be reconciled with the 30k version. Either the 30k version is correct or the 40k version is. There were a huge number of witnesses to the Council of Nikaea. So the likelihood that The Emperor's words were misconstrued are pretty slim.

Now, you have the 40k version of the Edicts which make perfect sense. Magnus' vision of Legions (or in this case, Chapters) composed of Sorcerer-Astartes has been refuted (along with his overall vision of humanity's relationship with the Warp, but that's the more philosophical side of the debate, although that's really what cut Magnus so deeply). But Librarians are still allowed. Fits the 40k fluff perfectly (naturally since that's where it was originated). Then you have the 30k version which make no sense since it cannot account for the presence of Librarians, Sanctioned Psykers, etc either in the Council of Nikaea HH series books, nor in the entire 40k canon...

Again, either BL has some grand revision of the fluff in mind (an assumption that we do not yet, that I've seen, have any evidence to support) or there was a mistake. Considering the degree to which BL has tried to hold true to the 40k account of the Heresy, I'd suggest the former's less likely. But I could, of course, be wrong and we'll probably never know for sure.

As I've said, it's possible, that BL will do the required weasel work to make it all work some how. In fact, I'd argue that they'll have to at this point since they have a pretty huge failure in their continuity at this point. But that doesn't mean that they meant to do so all along. That's one of the dangers of things like the HH series is that you'll run afoul of existing fluff. See what the folks owning the Star Trek franchise did with the new movie. They decided on a complete "reset" of the universe so they can avoid the fanboys (read us in this case!) jumping all over them when they get something wrong...

But this is really arguing about the angels on the head of a pin. It'll be moot in some sense since, as I've said, BL has to do something to make it make sense or else (I presume) even the most faithful BL-adherents will have to admit that BL screwed it up somehow. So I'm guessing there will be a resolution. I do wonder if it'll be any improvement on what was, previously, a perfectly fine story...

Valete,

JohnS

Nurglitch wrote:Yet no one thinks that GW has failed to explain how the Emperor's violently atheistic vision of the universe resulted in an Imperium in which the Ecclesiarchy is a major power.

its pretty easy to understand how it would happen, same as jesus (a man we are told was a progressive free thinker) once he died, dogma replaced belief as the main source of veneration, leading to stagnating religious bodies. the emperor gave his life to end the split in the empire, saving humanity from destruction and it turns out he is practically immortal, its pretty obvious dogma would take over and humans would worship him.

cygnnus:

My point is that complaining that the Black Library has somehow screwed the pooch by deviating from canon background materials, and doing so before the Horus Heresy series is complete, before the whole story is told, is stupid and willfully ignorant. Complaining about it and vilifying the writers in the Black Library for this perceived mistake is willfully ignorant because we know that the whole story hasn't been told yet and we know it hasn't been told yet, and that there's vast swathes of it remaining to be told. It's stupid when there's plenty of legitimate problems of consistency with the Horus Heresy series that actually have a basis in what has actually been written, instead of being dreamed up by malicious idiots looking for problems to complain about.

I saw this so much in You Make Da Call that I stopped posting in the forum because I was sick of morons identifying some so-called problem with the rules and the inevitable idiots chorus of "Hurr, GW did it again!" Yeah, GW makes mistakes, and the background isn't consistent, so how about we stick to the actual mistakes they've made (Iacton Qruze, Terran veteran or Cthonian veteran, which is it?) rather than trying to rubbish the guys who actually produce something for our hobby. It sure beats trying to shove mis-readings of 1st edition background materials into a 5th edition canon.

/rant

Nurglitch wrote:cygnnus:

My point is that complaining that the Black Library has somehow screwed the pooch by deviating from canon background materials, and doing so before the Horus Heresy series is complete, before the whole story is told, is stupid and willfully ignorant. Complaining about it and vilifying the writers in the Black Library for this perceived mistake is willfully ignorant because we know that the whole story hasn't been told yet and we know it hasn't been told yet, and that there's vast swathes of it remaining to be told. It's stupid when there's plenty of legitimate problems of consistency with the Horus Heresy series that actually have a basis in what has actually been written, instead of being dreamed up by malicious idiots looking for problems to complain about.

I saw this so much in You Make Da Call that I stopped posting in the forum because I was sick of morons identifying some so-called problem with the rules and the inevitable idiots chorus of "Hurr, GW did it again!" Yeah, GW makes mistakes, and the background isn't consistent, so how about we stick to the actual mistakes they've made (Iacton Qruze, Terran veteran or Cthonian veteran, which is it?) rather than trying to rubbish the guys who actually produce something for our hobby. It sure beats trying to shove mis-readings of 1st edition background materials into a 5th edition canon.

