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theres no rules to support it either way, its a very vague rule outside of the LD test being taken. theres no concrete swing in either direction, and i will have to say that the fairest way to decide the weapons shot, is to decide the weapons to be shot before the LD test is taken.

The guy costs 5 pts don't expect much

besides according to that logic I can wait until the damage step

no you cant. "Pick any unit that is visible to the Changeling and is about to fire." that means they already declared who was shooting with what at whom

Than about to fire is before the shooting sequence begins.

step 1 check LoS and declare target

About to fire is "I want to fire with this unit"

It is before you choose weapons OR pick a target.

the clause about "no holding back", when kept in context, is immediately about firing all weapons - so as long as you have fired at least 1 weapon per model, as appropriate, you HAVE fulfilled this criteria.

ok nos thanks for your input.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is also nothing allowing the opposing player to choose which weapons fire, so in theory you could choose to fire your least powerful weapojns, where you havea choice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
the clause about "no holding back", when kept in context, is immediately about firing all weapons - so as long as you have fired at least 1 weapon per model, as appropriate, you HAVE fulfilled this criteria.

By the same token, then one hasn't fired 'all' one's weapons then, argument could be made for this being explicit permission to fire 'all one's weapons', not just the 'one' weapon one would prefer...
Otherwise they would have said 'all models fire upon a friendly unit' or something similar... right?...

Except the normal firing restrictions still apply, as "firing all weapons" doesnt override "troops can only fire one weapon" and "you cannot fire heavy weapons if you have moved" as it is not more specific than either of those.

back to that are we...

actually like i said above: must fire all weapons is very specific, and it would over ride the normal restrictions on shooting. just like all other special rules override a particular rule of some sort in the BGB. your reasoning as to why it doesnt apply in this case is flawed. your trying to state that your opinion on whats more specific is of greater weight than what is actually very specific.

im really not contesting the ability to shoot more than one weapon, im contesting your reasoning on why. its an opinion, no rules support or back your reasoning. thats the point of a special rule, they over ride BGB standard rules we play by.

if the case can be made that you can shoot the weakest of your equipment, then the case can be made that you must fire all of your weapons. thats what the rule says to do. must immediately fire all weapons. i dont know whats not specific about that, or whats hard to understand. quit trying to turn RAW into nos's personal opinion. you cant pick and choose what parts of a special rule you want to use.

Except it isnt, as I have explained. With maths, and everything.

Special rules only override what they SPECIFICALLY override; the specifically part is what you are struggling with.

I have given rules support, you have given none and have made your mind up. IU am simply posting the correct rules for the benefit of others.

ok nos we can just agree to disagree, still the question asked hasnt been answered all i want to know is whats shot. but i have already made my mind up, i know how ill handle it in the future. thank you nos for your help.

specific ( if a model has moved it may not fire a heavy weapon)
Less specific ( must fire all weapons)
Specific (troops can only fire one weapon)
vague (must fire all weapons)

So as you can probably tell from my posts, i dont post very often, but im generally on Dakka every day reading about one thing or another, but Nos, and Jd, you are kinda the reason i shy away from the YMDC section. I play Deamons, i play wolves, i had tau and i had nids, and now im working on eldar. Wording is very very important in a game full of wanna be lawyers and sharks.....

But today i am ashamed. and i got to say if i pulled Glamour off with my changling on your unit, and the unit who was ABOUT to melta gun the CRAP out of my soulgrinder, magically wanted to switch to bolt pistols because its "Fullfilling" a critera, im going to say you are breaking the one true RULE of the game. Which is the SPIRIT of the game. and i probably would not like to play any game with you after that. I know the changling is only 5 points. but do you know how HARD it is for a decent unit (by that standard i mean any of the new codex's of units or anything that would actually be important) to fail a leadership test? especially with the amount of rerolls you see today? even more so the fact that most the units are LD10?

Now i can see, From both of your perspectives on this rule, i really do, and in a tournament since i generally TO i'd probably make the call to either choose the weapons you wish to fire, then do the LD test if you fail those are what you fire, OR roll a d6 on it. 1-3 it happens in the Daemons favor, or 4-6 it happens in the other army favor.


