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In the DA Codex it says "Scouts: Note that no model may take a Turbo Boost move whilst using the Scouts Special Rule". This seems to be more of a reminder of a rule from 4th edition or some such garbage rather than a ruling from 5th Edition. In 5th Edition, it would seem that a bike may turboboost as part of a scouts move. If the DA rule specifically said "Ravenwing Bikers may not turboboost..." then it would make more sense, but this rule says no model. Since unit type rules regarding bikes are equally specific to "No model may turboboost" (since turboboosting only effects bikes), would the more recent rules win out?

Unfortunately, the FAQ for DA says you should use the codex rules over any other.

It's just as easy to read the sentence in the Ravenwing rules as "Note that no model [of the unit] may make a Turbo Boost move while using the Scouts Special Rule."

The general principle is that the most specific rule, or variant of a rule, applies, and in this case the Dark Angel rule with its additional specifier is the most specific rule for that unit.

one of the codex over rulebook scenarios

Specific over general, rather, as Solkan said. "Codex trumps rulebook" is sometimes untrue.

Units are made up of models. If no model may turboboost while scouting then the unit may not turboboost while scouting.

PLus it can be argued tht this is a balance thing - with their ability to take teleport homers they make a potent force to use with Deathwing Assault.

Ok, got it. Thanks everyone for their input.

Doesn't the errata/FAQ say you can turboboost in scout but must maintain a 12" distance from an enemy model?

The rulebook says that you can turboboost while making a scout move but must stay 12" away from the enemy. The BRB FAQ confirms this.

The DA codex says that ravenwing bikers may not turboboost while making a scout move.

When in doubt...

Rule book< Codex< FAQ Errata

Right?

If DA bikers can't turboboost after scout like regular codex marines, and they are a bike centered chapter, than that's further confirmation that the DA codex really is a pile. What a waste; DA are potentially awesome.

No, general< specific.

The general rule is that bikers can turbo during scout moves. Ravenwing is an exception, so they can't.

MisterMoon wrote:Rule book< Codex< FAQ Errata

Right?

Wrong.

Being able to boost while scouting is a general rule - all models with turboboost can do that.

The DA codex has a specific prohibition on Ravenwing bikers doing it.

It would take a DA codex FAQ which specifically referred to ravenwing to be specific enough to override that.

I'm sorry, but that is not what the FAQ says.

Q. There are a number of cases where things
with the same name have different rules or
characteristics in Codex Space Marines and
Codex: Dark Angels, such as the different
transport capacity for the Land Raider. There are
also a number of new items of equipment in the
Space Marines Codex that are not this one.
Which version of the rules should I use, the latest
version, or the one in Codex: Dark Angels?

A. Strictly, you should always use the rules from
your own Codex, and this is the default solution
you must use if you and your opponent can’t
come up with a better one (you’ll find that this
might be the case in tournaments, for example!).

Red highlight mine.

Edit: oh, crap. I just read the answer again, and know see that their talking about which codex, not which rule. You are right. I really should read these things more carefully, before responding. I'm in such a hurry to prove myself right I don't always think. Sorry.

Right. That FAQ answer is talking about when two different codices have wargear or rules with the same name, that work differently. And confirming that you always use the rule in your own codex in that case.

Unfortunately, as a Dark Angel player I have been stonewalled with this several times. On the downside we don't get the 3+ save for turbo boosting, but on the other we get Scoring Land Speeders! Muhahahaha

(Not that I use them of course i just thought that little bit of trivia was funny. Codex: While purchased together, attack bikes and Land Speeders purchased as part of the Ravenwing Attack Squadron do not need to be placed in cohesion with the rest of the unit. They act as their own individual Scoring Units)

But back on topic, the codex trumps the Rulebook, otherwise several pre-edition codices would not work in the newest edition. its also a drag when your codex names an item and gives it's effect in the book, rather than saying "See main rulebook". In that regard, had it said "see main rulebook" you would have more leeway with the rules.

Your first two paragraphs are correct. The first sentence of the third, however, is wrong.

You're correct in your conclusion (DA use old Smoke Launcher rules, for example); but not in the reason. The real hierarchy is specific trumps general. Sometimes a rulebook rule is more specific than a codex rule, and thus it still takes precedence. The DA smoke launchers rule is more specific than the rulebook smoke launchers rule; as it only applies to DA smoke launchers.

huh, Well that is good to know. I have always had it beat into my head"Codex>rulebook" since day one, so thanks for the correction.

No worries! A lot of people use that as a shorthand rule of thumb; but sometimes those shorthand expressions are inaccurate. Specific trumps general is bettter.