/rant

wow, high horse much

Nurglitch wrote:cygnnus:

My point is that complaining that the Black Library has somehow screwed the pooch by deviating from canon background materials, and doing so before the Horus Heresy series is complete, before the whole story is told, is stupid and willfully ignorant. Complaining about it and vilifying the writers in the Black Library for this perceived mistake is willfully ignorant because we know that the whole story hasn't been told yet and we know it hasn't been told yet, and that there's vast swathes of it remaining to be told. It's stupid when there's plenty of legitimate problems of consistency with the Horus Heresy series that actually have a basis in what has actually been written, instead of being dreamed up by malicious idiots looking for problems to complain about.

I saw this so much in You Make Da Call that I stopped posting in the forum because I was sick of morons identifying some so-called problem with the rules and the inevitable idiots chorus of "Hurr, GW did it again!" Yeah, GW makes mistakes, and the background isn't consistent, so how about we stick to the actual mistakes they've made (Iacton Qruze, Terran veteran or Cthonian veteran, which is it?) rather than trying to rubbish the guys who actually produce something for our hobby. It sure beats trying to shove mis-readings of 1st edition background materials into a 5th edition canon.

/rant

Ah... My mistake. I forgot this was the internet where personal attacks are used whenever one has no evidence to support their position. Please excuse me if I don't reciprocate. Despite evidently being a "stupid willfully ignorant malicious idiot", I'd still suggest you're operating solely on hope here, with no evidence that BL planned this change in the fluff...

Yes, the whole story of the Heresy has not been told in the HH series. But we do know that the HH series account of The Emperor's Edicts at The Council of Nikaea are not consistent (or even compatible) with the pre-existing 40k fluff. I may be mistaken, but I'm not aware of any other example in the HH series where the HH series account was not consistent with the pre-existing fluff. Sure we have additional insights into the actors, that we didn't have before. We have accounts, details, motivations, etc... that didn't exist before. But has anything significant been changed aside from the outcome of The Council of Nikaea?

That's an honest question. If there have been other significant changes that require radical additional work to make compatible with pre-existing fluff, I'd probably have to reconsider my opinion on the nature of the changes to the account of the Council of Nikaea. But I'm not aware of any, no doubt because of my stupid, willfully ignorant, and malicious nature. But if there aren't any it would certainly, to me, suggest this case is unique and, therefore, needing an some proof before I'd be willing to say it's "business as usual for BL".

Oh. I forgot. The issue of Iacton Qruze's origins is most certainly a critically important plot point upon which our entire understanding of the Horus Heresy and the resulting 40k universe rests, but I think I'll have to ask for another if I may.

Now, where is the evidence that BL has otherwise changed the the account of the Horus Heresy to the extent, as we know it so far, that a significant chunk of the fluff of the 40k universe simply does not make sense. And that's spelled e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e. Not a-d-h-o-m-i-n-e-m.

As an aside, the fluff about The Council of Nikaea is not 1st ed fluff, in fact if memory serves The Council of Nikaea is nowhere to be found in Rogue Trader. I don't recall the exact timing but, IIRC, the second volume of the Realms of Chaos came out late in the RT-era at best. Alpharius quoted the relevant part from an Index Astartes article, so I'm also not really moved by the whole "shoving a mis-reading" thing either since the language was pretty clear.

As a second aside, I actually hope you're right. I dearly hope they have a good reason for their account of The Council of Nikaea. The Thousand Sons are my favorite 40k army, primarily because of their back-story. The HH series has taken the pivotal moment in that back story and, essentially, made it nonsensical, and with it a significant chunk of the 40k story as well. I dearly want to believe they did it for a reason and not because someone made a mistake (is that vilifying? I don't believe so, but whatever). I don't believe anyone (although I'm sure you can prove me wrong here Nurglitch) would argue that the account we have now can "stand" and not have an issue with why there are Librarians in the 40k universe. But I just don't see the evidence that BL did it deliberately, and I certainly haven't seen it presented by you in this thread...

Valete,

JohnS

cygnnus:

If you're going to do something stupid, I'm going to point out that it's stupid. If you're going to take it as saying that you're stupid, to mistake my assessment of the worth of your actions for your worth as a person, then maybe the shoe fits. So how about you grow up and point out how you aren't doing things that are willfully ignorant and stupid, instead of making it personal?