But in the spirit of the game? They see their allies as vile deamons, they are NOT going to sling their melta or plasma guns, they are not going to choose not to shot the combi plasma, as they just got SUPRISED by an illusion that they failed to see threw, and open up, with no holding back on the enemy with all they have (the enemy just so happens to be their allies)

To answer you question OP, i generally wait for the unit to choose a target and when they go to shoot i announce the changlings use of power, and then they never fail their leadership test, laugh at me, and shoot my soulgrinder to peaces :( (honsotly its only ever worked twice for me) but the best way i have found is when they announce they are picking a target, and they choose the weapons they are going to fire, then i do glamour and those are the weapons fired, i think that is the most fair way to run this rule based of both how the wording is specifically vague, and how the fluff interperts the way the power manifests.


Sorry if im a little offensive, i just find that the daemons are so far outclassed in most games and that Pink Horrors cost so much more to do so much less and a power that has a very little chance of going off is going to be "word lawyed" out of it by trying to determine who's rendition of "No holding Back" is to be used!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except the normal firing restrictions still apply, as "firing all weapons" doesnt override "troops can only fire one weapon" and "you cannot fire heavy weapons if you have moved" as it is not more specific than either of those.

Do they? I see pretty explicit instructions tell us to 'fire all weapons' not 'fire the weapons originally intended' or 'declares each member fires, if possible, at a friendly unit'. I see "fire all weapons", now, if one just fires one of two a models is holding, one hasn't fired all weapons - one's fired the maximum number normally permissible by the rules - not all.

Firing all weapons =\= firing the normal permissible amount.

Btw I can't find your first quote in the brb (second one is reasonably close to the actual text thou), I can find "Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon." pg 15, I'd hardly say being instructed to 'fire all weapons, no holding back' fits the criteria of 'normal'.

all i can find is the lack of ability to fire more than 1 weapon. it saying fire all still does not express permission.

no offense taken, its just raw i also TO a bit and we have some uber competitive jerks. for lack of a better word

Nah it's fine, the D.A. position I'm playing hinges on 'normally... fire a single weapon' from brb, and the express instruction not to fire just one, but 'all'. One isn't forbidden to ever fire more than one weapon, one just can't do that under normal conditions. Glamour is not a normal condition and tells one to fire 'all weapons' which most certainly would not be satisfied by only firing one's pistols and not one's missiles - by the same token, a combi weapon - naturally - would only have to fire one 'part' as that weapons has then been fired.
Under a permissive rules set I can see an argument for 'normally... fire a single weapon' telling us that there are situations in which firing more than one weapon is permissable.

Yet it does not specify that you can fire all weapons, ignoring restrictions on heavy / number you can fire normally. Or similar language - "fire all weapons" is not specific enough.

Nightrave - read the tenets of YMDC. Find you're breaking them with your rant.

Nos; the must in front of "fire all weapons" is pretty darn specific.

Although I will allow the concession that it is the "Unit" that "must fire all weapons", not any individual models, so what exactly that means we cannot know.

There are 2 interpretations to this very specific rule:

1) The unit as a whole must each fire 1 weapon.

2) Every model in the unit must fire every weapon they have regardless of movement or any other restrictions.

Personally; I will tie my hand behind my back and fire every gun I have including Heavies at my own unit. but that is because this is the most disadvantageous route. Also this makes units like Ork burnas not immune to the effects of Glamour(they only have template weapons and the Glamour rules do not state the unit being fired on is no longer "friendly", simply that you must fire on that unit).

That's fine if you want to view it that way Kel, However in no point does it allow "infantry" to fire more than 1 weapon as allotted, Note this may be used on vehicles and MC's in which the fire all weapons will apply as normal.

if a unit must fire ALL weapons (primary and 2ndary) as some seem to be suggesting, then does a unit with a missle launcher fire krak AND frag missles each?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet it does not specify that you can fire all weapons, ignoring restrictions on heavy / number you can fire normally. Or similar language - "fire all weapons" is not specific enough.

Nightrave - read the tenets of YMDC. Find you're breaking them with your rant.

"Must fire all", that must is pretty important there. Simply because if one has weapons unfiered by the unit after it's shooting, then one has not fired all weapons, and one's broken a rule.
If one does fire everything, the rulebook is quite happy, Glamour has told the unit it mus fire all, the rulebook agrees that normally they would fire one weapon each, but that wouldn't be all, so for this special circustance the restriction is lifted to satisfy the cirteria of 'must fire all weapons'.


@TK-421: No, as that would be firing a weapon (the launcher) twice.

it states normally each model may fire one weapon, it than gos on to say some others may fire more than one etc.

Loose text very loose,

With that said however there is never permission given to fire more than one weapon.