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jy2 wrote:This is the way Jaws should be played:

1) You must target a legal unit (model), which according to the FAQ is the first legal model Jaws hits. You cannot target your own unit (model). You cannot target a unit (model) locked in cc. You must have LOS to the model you are targeting.

2) If you should satisfy #1, any other unit behind the "targeted" unit which is hit is fair game, be it your own models or your opponents (or even if they are locked in cc).

I like it. Thats how it should be haha

That is not what the rules state, but folks are welcome to appreciate the novel approach.



Also, it is not a "mute" point.

A moot point, perhaps, if you want to debate the minutiae. . . .

jy2 wrote:This is the way Jaws should be played:

1) You must target a legal unit (model), which according to the FAQ is the first legal model Jaws hits. You cannot target your own unit (model). You cannot target a unit (model) locked in cc. You must have LOS to the model you are targeting.

2) If you should satisfy #1, any other unit behind the "targeted" unit which is hit is fair game, be it your own models or your opponents (or even if they are locked in cc).

That may be how you *think* Jaws should be played but that is *NOT* how the rules tell us to play.

I posted a logical argument supported by valid premises and nothing you've pointed out has changed that argument.

Page 40 prohibits shooting into close combat, period. This covers BOTH targeting a unit locked in combat and crucially it also covers even firing at models locked in combat at all (regardless of whether you target them or not).

This is why you cannot place a flamer template over models locked in combat EVEN IF you are targeting a unit not locked in combat with the template weapon.

imweasel wrote:So you can't let the line pass over a unit in cc or your own models.

Ever. However, I thought somewhere it did state what happens to your own models if they are in the line of the JotWW. Perhaps I am mistaken.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a blanket restriction against firing against your own models like there is firing into close combat. So yes, while you can't 'target' your own units (i.e. the first model hit by Jaws), I think its probably fine to have Jaws cross over your own models as long as they're not locked in combat.

I could be wrong...perhaps there is some blanket restriction against firing at your own models in the shooting rules that I've missed, but if there isn't (as I don't think there is), then yes, you could potentially 'Jaws' your own models (as long as they're not locked in combat).

I thought there was something in the rules that prevented you from shooting your own units that did not involve scatter.

I could be mistaken there.

Mannahnin wrote:

This is a blanket prohibition on shooting into combat at all. Regardless of which unit is actually being targeted.

Ant yet, we have the eldar vibro cannon that works in much the same way as JOTWW (straight line, units beneath take damage) that do affect units locked in CC. However this could also be an agument against JOTWW affecting cc units, since the vibro cannon has a paragraf in the rule description allowing it (making an exeption to the BRB) while JOTWW has no such clarifications or exeptions to the main rules.

Fayric wrote:
Ant yet, we have the eldar vibro cannon that works in much the same way as JOTWW (straight line, units beneath take damage) that do affect units locked in CC. However this could also be an agument against JOTWW affecting cc units, since the vibro cannon has a paragraf in the rule description allowing it (making an exeption to the BRB) while JOTWW has no such clarifications or exeptions to the main rules.

That would seem to support the fact you can't let JotWW hit a model in a unit that is locked in cc.

Exactly. The Vibrocannon has a specific exception to the general rule.

I would have figured that the "everybody else" line in the FAQ answer was pretty clear that it would hit...well, EVERYBODY ELSE.

It does hit everybody else.....after you have selected your legal target.

"Everybody else" = everybody else who is legally affected.

It can't be everybody else on the line, particularly since some units cannot be affected.

Kevin949 wrote:I would have figured that the "everybody else" line in the FAQ answer was pretty clear that it would hit...well, EVERYBODY ELSE.

Most shooting can only affect a single unit.

Steelmage99 wrote:It does hit everybody else.....after you have selected your legal target.

Indeed.

Mannahnin wrote:"Everybody else" = everybody else who is legally affected.

It can't be everybody else on the line, particularly since some units cannot be affected.

Oh? And why not? Yes I've read the thread but nothing states concretely why it can't. Sure yakface says that units in CC can't be shot at, but it merely says they can't be targeted. Units can still be "affected" by psychic abilities, they just cannot be the target of any shooting but that doesn't mean they can't get affected by something.

kirsanth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:I would have figured that the "everybody else" line in the FAQ answer was pretty clear that it would hit...well, EVERYBODY ELSE.