Good, now that we're past that, let me point out the major deviations that the Horus Heresy series has made so far to established background: Abbadon, not Horus' clone son, not even rumoured. Fulgrim? Not corrupted in the lodges of the Davin. A ground war on Istvaan? Really? Lorgar being personally censured by the Emperor for carrying on a ~150 year religious crusade? Horus being corrupted by Erebus? Sure, if we're going to refer to 4th edition background material, why not 3rd? Or 2nd? or 1st? It turns out that the background material warps and changes according to the needs of the author in question and the copy that needs writing. Unexplained plot holes are the name of the game in 40k, they're left there so they can be filled in at a later date. Considering that a major theme of the Horus Heresy is the incredibly slippery slope between grand aspirations and damnation, I'm really glad they changed from a pat consistent 'just-so' story to something that isn't just the minutes of established background material.

As mentioned, you don't have to be stupid, or willfully ignorant, or malicious to do things that are stupid, or willfully ignorant. You are obviously wise, with a good heart and good intentions, else you wouldn't feel the need to call GW out on the gratuitous mistreatment of their fans the plot hole that is the Council of Nikea represents. However, doing so is willfully ignorant because you also know that GW both changes the background, has barely mentioned the most important legion in the post-heresy universe, and is nowhere near close to completing the Horus Heresy series. It's just another 'plot hole' awaiting closure, if GW makes the wrong decision, and another mystery of the 40k universe that fans can fill in the blanks if GW makes the right decision.

Nurglitch wrote:cygnnus:

If you're going to do something stupid, I'm going to point out that it's stupid. If you're going to take it as saying that you're stupid, to mistake my assessment of the worth of your actions for your worth as a person, then maybe the shoe fits. So how about you grow up and point out how you aren't doing things that are willfully ignorant and stupid, instead of making it personal?

Good, now that we're past that, let me point out the major deviations that the Horus Heresy series has made so far to established background: Abbadon, not Horus' clone son, not even rumoured. Fulgrim? Not corrupted in the lodges of the Davin. A ground war on Istvaan? Really? Lorgar being personally censured by the Emperor for carrying on a ~150 year religious crusade? Horus being corrupted by Erebus? Sure, if we're going to refer to 4th edition background material, why not 3rd? Or 2nd? or 1st? It turns out that the background material warps and changes according to the needs of the author in question and the copy that needs writing. Unexplained plot holes are the name of the game in 40k, they're left there so they can be filled in at a later date. Considering that a major theme of the Horus Heresy is the incredibly slippery slope between grand aspirations and damnation, I'm really glad they changed from a pat consistent 'just-so' story to something that isn't just the minutes of established background material.

As mentioned, you don't have to be stupid, or willfully ignorant, or malicious to do things that are stupid, or willfully ignorant. You are obviously wise, with a good heart and good intentions, else you wouldn't feel the need to call GW out on the gratuitous mistreatment of their fans the plot hole that is the Council of Nikea represents. However, doing so is willfully ignorant because you also know that GW both changes the background, has barely mentioned the most important legion in the post-heresy universe, and is nowhere near close to completing the Horus Heresy series. It's just another 'plot hole' awaiting closure, if GW makes the wrong decision, and another mystery of the 40k universe that fans can fill in the blanks if GW makes the right decision.

Sorry Nurglitch... That's a cop-out, and you should full well know it. Accusation by -at best- thinly veiled implication is still accusation and I'll still call you out on it. And even in your cop-out, you just can't stop yourself from throwing out more accusations. Calling you out is not not needing to "grow up", it's expecting common courtesy when dealing with someone who has not insulted you. I would, rather, suggest you spend a bit of time looking at your past posts on this thread (and by no means just in reply to my postings) and consider heeding your own advice...

But no matter, you're still grasping at straws. Not one of the "major deviations" you point to poses a problem at all to the 40k fluff.

What does Abbadon being a clone of Horus or not have to do with anything critical? Aside from the fact that ALL Astartes are, in a sense, clone children of their Primarchs, it doesn't change much of anything either way.

What does Fulgrim have to do with Davin? Unless I'm really forgetting something, neither account has him corrupted at Davin.

