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So, World War Two. Germans were the bad guys, and the Allies were the good guys.

Major crux of the war was Britain declaring war on Germany, when it would appear Mr Hitler thought Britain would either sit on the fence, or join him...

So here comes the hypothetical....what if Britain had joined with Germany? Now rather than go into stuff like Mosley etc being an alternate Prime Minister, I am more looking for comments based on how the British Government was at the time.

I won't make any comments right now, as my knowledge of the ins and outs of this particular event are shockingly poor, and whilst I don't mind my comments being shot down in flames, I'd at least like to give my threads a fighting chance. So off you go! Would it have affected the outcome of the war? What sort of world might we live in post-war....

The first question would be, would Germany have invaded France? If they didn't, where would they have assaulted? Would they have attacked the USSR earlier?

In a war where both Germany and the USSR are pitting the entirety of their nations against each other, who would have won? Would Japan have assaulted the USSR in the east? Would Japan have ever attacked the US?

Well, the USSR thing gets a bit more involved, when you consider the then extent of the British Empire. Certainly naval actions up through the North Sea become a possibility with Britain as an allly. Plus with Afghanistan and India then still part of the Empire, that's another way in. Wouldn't necessarily change the outcome of marching on Moscow (you die, they burn stuff but ultimately survive) but it does stack things slightly more in favour of Russia not winning. I think.

Plus, Britain getting into bed with Germany....where would that leave the USA?

Amaya wrote:The first question would be, would Germany have invaded France? If they didn't, where would they have assaulted? Would they have attacked the USSR earlier?

In a war where both Germany and the USSR are pitting the entirety of their nations against each other, who would have won? Would Japan have assaulted the USSR in the east? Would Japan have ever attacked the US?

The second part of your questioning is suspiciously similar to red alert especially the third game.

To the OP though, Europe would have fell with little challenge if the UK sided with the axis and I think several of the commonwealth countries would have joined if the UK did, probably not Australia though.

The result?

Without the problem of the Aliies, Hitler wouldn't need to take command of his forces leaving his competent generals in charge.

Western Europe would be unassailable. America wouldn't want to intervene and would be very isolationist.

Eastern Europe and the Balkans would have been scoured clean of the slavs and bolsheviks.

North Africa would be an Axis stronghold as would the entire middle east leading to asia minor.

Japan would still pursue its expansionist aims and war with America would be inevitable.

Post War?

Its hard to tell. I assume that there would be some resistance to German/fascist rule in the UK but since people are downright spiteful, nasty, stupid and predictable the brits would carry on as much as they had, throwing the occasional Roman salute around where needed.

'We don't like that Hitler, but he gets the train to run on time and those work shy jews 'aint a problem any more guv'nor'.
'I wish that fat old tosser Churchill would stop ruining things cor blimey'

Etc.

I would expect a massive power struggles in the Nazi hierarchy when Hitler popped his clogs leading to internal struggles and the inevitable weakening of power.

In America you would expect to see a rise in support for the far right along with extreme xenophobia/rascism.

I suppose that would depend on weather Japan attacks America or not.

EDIT: DAMN I type way to slow...That answer was for Mr. Mystery's question concerning US involvement.

Interesting, becuase Britain could just as easily have declared war on the USSR for invading Poland, and (officially) viewed Germany as stepping in to defend their interests. Certainly the USSR would be in a very uncomfortable position, and Operation Barbarossa or an equivalent would have been launched much quicker, and likely with better results.

The conflict between the US and Japan could still be a seperate issue, but with Britain as an ally Germany certainly wouldn't support Japan if they chose to invade by the way of Singapore, and would likely be forced to concentrate their efforts in China.

I wonder if the Holocaust would have been avoided, would the original plan to expel Jews to Madagascar have been carried out?

Mr Mystery wrote:Plus, Britain getting into bed with Germany....where would that leave the USA?

Exactly where it was. What a silly question.

When did the british ally with germany though? if it was prior to Einstein leaving Europe then the face of the planet may be very, very different.

Its hard to tell. I assume that there would be some resistance to German/fascist rule in the UK but since people are downright spiteful, nasty, stupid and predictable the brits would carry on as much as they had, throwing the occasional Roman salute around where needed.

'We don't like that Hitler, but he gets the train to run on time and those work shy jews 'aint a problem any more guv'nor'.
'I wish that fat old tosser Churchill would stop ruining things cor blimey'

You do realise that Britian hasn't lost the war or been invaded, it's just joined on the other side. And France would likely follow which very possibly means no war at all, although conflict with the USSR would be all but certain. Either way, this does not mean Britian would be forced to adopt fascist ideals, though they would likely become more prevalent in the political circles soon enough.

In America you would expect to see a rise in support for the far right along with extreme xenophobia/rascism.

You need the Germans to win WWII for that?

Then the Postage stamp would be the world's most popular mustache.

Also, if the Hindenburg had landed safely, then the Nazis would have gotten nukes before us.

France would have surrendered even quicker, probably.