Most shooting can only affect a single unit.

Yes, most shooting does. Except for the shooting that does not.

Kevin949 wrote:Yes, most shooting does. Except for the shooting that does not.

Which would perfectly explain the need to allow "everybody else" to need to be allowed to be hit. No reason to assume it means illegal targets.

kirsanth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Yes, most shooting does. Except for the shooting that does not.

Which would perfectly explain the need to allow "everybody else" to need to be allowed to be hit. No reason to assume it means illegal targets.

But what is constituted as "illegal targets" in this instance? Considering you are targeting only one unit and that one has to be a legal target per normal shooting rules. Nothing else is a "targeted unit", it is simply caught in the aftermath of the power.

Put plainly, you follow the normal rules for shooting at your designated target that is up to 24" inches away. If that unit is 23" or less away you simply draw a second line past them for the remainder of the powers range and everything it touches is simply affected by the power but not a target of it. I believe people are getting to granular with this and not taking a higher level view.

It would be much more polite for you to read my posts before arguing with them.

Targeting has nothing to do with it.

Check out page 40. You are forbidden to shoot at any unit in HtH. You are not merely forbidden from targeting them. This inescapably means that you can't draw a line which would cross over a model in HtH.

In my case, I am sidestepping the details because I cannot look up the details at the moment--I shall soon enough.

However, what I was trying to point out is that the "everybody else" does not itself allow friendly units to be hit.
Shooting rules only allow one unit to be hit.

More specific exceptions allow multiple units to be hit, and this is very much one of those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Check out page 40. You are forbidden to shoot at any unit in HtH. You are not merely forbidden from targeting them. This inescapably means that you can't draw a line which would cross over a model in HtH.

I think many (some?) are questioning if there is a prohibition from shooting friendly units that are not targeted and not in CC.

Kevin949 wrote:

Oh? And why not? Yes I've read the thread but nothing states concretely why it can't. Sure yakface says that units in CC can't be shot at, but it merely says they can't be targeted. Units can still be "affected" by psychic abilities, they just cannot be the target of any shooting but that doesn't mean they can't get affected by something.

kirsanth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:I would have figured that the "everybody else" line in the FAQ answer was pretty clear that it would hit...well, EVERYBODY ELSE.

Most shooting can only affect a single unit.

Yes, most shooting does. Except for the shooting that does not.

What? I've pointed it out multiple times already! Page 40 clearly restricts all firing into CC, with 'targeting' not being part of the equation. And again, look at the examples given on page 40...Flamers are a weapon that 'targets' a unit AND can affect other (non-target) models. But because of the blanket restriction on firing into CC you are not willing allowed to place a flamer template over models in CC, regardless of whether the target is 'legal' or not.

Again, my argument:

P1: JotWW is a psychic shooting attack (SW codex page 37).
P2: Psychic Shooting Attacks follow the rules for shooting (rulebook page 50).
P3: One of the rules for shooting is that models may not fire into close combat (rulebook page 40).

C1: Therefore, JotWW may not be used on models locked in combat.

Has yet to be refuted. Until you can point out where the flaw in that logic lays, the rules stand as written.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:I think many are questioning if there is a prohibition from shooting friendly units that are not targeted and not in CC.

YES, that's what page 40 is. It says you cannot fire into CC, period.

And then the examples given are both blast and template weapons, which target specific units but can ALSO be used to hit models in units they aren't targeting (just like JotWW does!).

The only way I can possibly see refuting Yakface's argument is to somehow show that you aren't 'firing upon' the subsequent units that are engaged in close combat.

Depending on how the power is worded (I don't have the codex, I'm afraid) one could potentially argue the following:

1) Choose a target unit at which to 'fire' the psychic shooting attack and resolve the initial position of the 24" line.
2) Draw the 24" line and note which models are hit by the line.
3) Since the models are hit by the line, and not the psychic shooting attack itself, they are not being 'fired upon' and are legally subject to the effects of the psychic power.