I'm assuming you're talking about Isstvan III? What's the issue there that makes the 40k fluff untenable? I certainly don't recall if, in the original fluff regarding Isstvan III, there was mention of a ground war, but even if there wasn't an account of a ground war in the old fluff, why would there be? And there isn't an account of it, then the BL's simply filled in a lacuna. The 40k universe's fluff is dominated by the Imperium. The loyalist survivors of Isstvan would never likely have been free to tell the story since they got shunted off to the Inquisition and in any event they wouldn't have likely known there was a battle at all since they (again as I recall) fled on the Eisenstein before the ground phase started. The lack of any Imperial account of a ground battle at Isstvan III would hardly be surprising, but in any event it's not at all relevant to the 40k fluff. If you're talking about Isstvan V, then I really have nothing to say...

What's the problem with Lorgar's censure, according to the HH version, that's incompatible with the 40k version? He was censured in both cases and that lead him down the path of finding a power that was worthy of being worshiped. How does the HH-series account pose a problem for the 40k universe?

What's the problem with Horus' corruption being facilitated by Erebus?

Not one of those claimed "deviations" (and I'd dispute many of them being "deviations" anyway) poses the least bit of problem to the 40k fluff. In fact, those are all exactly the sorts of details you'd expect the HH series to add to the existing storyline. They fill in gaps. They provide details that were missing or lightly covered. That's exactly what you'd want the HH series to do! The pre-existing fluff regarding the Heresy is not much more than a framework that the BL's been using to flesh out a vast series of books. None of the above represent a breaking of that framework, but simply filling in gaps and expanding accounts.

The conflicting accounts of the Edicts of Nikaea *are* a break in the pre-existing framework. That makes this case unique (again unless someone has another, valid, example where it's happened), and that suggests a something's different here. Either they made a mistake or they have some grand, unprecedented, and utterly unique -but as of yet not even hinted at- revision to a very specific part of the Heresy story. Again, I'd go with Occam and assume the simpler answer is that someone made a mistake.

You are certainly correct that GW has modified the back stories over the years, heck the original Ultramarines were not a First Founding Chapter and had a half-Eldar Chief Librarian. But it is certainly not "willfully ignorant" to recognize that they haven't modified the core stories much, if at all, since the current canon was more or less solidified in the late RT/early v2 era.

You seem to be holding great hope that the appearance of Roboute Guilliman and the Ultras will be the fix... Their post-Heresy role may never be told since it's not part of the Heresy proper, but you're certainly free to hold that belief.

What it would seem, to me, you're looking for is Guilliman deciding that tImperium needs to have Astartes Psykers to survive after the death of The Emperor, then changing all of the Imperial records to conceal The Emperor's actual Edicts, to include getting buy-in from the surviving loyalist Primarchs who knew that the Edicts actually were -not the least of which being Leman Russ. Plus, you have The Edicts followed closely by the incontrovertible proof of the dangers of sorcery in the actions of the Thousand Sons at Prospero, and Horus' force at Terra. After all that, Guilliman is going to overturn the Edicts and go against the express word of The Emperor? I just don't buy it. But hey, maybe there's a good story there! We'll have to see if BL tells it. Still doesn't add much, though, when the previous version of the story worked perfectly well and didn't require any mental gymnastics...

Valete,

JohnS

Inconsistency is inconsistency, and GW background changes and mutates to fit their marketing needs. Expecting perfect consistency from a series of novels about the Horus Heresy is unreasonable, and expecting it to be consistent with prior 'canon' in 40k is likewise unreasonable.

It is said that the past is the best indicator of the future, which is not entirely true. The past and the best theory about how it occurred is the best indicator of the future. We know that GW has changed its 'canon', that its canon is inconsistent in the details (e.g. Abbadon, Qruze, Magnus' eye, etc), and that major deviations are made for dramatic purposes (e.g. Istvaan's ground war, Fulgrim's temptation on Davin, Lorgar's censure, etc). That means major inconsistencies are intentional, 'innovations' that are made for dramatic effect because the background is whatever they want it to be.

The new version(s) of the Council of Nikea are inconsistent with prior versions. So? Does that indicate that GW fluffed it? No, because it is not a minor detail like Qruze's origin, Horus' genetic status, or Magnus' eye. It's a major inconsistency made partway through a series that has already changed Fulgrim's damnation narrative, the Istvaan virus bombing, Lorgar's censure, each of which included a pay-off in other books. The Istvaan ground war is concommitant with the Flight of the Eisenstein (the event, rather than the book), Fulgrim's damnation becomes tragic when he refuses to kill the Gorgon, and explains the Dropsite massacres (how did the Iron Hands get taken out of the conflict?).

