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I was wondering how unit targeting works with JOTWW. After the Rune Priest fires, which units can he charge? I think it's broken enough already, so I think a fair way to go would be to have the SW player select one unit, and have the line go over at least one model in the unit, or use the template weapon rules.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of
sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of
sight (i.e., impassible terrain)?
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World
Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must
have line of sight to the first model that the
power affects – in effect he is treated as the target
model; the power just happens to hit everybody
else on its way through!

The first model the line intersects is the target model; therefore that is the target unit.

Alright! Thanks for the quick answer, this clears things up.

To further extrapolate this topic, does this mean that the 'target' unit may not be locked in CC, but if the line happens to cross across models that *are* locked in CC they are still affected by the power?

That would be correct, yes.

tetrisphreak wrote:To further extrapolate this topic, does this mean that the 'target' unit may not be locked in CC, but if the line happens to cross across models that *are* locked in CC they are still affected by the power?

Kommissar Kel wrote:That would be correct, yes.

I disagree with that assessment.

The rules for shooting into CC say:

"Likewise, while especially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this not permitted. The events of close combat move too quickly and the warriors themselves will be understandably hesitant about firing on their comrades."


These rules mention nothing about 'targeting' the unit, just that you cannot fire on units locked in CC.

Jaws of the World Wolf is a psychic shooting attack and can therefore not be used on models in CC.

Yak: That would cause any Close combats within the 24" line to break the game; you would have a line that is drawn towards a target and must extend to 24", effecting every model of the indicated types, that would be effectively broken by intervening Close combats.

We already know by the Jaws rules that friendly model caught in the line could be lost to the power, but suddenly the power stops because those same models are fighting enemies?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Yak: That would cause any Close combats within the 24" line to break the game; you would have a line that is drawn towards a target and must extend to 24", effecting every model of the indicated types, that would be effectively broken by intervening Close combats.

We already know by the Jaws rules that friendly model caught in the line could be lost to the power, but suddenly the power stops because those same models are fighting enemies?

It is exactly the same as using a template weapon near a close combat. You can still 'target' a unit that's near a CC but if the template would end up covering any models actually in the CC then you can't place it there. If there is no way to draw a 24" line without crossing one model in combat then the power cannot be used...simple as that!

I think you have this one wrong Yak....As long as the Rune Priest has line of sight and the first targeted model hit is not engaged in HTH then the line goes 24 inches and whatever is hit, friend or foe, has to take the Initative Test. Nothing stops the line.

Bikeninja wrote:I think you have this one wrong Yak....As long as the Rune Priest has line of sight and the first targeted model hit is not engaged in HTH then the line goes 24 inches and whatever is hit, friend or foe, has to take the Initative Test. Nothing stops the line.

I'm not talking about 'stopping' the line, I'm saying the line cannot be drawn over a model locked in combat. This is not something I'm just 'wrong' on, this is a logical argument supported by the rules:

P1: JotWW is a psychic shooting attack (SW codex page 37).
P2: Psychic Shooting Attacks follow the rules for shooting (rulebook page 50).
P3: One of the rules for shooting is that models may not fire into close combat (rulebook page 40).

C1: Therefore, JotWW may not be used on models locked in combat.


Again, this is no different then a template weapon which requires a 'target' but which can also be placed over other units as well. JotWW is a (psychic) shooting attack and therefore it cannot affect models locked in combat!

Hell, the power is already crazy-amazing, I have no idea why you would want to have it suddenly ignore the rules and allow players to target models in close combat with it!

Eben if there was a valid reason for using JOTWW on models in CC, there's the excuse that GW has screwed up enough on this one, and SW players have already sniped Grotsnik enough.

I think of it as ordnance fire scatter result, if its area ends over 2 or more units engaged in CC, this last fact matters not, hitting each and every model under the template.

Or perhaps if I shoot a target not engaged with my battle cannon and it scatters and hits a couple squads in CC counts as if I missed that shot?

yakface wrote:

Bikeninja wrote:I think you have this one wrong Yak....As long as the Rune Priest has line of sight and the first targeted model hit is not engaged in HTH then the line goes 24 inches and whatever is hit, friend or foe, has to take the Initative Test. Nothing stops the line.

I'm not talking about 'stopping' the line, I'm saying the line cannot be drawn over a model locked in combat. This is not something I'm just 'wrong' on, this is a logical argument supported by the rules:

P1: JotWW is a psychic shooting attack (SW codex page 37).
P2: Psychic Shooting Attacks follow the rules for shooting (rulebook page 50).
P3: One of the rules for shooting is that models may not fire into close combat (rulebook page 40).

C1: Therefore, JotWW may not be used on models locked in combat.


Again, this is no different then a template weapon which requires a 'target' but which can also be placed over other units as well. JotWW is a (psychic) shooting attack and therefore it cannot affect models locked in combat!

Hell, the power is already crazy-amazing, I have no idea why you would want to have it suddenly ignore the rules and allow players to target models in close combat with it!

I would have to disagree.

While it is true that you cannot fire at a unit locked in cc, this actually only applies to the unit you are targeting:

"A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target,..." (p.16)

In the case of Jaws, this would apply only to the first unit with a model which Jaws hits (or goes through). That unit cannot be locked in cc. Any unit that is touched afterwards is beyond the scope of the BRB, as the BRB doesn't really account for multiple units that is hit from a shooting attack.