I'd imagine that if the UK/Commonwealth and Germany went in together (along with Italy and other associated small fish) and Japan, most of Western Europe would have been quickly brought into line. Ireland may well have been invaded (again) and brought under Axis control.

After this, Russia would probably have been next on the hit list, along with China (which would have been a prime target for the Japanese).

Though Russia may have sided with the Axis powers if the UK had joined the Germans... though Hitler may have still pulled the ol' "treaty" and then attack later trick, since his dislike of the Russian people is well known.

Not sure what would have happened regards the final solution - the inclusion of the UK may well have slowed it, or lead it to be done more secretly by Germany before being introduced elsewhere.

However, Western Europe would certainly have been brought under Axis control a lot quicker and stayed under their control.

I also think that with the combined Commonwealth/German/Italian army, Russia would have been hard pressed to survive if attacked.

With a link to the Pacific that the pacification of Russia would have brought, America may well have become a target for direct invasion.

corpsesarefun wrote:When did the british ally with germany though? if it was prior to Einstein leaving Europe then the face of the planet may be very, very different.

Not really, Einstien would likely have left regardless of whether Britain allied or not. Indeed, going to the US may have become even more attractive.

Well if Lord Halifax had pressed his case in the aftermath of Chamberlain's downfall and had become Prime Minister then possibly what you are suggesting could have happened. He had been an architect of the policy of appeasement that the British and French had followed and may have adopted a more lenient tone towards Hitler. However there is also the fact that he issued the guarantee to Poland securing its sovereignty which says that he may have adopted a policy parallel with Churchill's. Even if he had chosen to follow his earlier policies I would doubt that they would have ran to the extent of siding with the Nazi's. Britain's response would have resembled the American opposition to Nazism with them backing anti-nazi forces. Although as soon as France was invaded then Blam Britain would declare war. However if Britain had (through Dr Who or some other fantasy) sided with the Nazi's then the German invasion of France may not have been a definite as Britain and France had a strong alliance at the time and with a Nazi friendly Britain France would probably have been coerced into making nice with Hitler.

So really in 1939 it was incredibly unlikely that the political climate in Britain would have been to support the Nazi's. It was a question of when not if, and if Poland had not been secured then eventually another of Hitler's conquests would have sparked the conflict.

A better turning point is the launching of Operation Barbarossa the Nazi invasion of Russia. If Hitler had instead concentrated on Sealion then possibly England would have fallen while Stalin was still a tentative Ally to Germany. Although that may have brought the USA into the war earlier and opened up another can of worms. God isn't alternative history hard?

I would recommend Fatherland by Robert Harris if you want an incredibly detailed and plausible alternate end of the Second World War. Its got an alternate Cold War and everything

Worth noting that Britain wasn't 100% opposed to facism at the time. Look up the British Union of Facists for more info. The support kind of was there, but never fully took off. An alliance with Germany, that almost certainly would have changed things.

For the sake of argument, the hypothetical UK/German allliance would have happened in place of the declaration of war, at the same time.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:When did the british ally with germany though? if it was prior to Einstein leaving Europe then the face of the planet may be very, very different.

Not really, Einstien would likely have left regardless of whether Britain allied or not. Indeed, going to the US may have become even more attractive.

Yeah but without the allies in europe would he have been able to leave.

Urghh I made all that comment before anyone else posted so sorry it doesn't follow the discussion

SilverMK2 wrote:France would have surrendered even quicker, probably.

Germany has not invaded yet, and would have little reason to. (No European Power is going to go to war with the rest of Europe)

Though Russia may have sided with the Axis powers if the UK had joined the Germans... though Hitler may have still pulled the ol' "treaty" and then attack later trick, since his dislike of the Russian people is well known.

With the UK at his back Hitler would have had little need for a Russian ally. Indeedm if Britain announced their support for Germany prior to or even during the invasion of Poland Hitler may have quickly siezed on that and launched an attack into Russia without hesitation.

With a link to the Pacific that the pacification of Russia would have brought, America may well have become a target for direct invasion.

Unlikely, at least not in Hitle's lifetime. Although he did always refer to the Americans as the mongrel race of the world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:When did the british ally with germany though? if it was prior to Einstein leaving Europe then the face of the planet may be very, very different.

Not really, Einstien would likely have left regardless of whether Britain allied or not. Indeed, going to the US may have become even more attractive.

Yeah but without the allies in europe would he have been able to leave.

Yes, it would likely be easier with no war occurring.

Also worth noting that anti-semitism in general was pretty high in the UK as anywhere else in Europe, so we can't necessarily rule out the holocaust in this one.

Mr Mystery wrote:Also worth noting that anti-semitism in general was pretty high in the UK as anywhere else in Europe, so we can't necessarily rule out the holocaust in this one.

It would be a mind-numbing process to execute the Final Solution in a time of peace, even in heavily anti-semitic areas. More likely an expulsion or European Jews would be demanded, and likely occur.

SilverMK2 wrote:
Though Russia may have sided with the Axis powers if the UK had joined the Germans... though Hitler may have still pulled the ol' "treaty" and then attack later trick, since his dislike of the Russian people is well known.