Lorgar's censure raises the question of timing explicitly that the Index Astartes glossed over, why would the Emperor let Lorgar prosecute a religious crusade for ~150 years? Maybe people haven't gotten around to grousing about it, but that seems like a major 'inconsistency' far outside of the Librarian issue, and which also remains unresolved.

But that's the key: unresolved. When something is unresolved, you should abstain from judgment. Deciding that GW screwed up while the Horus Heresy series remains incomplete is stupid because it is unresolved. We all know it is unresolved. You'd have to engage in willful ignorance to complain that GW had screwed the pooch because they didn't slavishly adhere to prior background when it didn't suit them.

It doesn't take "mental gymnastics" to plot ahead and commensurate the new version of Nikea with the existence of Librarium departments in the independent Chapters that Roboute Guillliman defined as the original author of the Codex Astartes. He's the most practical and flexible Primarch, and if there's anything the Primarchs have gained in the Horus Heresy series, it's their own opinions about the good of the Imperium apart from the edicts of the Emperor.

So the Emperor handed down a politically expedient edict at the Council of Nikea. Magnus directly disobeyed it. Russ tacitly ignored it. I don't see why Librarium departments wouldn't have gone underground or simply ignored the edict until it was sanctioned by Guilliman. It's not like the Librarians would have simply stopped using their powers: The Battle for the Abyss is just another instance of the utility of psyckers and having official controls. A policy of strict abstinence from psychic activity would have been as effective as every abstinenceb-based program... As Buck Turgidson says in Doctor Strangelove, "I think General Ripper has invalided that policy!"

It's like, okay, the Emperor banned psyckers from the Legions Astartes. The Emperor also banned people from worshipping gods and engaging in religious observance. The Emperor made Horus the Warmaster. Clearly mistakes are made during the Heresy and the survivors learned from them.

Nurglitch wrote:Inconsistency is inconsistency, and GW background changes and mutates to fit their marketing needs. Expecting perfect consistency from a series of novels about the Horus Heresy is unreasonable, and expecting it to be consistent with prior 'canon' in 40k is likewise unreasonable.

It is said that the past is the best indicator of the future, which is not entirely true. The past and the best theory about how it occurred is the best indicator of the future. We know that GW has changed its 'canon', that its canon is inconsistent in the details (e.g. Abbadon, Qruze, Magnus' eye, etc), and that major deviations are made for dramatic purposes (e.g. Istvaan's ground war, Fulgrim's temptation on Davin, Lorgar's censure, etc). That means major inconsistencies are intentional, 'innovations' that are made for dramatic effect because the background is whatever they want it to be.

The new version(s) of the Council of Nikea are inconsistent with prior versions. So? Does that indicate that GW fluffed it? No, because it is not a minor detail like Qruze's origin, Horus' genetic status, or Magnus' eye. It's a major inconsistency made partway through a series that has already changed Fulgrim's damnation narrative, the Istvaan virus bombing, Lorgar's censure, each of which included a pay-off in other books. The Istvaan ground war is concommitant with the Flight of the Eisenstein (the event, rather than the book), Fulgrim's damnation becomes tragic when he refuses to kill the Gorgon, and explains the Dropsite massacres (how did the Iron Hands get taken out of the conflict?).

Lorgar's censure raises the question of timing explicitly that the Index Astartes glossed over, why would the Emperor let Lorgar prosecute a religious crusade for ~150 years? Maybe people haven't gotten around to grousing about it, but that seems like a major 'inconsistency' far outside of the Librarian issue, and which also remains unresolved.

But that's the key: unresolved. When something is unresolved, you should abstain from judgment. Deciding that GW screwed up while the Horus Heresy series remains incomplete is stupid because it is unresolved. We all know it is unresolved. You'd have to engage in willful ignorance to complain that GW had screwed the pooch because they didn't slavishly adhere to prior background when it didn't suit them.

It doesn't take "mental gymnastics" to plot ahead and commensurate the new version of Nikea with the existence of Librarium departments in the independent Chapters that Roboute Guillliman defined as the original author of the Codex Astartes. He's the most practical and flexible Primarch, and if there's anything the Primarchs have gained in the Horus Heresy series, it's their own opinions about the good of the Imperium apart from the edicts of the Emperor.

So the Emperor handed down a politically expedient edict at the Council of Nikea. Magnus directly disobeyed it. Russ tacitly ignored it. I don't see why Librarium departments wouldn't have gone underground or simply ignored the edict until it was sanctioned by Guilliman. It's not like the Librarians would have simply stopped using their powers: The Battle for the Abyss is just another instance of the utility of psyckers and having official controls. A policy of strict abstinence from psychic activity would have been as effective as every abstinenceb-based program... As Buck Turgidson says in Doctor Strangelove, "I think General Ripper has invalided that policy!"