If the wording of the psychic power doesn't specifically state that models under the line are being 'fired upon' but rather that they are 'affected', then I don't see why hits into close combat or friendly models can't be resolved as normal.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:The only way I can possibly see refuting Yakface's argument is to somehow show that you aren't 'firing upon' the subsequent units that are engaged in close combat.

Depending on how the power is worded (I don't have the codex, I'm afraid) one could potentially argue the following:

1) Choose a target unit at which to 'fire' the psychic shooting attack and resolve the initial position of the 24" line.
2) Draw the 24" line and note which models are hit by the line.
3) Since the models are hit by the line, and not the psychic shooting attack itself, they are not being 'fired upon' and are legally subject to the effects of the psychic power.

If the wording of the psychic power doesn't specifically state that models under the line are being 'fired upon' but rather that they are 'affected', then I don't see why hits into close combat or friendly models can't be resolved as normal.

DoW

JotWW is a psychic shooting attack, which counts as firing a ranged weapon. And again, 'targeting' a unit is not fully inclusive of who is being shot at. There are quite a few weapons that target one unit but then can still affect ohter units at the same time (blast and template weapons).

We're not talking about models being killed by a head-cold here...JotWW is what is killing them and the rules SPECIFICALLY say that you cannot do exactly that (fire into combat).

Personally, I was surprised by this and didn't realize that this was how the rules were structured until looking at the rulebook just now, so I'd like to reiterate what yakface is saying about the rules preventing templates (and everything else) from shooting into close combat.

Absolutely nothing on page 29, the main rules for template weapons, prohibits placing a template over a model locked in close combat. Similarly, nothing on page 30 prohibits placing a blast over a model locked in close combat. You can read through the rules from page 15 through page 32, the entire Shooting Phase rules, and nowhere is there a prohibition against shooting into close combat.

The three paragraphs on page 40 under Shooting Into & Out of Close Combat contain all of the prohibitions against firing into close combat.

The third sentence of the first paragraph is a long winded statement about firing into close combat which ends "this is not permitted". This is the single sentence which prohibits placing templates over close combats and placing blasts over close combats because it prohibits shooting into a close combat at all.

The second paragraph of that section makes an exception to the first paragraphs blanket prohibition to allow blasts and templates to hit models in close combat if scatter causes the template or blast to move.

The Vibrocannon has explicit permission from its FAQ, Aura of Decay has explicit permission from its rules to target locked models, Nurgle's Rot has explicit permission. Jaws of the World Wolf does not have explicit permission.

Without explicit permission, the line of JotWW can no more touch a model locked in close combat than the 8" long template can be placed touching a model locked in close combat. Both actions are prohibited by that one sentence on page 40 as shooting into close combat.

yakface wrote:

kirsanth wrote:I think many are questioning if there is a prohibition from shooting friendly units that are not targeted and not in CC.

YES, that's what page 40 is. It says you cannot fire into CC, period.

And then the examples given are both blast and template weapons, which target specific units but can ALSO be used to hit models in units they aren't targeting (just like JotWW does!).

I am either mis-reading or mis-stating, yakface.

Are you saying "Yes there is a prohibition from shooting friendly units that are not targeted and not in CC?"
That is what I am actually unable to find--I agree with everything regarding the inability to hit units in CC.

This is all barring shooting attacks that scatter or are otherwise have written exceptions.

kirsanth wrote:
Are you saying "Yes there is a prohibition from shooting friendly units that are not targeted and not in CC?"
That is what I am actually unable to find--I agree with everything regarding the inability to hit units in CC.

This is all barring shooting attacks that scatter.

Sorry, I misunderstood you then.

I agree that I do not think (outside of models locked in combat) there is a prohibition against shooting your own models as long as you aren't targeting a friendly unit specifically.

Blast and template weapons both specifically say that you can't put them over friendly models, but unlike the rules for firing into combat, there is no blanket statement against 'weird' weapons like JotWW from doing so.


Of course, it is really 'strange' that you're allowed to hit your own models with JotWW when they're not locked in combat but as soon as you are the psyker suddenly 'cares' about hitting his comrades.

So I think if you wanted to play with the 'spirit' of the rules you'd never draw the JotWW line over your friendly models in any circumstance, but as far as the rules are strictly concerned as long as you:

1) Don't target (i.e. cross over the first model of) a friendly unit with JotWW
2) Don't shoot into combat

Then you've broken no restrictions by crossing over a friendly model.

