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Hello,

Ive done some searching, but the answers are quite old. Do Dwarven cannons need to guess ranges now?

Was reading the rulebook which said yes, but I read somewhere you dont have to anymore.

If not, you just say it lands 1" from the base of the target then and hope for a 6"+ bounce? or within the unit, so even a misfire on bounce will at least kill a model (on 2+).

Cheers

There is no more guessing ranges, ever. You can always measure for any reason at any time, see the BRB FAQ.

Also check out the Dwarf FAQ as well.

Thanks for clearing that up. So you have the potential of taking out a 300+ point model on the 1st turn on the roll of a 2, then a D6. providing no misfire?

Can you just say you want the ball to land on the unit and even a misfire (lands on the spot) a simple 2+ could wound it?

Can you just say you want the ball to land on the unit and even a misfire (lands on the spot) a simple 2+ could wound it?

You nominate a point you want the ball to land at (initially). You roll the artillery die, and the ball lands a number of inches away from the spot you nominated, based on the roll. If you misfire on that initial roll, the war machine suffers a misfire according to the BRB. Usually players nominate a point before the unit they are firing at, due to the artillery die usually moving the shot forward anywhere from 2-10 inches.

After determining the location of the balls landing, you then roll the die again to see how far it bounces. At this point, if you misfire, the ball does not move, and lands where you previously determined it to. If it is on top of a model, that model has been hit. Usually this means you wound on a 2+, with no armour save allowed.

And yes, you have the potential for taking out 300+ points of a model in 1 hit. If you hit a ridden monster, both parts of the model suffer the hit, if I remember correctly.

Lehnsherr wrote:If it is on top of a model, that model has been hit. Usually this means you wound on a 2+, with no armour save allowed.

And yes, you have the potential for taking out 300+ points of a model in 1 hit. If you hit a ridden monster, both parts of the model suffer the hit, if I remember correctly.

That is correct, both the rider and the monster are hit (thanks GW...).

You're right, the strength of the cannon means that you usually wound on a 2+ with no armor save offered. Unlike other things, though, the cannon does not automatically remove armor; it is the strength of the shot that does so. This is on occasion an important thing to distinguish since there are certain items that can lower the strength of a ranged attack, a Dark Elf's Cloak of Hag Graef for instance. The cannon is only S5 against a model with that item, so it's Armor -2 rather than fully negating it. So Lehnsherr was absolutely correct, just wanted to point out that sometimes the wording can make a difference.

Im almost there! Ok I understand aiming just before the target to try and roll to hit all ranks. But if I wanted to hit a single target ie hero or chariot, can I just state the landing ball to be on the actual target, which means the result of the artillery die being null as even a misfire will hit (land on) the intended target?

heh long sentence^

No, if it is a misfire on the FIRST roll no attack ever lands - there is a misfire immediately


If there is a misfire on the second roll of the artillery dice it then plugs.

On average 7" in front of your target should give you a "hit" on the front model of a rank in most situations; only a misfire, 8, 10 result on the first dice roll will miss the front rank (by taking the shot over, and not even then for 40mm models on a "8")

Ok i geddit now. You nominate and add the roll to that distance. This is where it lands. So like Nos said, 7" away is a safe bet. Then you roll to see how far it bounces.

Clear now.

So really its pot luck if you get the 1st rank (intended large target). All you can do is nominate 6-7" off target and hope to roll 6" plus eh.

The only skill involved is working out the average? which isnt really a skill, its a fact So you have no input if youre gonna hit em, relying purely on the law of averages^^

Well, you have to hope for 2 -6 " and then a decent bounce - you dont have to roll 6" plus for the first roll ( in fact you generally want to roll 2 - 6", then at least 6" for the second)

Well thanks gents.

I guess i'll stick to a runed up bolt thrower with eng to take out large targets. No armour save and at least its one simple roll of a 3+

In your experience, what artillery piece is good at taking out those large targets/chariots?

KSpen wrote:Well thanks gents.

I guess i'll stick to a runed up bolt thrower with eng to take out large targets. No armour save and at least its one simple roll of a 3+

In your experience, what artillery piece is good at taking out those large targets/chariots?

Cannons

Yeah. Cannons are pretty much better than bolt throwers now. Higher S and d6 Wounds. Sure, she'll cost 120+pts, but two bolt throwers with enough runes to make them worthy will run ya' 175pts anyway, and someone might be able to argue that two bolt throwers are the equal of a cannon.

Dwarfen cannons are extremely accurate, since their Rune lets them re-roll those Misfire! results. And they're dependable, for the same reason.

Grudge Throwers would work in a pinch, but are less reliable in this instance.

Grudge Throwers are actually where the money is at. Master Engineers (one will do) can make them stupidly accurate, and acts as an insurance policy for multiple machines.