BTW, props for sticking to the DA. Nowadays I mostly play mine as Fallen using the chaos codex.

You can't turbo boost during your scout move, but the RAS has individual scoring attack bikes which can be useful. Technically by the codex the RAS speeder can score as well. Use these rules to your advantage if you are playing the Ravenwing.

IMO they should FAQ the speeder to NOT score and the bikes to be able to turbo boost during the scout move. But you play the codex you've got I guess.

Soon a new DA codex will be released and all of us loyal Dark Angels will be rewarded The Fallen Dark Angels who are using other codexes will be purged!
(not you Mannahnin, I mean people using their Deathwing as Wolfwing, and all the Vulcan-led DA armies I have seen since C:SM came out)

If it makes you feel better, your Speeders in Ravenwing Squads are scoring cause your codex says so and the FAQ doesn't say otherwise.

I for one do not feel better for that. It seems the only argument against turbo-boosting during scouts is: "at least you have scoring landspeeders"
While I will admit the rules are totally ambiguous, the court of public opinion seems to think that DA would be overpowered with it. In a game with DoA and first turn podded, combat-squaded Sternguard I hardly think that would be the case.
I just find it frustrating that the rules are so governed by sheer public opinion. How scoring speeders and Rites of Battle (just give it a once-over again) get a green light yet turbo-boosting scouts do not, all in the name of game balance, is beyond me.

Erratic_Assassin, you misunderstand. Public opinion has nothing to do with the rule. The rule is that GW made a specific restriction against Dark Angels turbo-boosting in the Scout move; sadly they changed their mind in the 5th edition rulebook (published later) for bikes in general, and have not errata'd the DA codex or changed their FAQ to let the DA bikes do it too.

The idea that the combo of Scout turboboost & teleport homers might be overpowered isn't actually a rules argument. Just people trying to make sense of why GW hasn't changed their ruling.

Unfortunately this kind of inconsistency crops up now and then because of the length of time over which codices get updated. GW doesn't want to edit and re-print older books every time they make a new book, but they still want to be free to change and improve stuff in newer books. As an example, it would suck for SM players if they never got 3+ I save Storm Shields because the older books didn't have them. Sometimes it hurts you (scout/turbo), sometimes it helps you (old-style smoke launchers, scoring speeders).

Erratic_Assassin wrote: It seems the only argument against turbo-boosting during scouts is: "at least you have scoring landspeeders"

No, the only argument against it is that your codex specifically prohibits it. What more argument do you need?

Specifically?

The DA Codex specifically says: "Note that no model may make a Turbo Boost move whilst using the Scouts Special Rule."
The Main Rule Book FAQ says: "Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move?: Yes they can now, (stay 12" away from enemies)"

Which is more specific?

The DA, because it applies only to DA bikes.

Yes, nice circular logic. The more specific one applies and since the DA is applied; therefore the DA is more specific!

Erratic_Assassin wrote:Yes, nice circular logic. The more specific one applies and since the DA is applied; therefore the DA is more specific!

It's not circular object at all, you're just being obtuse.

The BRB FAQ refers to ALL bikes in the game, which is a general statement.

The DA Codex refers ONLY to Ravenwing Bikers, which is a specific statement.

As the rules tell us that Specific>General, Ravenwing bikers can not Turbo while making a Scout move.

Erratic_Assassin: It seems the only argument against turbo-boosting during scouts is: "at least you have scoring landspeeders"

Mannahin: Erratic_Assassin, you misunderstand... (Something about GW doesn't want to edit) ...Sometimes it hurts you (scout/turbo), sometimes it helps you (old-style smoke launchers, scoring speeders).

Just had to point that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is just the thing: are they referring just to Ravenwing Bikers? It seems to me that it is a 4th ed rules remider given the "note that" and "no model".
Sure it is totally a judgment call.
I am just being thickheaded here to drive my point home: It is a reasonable argument, why are we hurting ourselves? A DA would not think twice about saying Belial or Sammael have Rites of Battle. Why not argue for a non-game breaking rule that makes DA more fun?

Point what out? That people feel sympathy for you, and try to bring up a silver lining?

Again, the argument or reasoning behind the ruling has nothing whatsoever to do with scoring landspeeders or old-style smoke launchers. Those are just mentioned by people as an attempt to salve your hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Erratic_Assassin wrote:I am just being thickheaded here to drive my point home: It is a reasonable argument, why are we hurting ourselves? A DA would not think twice about saying Belial or Sammael have Rites of Battle. Why not argue for a non-game breaking rule that makes DA more fun?

Because the rules say otherwise, and even where there is ambiguity, the rule of thumb is to err on the side of the less-powerful interpretation. Bear in mind that I have a Dark Angels army.