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I was wondering if there are any PDF on these worlds. Obviously, the Chapter themselves would serve as security detail but I thought I seen a picture or snippet somewhere suggesting that the Space Wolves controlled a PDF composed of Guardsmen. Or was that all pre-heresy when Chapters controlled IG regiments?

The basis of this question is that I'm pondering an Imperial Guard army that was under the SW's leadership pre-heresy.

Depends on the Chapter, and the world, but yes, some Chapters home-worlds do have a planetary defense force, although they don't contribute to the Imperial Guard as a general rule (They are not required to, their military service to the Imperium begins and ends with the Chapter they serve).

Few examples are the Crimson Fists on Rynn's World, and the Ultramarines across pretty much the entirety of Ultramar I believe, but certainly Calth and Macragge at least.

The Space Wolves however, do not, at least not now to my knowledge. The Chapters recruiting world, Fenris, is a death-world populated by tribesman who are ignorant to the outside galaxy, and believe the Astartes to be sorcerors, 'sky-warriors' and other assorted titles. As such, I don't believe the world actually fields a united PDF.

Having a PDF goes against how the fenrisians are presented in fluff, for them humanity exists on fenris and thats it.

As said in the less likely occurance that the chapter comes from a more civilised planet they may have a PDF.

Its a feral deathworld. No.

There are examples of IG from civilized worlds (pre-heresy DA, RG,...) but as stated already in this thread, Space wolves are from a feral world and recrut only marines.
In 40k, ultramarines are known to keep a PDF around. ( but these defend a whole system of worlds, ie Ultramar, not just 1 planet).


OTOH, space wolves are seen as rather friendly, so a IG recrutement world used to contribute Regiments who were fielded alongside SW back in the day could still
keep some ties to the SW. Having fought for a loyal world in the Heresy era may lead a IG regiment to honor their ancestors saviours by adapting to the style of them.

I'm pretty sure that Nocturne (home of the Salamanders) has actual IG regiments recruited from it , so would almost certainly have PDF also.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm pretty sure that Nocturne (home of the Salamanders) has actual IG regiments recruited from it , so would almost certainly have PDF also.

I don't think thats true, Nocturne has a relatively tiny population, so wouldn't be able to supply the IG with men as well as the Salamanders, due to the nature of the planet they may well have organised militia/PDF but to better deal with the time of trials, not for defence.

My Chapter, and the Ultramarines have PDF forces. Hell the Ultramarines even have a small Titan Legion. Crimson fists had one.
Space Wolves do not.
Blood Angels do.

Asherian Command wrote:My Chapter, and the Ultramarines have PDF forces. Hell the Ultramarines even have a small Titan Legion. Crimson fists had one.
Space Wolves do not.
Blood Angels do.

Whaaa? The Ultramarines have a Titan legio?

coolyo294 wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:My Chapter, and the Ultramarines have PDF forces. Hell the Ultramarines even have a small Titan Legion. Crimson fists had one.
Space Wolves do not.
Blood Angels do.

Whaaa? The Ultramarines have a Titan legio?

You Haven't Read the Battle of Macragge have you?

Nope

Nevermind.

Never minding.

Asherian Command is mistaken here, the Ultramarines certainly do not control a Titan Legion. And technically, unless an actual marine is the Planetary Governor of Maccrage (I'm not sure if Marneus Calgar's role as Chapter Master covers this role), the Ultramarines are not in direct control of the Ultramar PDF (though their loyalities are likely more closely tied to the Ultramarines than their governor).

While the PDF may or may not be controlled by the Ultramarines on the planets in Ultramar, the IG regiments recruited from there aren't under their control and the Titan Legions (property of the Mechanicus) are certainly not under the thumb of the Ultramarines.

Space Marine homeworlds do, almost always, maintain some kind of PDF; it's simply ridiculously dangerous not to.

Space Marine homeworlds are, however, exempt from providing recruits to the Imperial Guard, which is a significant economic benefit.

Ultramar is under the direct control of the Ultramarines; the worlds of Ultramar pay no tithes at all to the Imperium, maintain large PDF forces under Ultramarine control, and also hold large armies ready to join the Imperial Guard if need be. However, I'm quite certain the Ultramarines do not control a Titan Legion; the Adeptus Mechanicus would never allow that.

@BeRzErKeR: Ultramar is known to provide IG regiments even though they are exempt from tithes, such is there prosperity. What I am not sure of is if the PDF of recruitment worlds (varying from tribal militia to modern militaries) are legally under the direct control of Space Marines or are just not dumb enough to challenge their authority.

Recrutement worlds are independent ( planetary governor ), home worlds are property of the chapter ( chapter master doubles as planetary governor ).

SO any PDF on a Home-worlds has to follow orders of the CM.
PDF at other planets has to obey to their PG.
But those may accept to reduce their role to civilian affairs only like they do when IG is around in times of war.

Legally, all 3 are separate.
Until war demands joined HQ and the lead is given to the most senior commander, who may be rather a space marine or Guard officer than a PDF officer.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Space Marine homeworlds do, almost always, maintain some kind of PDF; it's simply ridiculously dangerous not to.

i highly doubt its 'almost always', a large proportion of recruitment worlds are feral, the population of these worlds have no idea space exists, let alone combined goverments to alow for a PDF

1hadhq wrote:Recrutement worlds are independent ( planetary governor ), home worlds are property of the chapter ( chapter master doubles as planetary governor ).