But, yes, Cannon >>>>>>> Bolt Thrower. I still occasionally will take a flaming Bolt Thrower just to soften up Trolls for an Organ Gun shot.

Back when I had dwarves, I put together a shooting solution charts for my cannons.
It had the best place to aim to hit a single model (by base size), and the best place to aim to maximize damage on a unit (by unit depth).
I notice that people frequently start inches off from the "ideal" spot, and are getting less utility out of the cannons.

For Single model sniping, Grudges & Cannons really run neck and neck. The Grudge is only slightly less accurate, but does bring better range and indirect fire to the game, and is of usually more utility against the masses. Of course, it comes in at more points, so you pay for those extra options.

I like the idea of the cheap flaming bolt thrower; it is a good way to strip regen. I had not thought of that.

-Matt

A master engineer will certainly make the grudge thrower better, but at that point, you've got a lot of points in those war machines. I think the cannon is point-for-point more efficient.

I'm not sure if this is spot-on, but I still think that a grudge thrower with an master engineer is on equal grounds with a cannon and the Rune of Forging in terms of accuracy against monsters with square bases; the scatter die might as well be a straight line, if the stone is aimed at the center of the base. Against models with wider/longer bases, the cannon gets slightly better or worse, depending on facing.

But all of that is pretty small. The cannon strikes everything in a line for S10 d6 Wounds, where the thrower hits one spot.

Not to say that grudge throwers aren't amazing; they can kill handfuls of rank-and-file and bonk dragons on the head. I just think cannons are better at monster-sniping, considering probability. But I may be proven wrong, if someone can show a comprehensive cannon/stone thrower probability chart.

Warpsolution wrote:A master engineer will certainly make the grudge thrower better, but at that point, you've got a lot of points in those war machines. I think the cannon is point-for-point more efficient.

I'm not sure if this is spot-on, but I still think that a grudge thrower with an master engineer is on equal grounds with a cannon and the Rune of Forging in terms of accuracy against monsters with square bases; the scatter die might as well be a straight line, if the stone is aimed at the center of the base. Against models with wider/longer bases, the cannon gets slightly better or worse, depending on facing.

But all of that is pretty small. The cannon strikes everything in a line for S10 d6 Wounds, where the thrower hits one spot.

Not to say that grudge throwers aren't amazing; they can kill handfuls of rank-and-file and bonk dragons on the head. I just think cannons are better at monster-sniping, considering probability. But I may be proven wrong, if someone can show a comprehensive cannon/stone thrower probability chart.

Really if you think about the dice results, you see the cannon coming out ahead.
A stone thrower gets a "hit" on 2 of the 6 sides of a scatter die, with a re-roll.
A cannon gets a hit on 2 of the 6 sides of the artillery die, with a re-roll, and if armed so that both 8 and 10 hit, quite a few bounce hits as well.
To get addition hits, a stone thrower needs the scatter to be 2" and in a 90 degree arch (1/6th on distance, 1/4th on direction)
A cannon needs the two rolls to total 8" (2+6, 2+8, 2+10, 4+4, 4+6, 4+8, 4+10, 6+2, 6+4, 6+8, 6+10)
Because you have pre-knowlege of both dice on the stone thrower, and only the re-roll some of the time on the 2nd bounce for the cannon, the math gets messy.
The breakdown I have (which I think is correct) is about a 84% chance of a forging cannon hitting, if fired so that a 10 and an 8 hit on the initial shot.

The key to aiming is:
Stone Thrower: Aim for a corner, so that a 2" scatter can still hit your main target (25% of the time, as 90 out of 360 degrees results in a hit)
Cannon: Aim so that both 8 and 10 hit, and only re-roll a misfire on the first die.

Aiming dead center with a stone will make all 2" scatters miss.
Aiming closer to the target with the cannons will make all 10's on artillery dice miss, and force you to burn the re-roll early.

You should get about 60% hits with stone throwers (center hole on a 50mm target), and 84% with cannons.
Firing at larger bases improves cannons more than stone throwers.

-Matt

Well...bam.

Warpsolution wrote:Well...bam.

Just realized my math is flawed on the stone thrower, and it's worse than that. I was using just the scatter die to determine if it came down on target (with a hit being good), but totally forgot about the other die. A misfire causes a lost of the hit, so it's only 5/6th as good as I thought, or 35/36th, if you include the master engineer.

I think the cannon and stone thrower run neck and neck when targeting a model less than 2" across, with a slight edge to the cannon.
I'd break it down, but I don't think anyone cares, and I don't have excel on my laptop.


My rule of thumb was always take a cannon and a grudge thrower.
Cannon big things 1st, then follow with stone if needed.
Stone small targets 1st, then follow with cannon if needed.
When all else fails, use organ gun.

-Matt

I don't think anyone is going to breGrudge you for your calculations being off-target by that kind of a margin.