And while Jaws is similar to a temp weapon, it is not a temp weapon and does not follow the rules for temp weapons. You can no more use the rules for temp weapons as a rule for Jaws as you can use the same rules for meltaguns in place of meltabombs (i.e. meltabombs aren't AP1).

Ah, so JAWS cant target a single model in CC? hmm Ive seen some players playin that wrong.

I think Yak's logic holds fine.

Jaws is defined as a Psychic Shooting Attack.

The prohibition on page 40 says you may not fire into close combats; not merely that you cannot target an enemy unit in close combat. If you draw the line over an assault, you are shooting into close combat.

Jy2, by your logic, you could use flamers to target an enemy unit directly in front of or behind a close combat and hit units in the close combat, since they are not being targeted. But this is not allowed, as the rules forbid shooting into close combat completely, not just targeting units in close combat.

ENKHANNA wrote:I think of it as ordnance fire scatter result, if its area ends over 2 or more units engaged in CC, this last fact matters not, hitting each and every model under the template.

Not at all. Page 40 forbids you to deliberately fire into combat, but specifically allows SCATTER (which is not under your control) to put a blast marker over models in an assault.

So Jaws can't hit your own models either, then? Because that's where following the "normal" line of reasoning gets you.

No, you cannot shoot your own units either.

You can scatter onto them, if the shots scatter. . .same as CC.

... this is why i love vibro cannons ... i can shoot my own people.

Kommissar Kel wrote:We already know by the Jaws rules that friendly model caught in the line could be lost to the power, but suddenly the power stops because those same models are fighting enemies?

Actually, that can't be correct if you follow Yak's line of reasoning. If the line would be drawn over your own models, you could not use the power because you can't shoot or target your own models.

Where it states that you can lose your own models to JotWW is completely wrong if you follow Yak's line of reasoning.

It could never happen.

imweasel wrote:
Where it states that you can lose your own models to JotWW . . .

Where is this? I missed it.

kirsanth wrote:

imweasel wrote:
Where it states that you can lose your own models to JotWW . . .

Where is this? I missed it.

" in effect he is treated as the target
model; the power just happens to hit everybody
else on its way through! "

The faq answer?

That does not say you can lose your own models, or even imply it.

Doesnt it say in the codex that the line stops if it hits a friendly model?

Mannahnin wrote:
Jy2, by your logic, you could use flamers to target an enemy unit directly in front of or behind a close combat and hit units in the close combat, since they are not being targeted.

No you can't, because the rules for temp weapons explicitly forbid the temp marker from touching any friendly model. That is a rule specifically for templates and blast markers (before scatter). Jaws is neither.

Mannahnin wrote:But this is not allowed, as the rules forbid shooting into close combat completely, not just targeting units in close combat.

The difference here is that the rules forbid targeting a unit locked in combat. If you look at p.15 (under Disallowed Shooting), that is actually saying that you cannot shoot if you are the unit that is locked in close combat.

kirsanth wrote:That does not say you can lose your own models, or even imply it.

So you are saying that if your own model is hit (assuming you can hit your own models), it's somehow immune to the power? Cause you certainly are hit by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

italiaplaya wrote:Doesnt it say in the codex that the line stops if it hits a friendly model?

Does it? If so, then this argument is mute.

italiaplaya wrote:Doesnt it say in the codex that the line stops if it hits a friendly model?

No. Actually, all it really says is that "this line may pass through terrain."

What it can't do (at least the way I play it) is that it can't pass through vehicles, though this is up for intepretation as well.

imweasel wrote:

kirsanth wrote:That does not say you can lose your own models, or even imply it.

So you are saying that if your own model is hit (assuming you can hit your own models), it's somehow immune to the power? Cause you certainly are hit by it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

italiaplaya wrote:Doesnt it say in the codex that the line stops if it hits a friendly model?

Does it? If so, then this argument is mute.

Nope, Nothing in the rule allows you to hit Friendly Models or even mentions friendly models.

So you can't let the line pass over a unit in cc or your own models.

Ever. However, I thought somewhere it did state what happens to your own models if they are in the line of the JotWW. Perhaps I am mistaken.

This is the way Jaws should be played:

1) You must target a legal unit (model), which according to the FAQ is the first legal model Jaws hits. You cannot target your own unit (model). You cannot target a unit (model) locked in cc. You must have LOS to the model you are targeting.

2) If you should satisfy #1, any other unit behind the "targeted" unit which is hit is fair game, be it your own models or your opponents (or even if they are locked in cc).

Jaws can pass over vehicles. There's no prohibition on it crossing vehicles (they're just unaffected). The FAQ answer regarding Artillery units also makes this clear.

jy2 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:But this is not allowed, as the rules forbid shooting into close combat completely, not just targeting units in close combat.

The difference here is that the rules forbid targeting a unit locked in combat. If you look at p.15 (under Disallowed Shooting), that is actually saying that you cannot shoot if you are the unit that is locked in close combat.

Sure, and on page 40 it goes into more detail, saying:

Models belonging to units locked in combat may not fire weapons in the Shooting phase. Their attention is completely taken by the swirling melee. Likewise, while especially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted.

This is a blanket prohibition on shooting into combat at all. Regardless of which unit is actually being targeted.