SO any PDF on a Home-worlds has to follow orders of the CM.
PDF at other planets has to obey to their PG.
But those may accept to reduce their role to civilian affairs only like they do when IG is around in times of war.

Legally, all 3 are separate.
Until war demands joined HQ and the lead is given to the most senior commander, who may be rather a space marine or Guard officer than a PDF officer.

I am not entirely sure that the Chapter Master fills the role of planetary governor, they'd have their hands full managing and co-ordinating their chapter.

IG regiments and PDF forces certainly obey the wishes of Chapters, but since the Horus Heresy I do not think they have any official authority to do so outside of their normal rank.

BluntmanDC wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Space Marine homeworlds do, almost always, maintain some kind of PDF; it's simply ridiculously dangerous not to.

i highly doubt its 'almost always', a large proportion of recruitment worlds are feral, the population of these worlds have no idea space exists, let alone combined goverments to alow for a PDF

Yes, Ultramar tends to be the exception for Space Marine recruitment world, not the rule.

The more civilised an SM world is the more likely it will be that they have a PDF. SW don't. The only real outpost of civilisation on Fenris is the Fang. Coupled with their distrust of foriegn forces in their space due to the imperial attack on Fenris.

Well for the crimson fists rynn's world isnt where they recruit. Those come from black water which is near buy. And they have a pdf. I damaged pdf but one none the less.

i belive each chapter that has a homeworld has a pdf to dend the planet

Well, the fang is more badass than a PDF regiment.

Space Wolves probably wouldn't trust anyone outside of their chapter to defend it... not after the last time.

I know Macragge has a PDF, I believe it's mentioned in stories about the 'Nids.

Scorpionov wrote:i belive each chapter that has a homeworld has a pdf to dend the planet

Why? they have space marines.

A space marine world with a population of less than a million, were the humans on the world have no idea what space is, or that ther are other human worlds exist, or that the IoM exists, or that aliens exist, or have the the required level of technology to know how a lasgun works, why would they have a PDF?

That is the majority of space marine worlds, the few civilised or advanced worlds like the Ultramar do have them, or the hive worlds that chapters like the Imperial Fists recruit from do.

Fenris doesnt need one, in the fluff somewhere possibly the dex it stated that during a brief spat some IG general fell out with the wolves and tried to invade fenris and his troops, the ones that didnt freeze or starve or get eaten by fenris' indiginous poulation of monsters, were raided constantly by the xenophobic tribes of native fenrisians, the wolves barely needed to get involved.

I would imagine the BA are much the same, baal is an incredibly hostile environment with an incredibly savage indiginous population not to mention the odd company of BA that are generally in attendance at one time or other plus the ancients that could be woken up if need be.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Scorpionov wrote:i belive each chapter that has a homeworld has a pdf to dend the planet

Why? they have space marines.

A space marine world with a population of less than a million, were the humans on the world have no idea what space is, or that ther are other human worlds exist, or that the IoM exists, or that aliens exist, or have the the required level of technology to know how a lasgun works, why would they have a PDF?

That is the majority of space marine worlds, the few civilised or advanced worlds like the Ultramar do have them, or the hive worlds that chapters like the Imperial Fists recruit from do.

Exactly! Feral SM recruiting worlds obviously won't have a pdf since even Imperium-ruled feral worlds don't have a pdf. But since some chapters recruit from civilised worlds and govern their recruiting world, they obviously field pdf units, at least as a law-enforcing force (try to imagine an ultramarine regultating traffic).
Ultramarines, since they are probably even richer than Big E at the top of his power, also field entire IG regiments (although they don't have to) and one of the most powerful warfleet posessed by a SM chapter. I guess a few other chapters do the same (to a lesser extent).

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Fenris doesnt need one, in the fluff somewhere possibly the dex it stated that during a brief spat some IG general fell out with the wolves and tried to invade fenris and his troops, the ones that didnt freeze or starve or get eaten by fenris' indiginous poulation of monsters, were raided constantly by the xenophobic tribes of native fenrisians, the wolves barely needed to get involved.

I would imagine the BA are much the same, baal is an incredibly hostile environment with an incredibly savage indiginous population not to mention the odd company of BA that are generally in attendance at one time or other plus the ancients that could be woken up if need be.

The only stable land on Fenris is the continent where the Fang is. The Fang is the only thing worth attacking. The Fang has a metric ton of guns and is pretty much indestructable.

purplefood wrote:

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Fenris doesnt need one, in the fluff somewhere possibly the dex it stated that during a brief spat some IG general fell out with the wolves and tried to invade fenris and his troops, the ones that didnt freeze or starve or get eaten by fenris' indiginous poulation of monsters, were raided constantly by the xenophobic tribes of native fenrisians, the wolves barely needed to get involved.

I would imagine the BA are much the same, baal is an incredibly hostile environment with an incredibly savage indiginous population not to mention the odd company of BA that are generally in attendance at one time or other plus the ancients that could be woken up if need be.

The only stable land on Fenris is the continent where the Fang is. The Fang is the only thing worth attacking. The Fang has a metric ton of guns and is pretty much indestructable.

Aye but isn't most of the rest of fenris stable for large portions of the year, only when the eliptical orbit brings it closer to the sun does the tectonic upheaval happen?