Well, Stalin and Russia both decided to carve Poland up.

Hitler never had any intention of letting the USSR live.

Also, Stalin refused to believe that Hitler would invade right up until he heard that jackboots were coming down on the motherlands soil.

Emperors Faithful wrote:No European Power is going to go to war with the rest of Europe

Well, except Germany... twice

With the UK at his back Hitler would have had little need for a Russian ally. Indeedm if Britain announced their support for Germany prior to or even during the invasion of Poland Hitler may have quickly siezed on that and launched an attack into Russia without hesitation.

Of course, though it depends exactly what point in the pre-war timeline all these alliances are declared (as well as how each nation reacted to them), which is the problem with alternate histories

Unlikely, at least not in Hitle's lifetime. Although he did always refer to the Americans as the mongrel race of the world.

I was not giving a timeline - I was just saying that America would have been a potiential target of the Axis forces at some point (as you pointed out, Hitler was not their biggest fan). Also, with pretty much the entire Middle East, the Russian oilfields, etc all under Axis control, America would have been very unhappy.

What was china like in the 1930's? was there already communist support in the country at that point?

If so its possible that Russia may have ran to the east for support if Hitler had been confident enough (due to british support) to declare war on Russia?

In which case what would the Chinese have done? supposing that the Japanese had still sided with the axis would the Chinese ally with the Russians or ignore them to worry about their own safety.

Also what would the American response to pearl harbour be?

There was little love between the UK and the USSR as well. It had barely been 20 years since the civil war between the Reds and the (Western backed) Whites.

corpsesarefun wrote:In which case what would the Chinese have done? supposing that the Japanese had still sided with the axis would the Chinese ally with the Russians or ignore them to worry about their own safety.

China had actually already been invaded before the start of WWII (in 1931) by Japan, who held cities in the East of China. China sapped a lot of the Japanese army in terms of men and materials.

Throughout WWII (and the period before in fact), various parties were vying for control, including the commies and spent almost as much time fighting each other as the Japanese.

SilverMK2 wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:In which case what would the Chinese have done? supposing that the Japanese had still sided with the axis would the Chinese ally with the Russians or ignore them to worry about their own safety.

China had actually already been invaded before the start of WWII (in 1931) by Japan, who held cities in the East of China. China sapped a lot of the Japanese army in terms of men and materials.

Throughout WWII (and the period before in fact), various parties were vying for control, including the commies and spent almost as much time fighting each other as the Japanese.

In that case my question changes a little, would Russia have aided the Chinese to gain an ally?

corpsesarefun wrote:In that case my question changes a little, would Russia have aided the Chinese to gain an ally?

Unlikely, having China as an ally would have done little to help them from a European based invasion. Although, having lost lands in Manchuria already to Japan, I do think there was already some support there for the Chinese.

corpsesarefun wrote:What was china like in the 1930's? was there already communist support in the country at that point?

If so its possible that Russia may have ran to the east for support if Hitler had been confident enough (due to british support) to declare war on Russia?

In which case what would the Chinese have done? supposing that the Japanese had still sided with the axis would the Chinese ally with the Russians or ignore them to worry about their own safety.

Also what would the American response to pearl harbour be?

China had the Kuomintang led by Chiang Kai-Shek and the communists, ultimately led by nic young man called Mao Zedong. China would not be a communist state if the West (America) had given more support to Shek after the war (and If Kai shek wasn't a prick).

I digress.

Communists and the Democratic Kuomintang sided with each other against Japanese occupation and imperialist rule.

Japan had plans to bring up to 5million citizens into Manchuria, Indeed Russia wanted the territory as well, with 200,000 emigrees flooding into the area (Harbin).

China was between a rock and a hard place, I would expect that Russia China or whoever would decide that the Chinese needed to be subdued.

China was in no state to aid or side anyone on its own terms.

America would react to pearl harbour in exactly the same way, except that a pacific war would probably be more attritional.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:No European Power is going to go to war with the rest of Europe

Well, except Germany... twice

World War 1 they had half of Europe on their side.

World War 2 they made half of Europe their side.

If, for example, France and Britian had threatened war over the Czech or German troops crossing intothe Rhineland Germany would have had no option but to back down.

Of course, though it depends exactly what point in the pre-war timeline all these alliances are declared (as well as how each nation reacted to them), which is the problem with alternate histories

I believe OP stated in a later post that Britians declaration of War (at the invasion of Poland) was replaced by a declaration of support/alliance.

I was not giving a timeline - I was just saying that America would have been a potiential target of the Axis forces at some point (as you pointed out, Hitler was not their biggest fan). Also, with pretty much the entire Middle East, the Russian oilfields, etc all under Axis control, America would have been very unhappy.

In this case their isolationist policy would have been greatly fortified, and might suit them.

I think we'd have no communism as the nazis and imperialists would crush the USSR. Also japan jerry and tommy would have INVADED and shown the us what it's like to have been in war.