It's like, okay, the Emperor banned psyckers from the Legions Astartes. The Emperor also banned people from worshipping gods and engaging in religious observance. The Emperor made Horus the Warmaster. Clearly mistakes are made during the Heresy and the survivors learned from them.

Well... I'm guessing we'll just have to settle on disagreeing on the point then. I'll still hold that none of your examples in any way have a real impact on the 40k universe. All of them are, at best, minor variations on the existing canon that flesh out specific parts of the Heresy. None of them are incompatible with the 40k fluff in any real way.

Now, for a counter-factual example of what I'd consider an "equivalent" breech between 30k and 40k fluff would be if, say, the BL decided -out of the blue- to add in a story about how The Emperor found out the degree to which Erebus was responsible for the Heresy and, in response, issued an Edict (witnessed by numerous Primarchs, Malcador, the Custodes, and high-level Adminstratum functionaries) decreeing that Chaplains were forever to be banned from the Astartes. That is, in a sense, exactly what the "new" version of the Council of Nikaea has done. I'm guessing that, in a case like that, you'd simply stay "the story hasn't been fully written" and therefore there's no problem, right? <shrug>

Heck, even in that case, I'd tend to think it was more likely to be a deliberate deviation than the change to the account of the Council of Nikaea since it would be so out of the blue it would almost have to be deliberate. The change to the Council of Nikaea seems to me to be more likely from someone not really understanding the line that, at least in the 40k version, The Emperor was trying to walk. The 40k version had subtlety and nuance. The 30k version doesn't.

Again, I'm thinking we'll just have to settle on disagreeing on the issue and we'll probably never know the "true" answer. I realize it makes my position a bit problematic since it is -in essence- unfalsifiable, but I do think that the BL will have to find *some* solution to the breech between the 30k and 40k versions whether it was deliberate or not. As I stated before, I *hope* they pull it off, and it'll probably be impossible post-facto to determine if it was a deliberate choice. Regardless, I'll be curious to see the "payoff", if it's there. The BL took a nuanced account, which slotted in with all existing fluff, and created a far less subtle account, which cannot (certainly so far at least) be reconciled with the fluff about the Librarium. We'll see how it turns out...

Valete,

JohnS

The 40k in of itself fluff is a mutating monster - just consider Ork reproduction and the major changes that has had. What you have to consider as 'canon' is that each piece of data is probably merely propaganda.
That said this discussion or indeed discussion on this subject is not irrelevant.
(Trying not to be too wordy.)
From a point of view on the HH and the stipulations between the three branches of fluff (BL-new, 1-3rd ed +BL out of stock, and 4th/5th) You have to produce what in rational terms 'leaps of logic'.
These are provided as three things:
1: Many eyes make a LESS reliable story. See police witness statements.
2: Time corrupts all accounts
3: The writer will change things based on what HE wants you to see.

So if we assume, just for a second, that as standing ALL the data provided is true. Who is lying?
The logical answer is Arhirim - the 'author' of A thousand Suns. Indeed he has the most to lose by stating his actions were because he had not the respect to give up his abilities.

If we assume its the author's fault there's a discrepancy - which of the three spheres of literature are wrong? Do we even have the right to say one of them is wrong?
I firmly believe the Warhammer (future) universe is a matter of propaganda.

As for taking any book as law - I have to say I don't. Indeed I bought the illistrated Horus Heresy Compendium to add to my knowledge.

(If others can give me pointers to lore I might have missed, a PM would rock.)

Sadly, PROSPERO BURNS 'backs up' THE THOUSAND SONS and "HH Compendium" version.

We're still left without even a hint of how this whole mess gets resolved, even though it was never a mess in the IA version to begin with...

Alpharius wrote:Sadly, PROSPERO BURNS 'backs up' THE THOUSAND SONS and "HH Compendium" version.

We're still left without even a hint of how this whole mess gets resolved, even though it was never a mess in the IA version to begin with...

We're still years out from reaching the Battle of Terra too.

Likely, they decided they didn't like the IA version(which has happened before, with quite a bit of older fluff having changes made to it) and are working towards a conclusion.

Remember that from everything we've been told, the writers do spend a lot of time planning everything out. It's the whole reason they have the Horus Heresy writer's meetings.

Oh, I'm sure that there's a "Plan", but I'm not sure that it is a good one...