So there you have it, folks. You've seen every Dwarf player ever take at least one cannon and one grudge thrower, and now you know why.

To be honest, I think that the Organ Gun is a lot less useful in 8th. A grudge thrower seems to be capable of about the same thing at a much longer range, though it does take up precious Special allotment.
But then I started thinking about ways to protect your war machines. Engineer with a brace of pistols. Rune of Immolation. Skinks will kill war machines fast, even Dwarf ones. Gutter Runners are the ultimate war machine hunters. Then I realized: the Organ Gun. If you deploy carefully, you should be able to get off at least one shot against these guys, and probably more, since they won't have enough models to kill you back.
It's the automatic hits- great against skirmishers, and something that the Dwarfs have a hard time with anyway. The mechanic makes very little sense, but let's not complain about that.

Just to throw some other monkey wrenches into the works:

Stonethrowers don't require line of sight at all. You can plant one behind a building and lob all the rocks you want. You just subtract the crew's BS from the automatic scatter. This may prove useful against certain foes (say, any flavor of Elves, who can have a lot of effective shooting, but which all requires line of sight).

Bolt Throwers require you SLAY the first model before resolving wounds against the second, and so on. It's possible for a good ward save (or a crap roll to wound or roll on number of wounds) to prevent any casualties at all, while Stone Throwers can roll against all of the models under the template.

Cannons also require you to slay the first model (if it is monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, or just a monster) before you can roll to wound any subsequent models, too. Again, a good ward save or bad wounding roll can rob you of the chance for any overflow injuries, while you get multiple tries with the Stone Thrower.

Both of these reduce the lethality of cannons and bolt throwers somewhat (of course, Stone Throwers don't cause multiple wounds on anyone but the center model anyway). They also mean that against some targets, you might be better off NOT targeting the big tough guy in the unit, so you can actually KILL more models.

Don't need to throw indirect into the calculations. You have a 0% chance of hitting indirectly with a cannon, so the stone thrower is a better choice.

The cannons weakness of penetrating cav is off set by the Stone Throwers inability to ignore their armor. Only the guy under the hole is at no save.

-Matt

I Agree with Warpsolution. Im thinking a nice setup would be 2 grudge throwers 1 cannon and an organ gun.

Was thinking of putting a master engineer in the middle of a wedge/triangle formation so those 3 pieces can benefit from his bonuses, with the cannon in the front.

That master eng helps so much wouldnt you agree? Rerolling arty and scatter dice with a runed grudge thrower takes you from a 33% chance of a direct hit to 66% if im correct? (or is it 50%?)

The potential of wiping out over a dozen models too with that pen rune^

Then the cannon, RoForging removes 1 misfire then the master eng lets you reroll 1st throw distance.

And the organ gun, like you said to deal with skirmish/scouts/fast cav.

Im new to WHFB, but acknoweldge the fact that its mainly about infantry and better magic, hence hordes, hence grudge thowers^and a tooled up runesmith.

Oh and to prot my arty line, Im thinking quarellers with GWs?

Well, according to the errata of the Dwarf armybook only one warmachine gets to use the effect of the Master Engineer per turn, so even if you make that nice triangle only one warmachine gets boosted which imo should be the Grudgethrower. But i just found out I have been playing with wrong rules... thought a simple engi gave the possibility to reroll the art. dice for the grudgethrower... but thx to this post I checked it once more ^^ TY DAKKA

Aw, what a shame. Back to the drawing board for me then.

To reply on your last question, a bolt thrower is a cheap way to get multiple wounds targets down, it just is less accurate and less powerful. I lost interest in bolt throwers just because they aren't accurate enough imo. But one thing bothered me about the grudgethrower rules. Since when does it do multiple wounds? Someone in here said something like that...

The rules for a Stonethrower tells you it does multiple wounds.

Yeah, only the unit in the dead centre takes multi, with no armour saves allowed.

Im unclear, but think the others do get a save.

Bolt throwers with 2 pen runes and engineer should be useful though, S8 is nice plus some flaming. BS4 rolling on 4s at long range.

I suppose grudge throwers have a 33% chance of direct hit, but even a 2" scatter you would still hit a large target at S5 with a pen rune on it, so another 50% chance to hit (hit, hit, 2,4,6,8).

Id say the bolt thrower is better (for taking that big target out) in that both arty pieces get 50% hit chance, but the bolt is higher S, plus no misfire. What do you think?

But in general a grudgethrower could serve as char/monsterkiller as well as unitsquisher

True, but Id still say 50% with bolt over 33% with grude chance to get that killing hit (also no misfire). Solution? take both

Considering no self-respecting Dwarf General would ever take a Grudge Thrower without a Rune of Accuracy, it is much higher than 33% to hit with them.

I think we have strayed from the rule discussion at hand