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Hey guys and gals. When using the power, and the target squad fails its LD test, what weapons must it fire? If the unit has multiple ranged weapons, like bolt pistols and bolter, meltas, combi weapons, and a heavy weapon. can the owning player of the squad just choose to shoot bolt pistols? or can the owning player of the changeling choose to fire the bolters, melta, combi weapons, and heavy weapons? the rule says to fire all weapons, no holding back! so would that mean they fire every single ranged weapon that they have?

All weapons is all weapons. It is a special rule and does not specify any specific weapons or anything else; plus the only FAQ on it is that it only effects 1 unit.

Now; it does not say "regardless of movement restrictions" or anything of that sort, so if you move you may not fire heavy weapons nor Rapid fire weapons beyond 12".

but how can an infantry model fire 2 weapons in 1 shooting phase? Isn't this explicitly against the rules?

I would say glamours choice ... although there are no rules supporting

yes i agree i dont think they will be able to fire outside the normal rules for shooting, ie moving and shooting heavy weapons. but now i just need to know what weapons are shot if it has multiple options.

You can still only shoot one weapon, as the rules for infantry state this and there is no more specific rule overriding this.

There is also nothing allowing the opposing player to choose which weapons fire, so in theory you could choose to fire your least powerful weapojns, where you havea choice.

actually had this happen to me before ...

The officiate ruled in favor of my opponent
so my speeder squadron pelted my marines with 4 krak missles and 6 heavy bolter shots

I tried to argue but alas ... When a stranger impedes on a local tourney they plot against you

yea in theory, theory doesnt really help when im looking for an actual rules clarification. in theory i can shoot all weapons equipped on the models. since the rules in the codex says all weapons. and there are several times in a codex where a special rule over rides or contradicts a rule in the rulebook.

i dont want to shoot all the weapons, i dont feel RAW supports that. what i do need is a clarification on what weapons are shot.

my take is the LD test is passed, you shoot what you want at what you want. LD test is failed i shoot what i want at what i want. again no rules to support that either, its just a theory.

Yet there is no specific rule for them to fire all weapons, when infantry are specifically only allowed to fire one weapon.

Whats the actual text? I'm not feeling like going outside in the snow for my daemon codex at present ... brr ... cold

Unfortunately I think the player chooses weapons, you choose target.

Or would it be more like

Player A chooses to fire at Prince B using 2x Meltaguns & 1 plasma gun, so on and so on.

Player B Chooses to Glamour

Player A fails test (oh noes)

Player B makes Player A own his CCS

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet there is no specific rule for them to fire all weapons, when infantry are specifically only allowed to fire one weapon.

yes there is, in the text for glamour of tzeentch. it says must fire all weapons, no holding back! so right there is the text that says they must fire all weapons. which is a special rule that contradicts the rulebook. codex trumps rulebook.

seriously, its not a matter of firing a bolter and a bolt pistol, i just need to know which of the two is being fired.

Choosing to fire the weaker weapon would be a form of "holding back," so it should probably be interpreted as firing whatever weapons will statistically hurt the target the most. Most of the time there won't be an issue, since comparatively few models carry multiple ranged weapons when they're unable to fire more than one of them.

Incorrect.

Specific rule overrides general rule. In this case "must fire all weapons" is more general than the specific "infantry may only fire 1 weapon, MCs may fire two"

Specific > General and NOT NOT NOT codex > rulebook.

no it is very specific, MUST is a very specific word. ALL is a very specific word. MUST fire ALL weapons, looky there two very specific words in a very specific sentence. That very specific sentence is also in a special rule. making it a very specific special rule. therefor by your interpretations the models must fire all weapons.

Sigh.

No, it really isnt more specific. The set of all infantry models that can fire 1 weapon only is more specific than the set of all models, which is what Glamour applies to. Making it more specific.

It does not specificallly override the "infantry may only fire one weapon", so it doesnt. That's it.

However you appear to want it to be able to fire every weapon a model has, and despite many people saying otherwise you still cling to that and refuse to see it any other way. Which is your choice, but it doesnt make it "the rules".

zachwho, a rule stating that a unit must do the impossible does not constitute permission to do the impossible.