Gotcha. I am 100% in agreement then--sorry for the confusion!

editing to add:
Going to spend a bit more looking, but it really does seem there is no restriction against shooting your own units so long as they are not targeted nor in CC.

Admittedly, I am also unable to find any other way to do it, but that seems to be something else to read up on. . . .

yakface wrote:
What? I've pointed it out multiple times already! Page 40 clearly restricts all firing into CC, with 'targeting' not being part of the equation. And again, look at the examples given on page 40...Flamers are a weapon that 'targets' a unit AND can affect other (non-target) models. But because of the blanket restriction on firing into CC you are not willing allowed to place a flamer template over models in CC, regardless of whether the target is 'legal' or not.

Again, my argument:

P1: JotWW is a psychic shooting attack (SW codex page 37).
P2: Psychic Shooting Attacks follow the rules for shooting (rulebook page 50).
P3: One of the rules for shooting is that models may not fire into close combat (rulebook page 40).

C1: Therefore, JotWW may not be used on models locked in combat.

Has yet to be refuted. Until you can point out where the flaw in that logic lays, the rules stand as written.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:I think many are questioning if there is a prohibition from shooting friendly units that are not targeted and not in CC.

YES, that's what page 40 is. It says you cannot fire into CC, period.

And then the examples given are both blast and template weapons, which target specific units but can ALSO be used to hit models in units they aren't targeting (just like JotWW does!).

Indeed you have, and yes it does state that in the rule book. Which I have not disputed. But I suppose the wording of "affects everybody else" is actually to mean "affects everybody else except for those that couldn't otherwise be targeted by this attack."

Also to note, it's right to compare this power to a template weapon as they are not the same, however similar their rules restrictions may be.

Kevin949 wrote: But I suppose the wording of "affects everybody else" is actually to mean "affects everybody else except for those that couldn't otherwise be targeted by this attack."

Not quite. I covered this in an earlier post.

Mannahnin wrote:"Everybody else" = everybody else who is legally affected.

Wow, people. I never expected my question about Jaws to become such a heated debate. It seems like a resolution has been agreed upon, which is good. I agree with yakface after having gone over the pertinent sections of the BRB, and even with the prohibitions upon where the line for JotWW can and cannot be drawn, it is still one face-raping power for sure.

Mannahnin wrote:

Kevin949 wrote: But I suppose the wording of "affects everybody else" is actually to mean "affects everybody else except for those that couldn't otherwise be targeted by this attack."

Not quite. I covered this in an earlier post.

Mannahnin wrote:"Everybody else" = everybody else who is legally affected.

I fail to see how what I posted and what you quoted of yourself is any different other than the wording. Regardless, you're adding words that are not there to suit your point of view, and if memory serves that is not cohesive to rules and restrictions. To assume something is implied through words that are not there is wrong. Everybody else is simply everybody else.

Not at all.

"Everybody else" is vague. It could just as easily be read to mean "everybody else on the table" as it could to mean "everybody else on the line", or whatever else you think it means.

Given that the rules tell us that certain units (like vehicles and jump troops) are unaffected even if the line passes over them, the vague "everybody else" in that FAQ answer obviously CANNOT mean everybody under the line.

I'm merely reading it in a way which is compatible with the actual rules.

I seem to have been misunderstood. I side with Mannahnin.
When I said;

Steelmage99 wrote:It does hit everybody else.....after you have selected your legal target.

I meant that a target is only legal as long as no other rule is broken in the selecting of it. Just like with a flamer, once the selection/placement breaks another rule (hitting a unit in cc), the selection/placement is no longer legal.
When determining whether a given unit/model is a legal target, we have to make sure we don't break other rules in the process, such as hitting a unit in cc......just as with a flamer.
Should we determine that a unit in cc is also hit as part of the selection, the target is no longer a legal target and another must be selected.

Good, conclusions on this thread lead me to think JotWW has some fair limitations, preventing it to become some sort of "win button".

That's good news for me since I don't and I won't play SW (not that I don't like them, it's just that I don't picture myself playing them) and this thread means enduring SW (as a whole) has got a bit easier...