If you're willing to concede that the unit can't fire heavy weapons if it moved even though the rule says that the unit must fire all of its weapons, then you also have to concede that all of the other shooting restrictions must also still apply.

i concede the point that they cant actual fire pistols and bolters at the same time, i know they cant. i was more or less pointing out the flaws in nosferatus reasoning, all i want to know is if the model has more then one ranged weapon, or a combi weapon even, which weapons are fired. who gets to decide which weapons the glamoured unit is firing. i understand that normal shooting restrictions and rules apply.

how does glamour read?

Do you control the shooting or do you only pick the target?

Glamour of Tzeentch: the changeling has a unique mind bending power...

this power can be used in the enemy shooting phase. pick any enemy unit that is visible to the changeling and is about to fire. if the unit is found to be within 24" of the changeling, it is affected by his mind altering mirage.

the unit may choose to hold its fire, and just stand around confused in this shooting phase without moving. it may instead choose to open fire anyway, trying to see through the glamour. in this case the unit must take a ld test (vehicles are affected too, but have ld 10). if the test is passed the unit sees through the glamour and may fire as normal.

if the test is failed, the unit must immediately fire all of its weapons (no holding back!) against a friendly unit, chosen by the changeling among any of the enemies he can see. if the changeling cannot see a second enemy unit, the enemy which failed the test will simply stand around confused, as described above.

It says "the unit must immediately fire all its weapons (no holding back!) at a friendly unit, chosen by the Changeling among any of the enemies he can see." That presumably means everything that it can legally fire, and if a model has a choice between two weapons, either of which could be legally fired, it must be whichever would cause the most damage, since picking a weapon that couldn't hit the target or would be less likely to hurt it would constitute holding back.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:It says "the unit must immediately fire all its weapons (no holding back!) at a friendly unit, chosen by the Changeling among any of the enemies he can see." That presumably means everything that it can legally fire, and if a model has a choice between two weapons, either of which could be legally fired, it must be whichever would cause the most damage, since picking a weapon that couldn't hit the target or would be less likely to hurt it would constitute holding back.

I do disagree to this, firing all weapons (no holding back) simply put means you must fire max possible weapons. If I have a choice between a Meltagun and bolt pistol I'm going to fire the bolt pistol as I'm not holding back and am meeting the requirement of the "ability"

Holding back means doing anything to minimize the potential damage. As in "you are holding back your stronger weapons to reduce the likelihood of damage".

You're taking holding back out of context in the rules though.

Must fire all weapons(no holding back) I'll fire 10 bolt pistols and not hold back a lick. opposed to the combi-melta, melta, and 8 bolters

Holding back would be doing anything at all to weaken the potential attack. Which in this case means selecting weaker weapons to arbitrarily reduce the potential damage.

No in this case (holding back) is for making all models shoot. There is nothing to specify what weapons must be shot. As controlling player it will be their choice

Where do you get "for making all models shoot" when it's talking about weapons? If you are choosing a weaker weapon, or one that doesn't have enough range to hit the target, over a stronger one, you are quite blatantly holding back. The whole point of glamour is to put someone in the position of choosing between doing nothing, and risking shooting one of their own units for the chance to fire as normal. If they can screw around with what the attack ends up being when they lose to minimize potential damage it loses the edge of "yeah, you could try to fire, but it could hurt you pretty bad."

Must fire all weapons, If I choose to fire all weapons albeit not the most potent ones ...

I did not hold back according to the clause as I fired all weapons.

For instance

squadron (2x Landspeeder typhoon MSL+HB)
failed leadership now must shoot into a rhino
I will fire all weapons not some of the weapons
as I would normaly be entitled to however I can't ( because it tells me no holding back)

I choose Frag missles and heavy bolters
opposed to krak missles and heavy bolters

my person take on it (never got to use in an actual game) is this way:

Player A chooses the target and what weapons he is going to use (IE. "This squad is going to shoot krak missles at that soulgrinder")
Player B says hold up, letting my changling do his thing
Player A rolls Ld test
Player A fails
Player B chooses the rhino as target
Player A MUST shoot with krak missles since he declared them as the weapon

@ tk thats how im going to start playing it, weapons to be fired will need to specified before taking the LD test, and pass or fail thats what your going to shoot.

certainly keeps people from "holding back" as if the do "hold back" then succeed the test, they dont do as much to the target they WANTED to hurt

you can try to play it that way, but there's no rules to back it up.

The fact there's no required time for it to happen ie; beginning of phase makes it a bit more problematic.

However I doubt you can break the shooting sequence described on pg 15 of the BGB