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My friend is asking our gaming group if he can field a Stormraven Gunship in his regular Space Marine army.
We are all new to the game and so far can't see why not.
Is this unbalanced? Shouldn't the point value of the Stormraven, and the FoC, generally balance it out for the marines?

No one really knows how unbalanced it is in other space marine armies because it was (in theory) never balanced for them in the first place.

Which, I think, is the real issue.

Would it be unbalanced in a Tyranid list?

Editing to add a theory!

It's just as unbalanced, sight unseen, as people say a Land Raider or a Monolith is. Played correctly, it could be a game winner; not, it's a bullet-magnet.

The real question is can your friend play a Stormraven with the regular Marine codex? Not really. It's in the Blood Angels codex only for a reason. Encourage your friend to start playing Blood Angels, then he can play the Stormraven.

lets be honest its point value is nothing to do with balance. its only to do with a marketting campaing to get us to buy lots of them....

Ok, I understand the question was kind of poorly stated, so I'll restate, Do you veteran players think it would be ok, in friendly games, for him to use it?
Would it make the games suck because he would either be gimping himself or creating a over powered army?

Also, Solo, what is the reason it's only in the Blood Angels codex?

The question should be; are there things in a regular SM army that are more deadly inside of a Storm Raven than the things the Blood Angels can put in it?

I could see sternguard being very effective as one of the two units as they could fight at full effect the turn it comes down. However I don't know the BA list, so I don't know if they have them as well.



Dang! Ninja'd by the OP...

Reason its in the Blood angels codex only? I marketting simple. Blood Angels are the IP at the moment that GW are pushing big time for sales.

Thanks Gitsplitta, that's about as succinct as I would be able to put it.

Anyone?

I dont think it would be horribly unbalanced but you may want to remind him that if he is doing it that other people may want to pull in things from other codexs as well.

Other armies aren't built with having it work with them, some of the special rules it has for having troops disembark are written primarily for blood angels and will almost definitely be changed in the grey knights codex.

Anything goes if your friendly opponent agrees to it.

If it is over the top, I daresay that agreement will only occur once though.

It is really no different than looking at anything from a different codex and asking to use it. It is outside of the 'actual rules', but those rules suggest asking your opponent to play different rules on occation.

Always ask if it is something you are interested in, but be prepared for folks to say no if it something they are not.

Yeah, speaking of that, anyone have a link to the article where they mention that the Knights will be getting the Stormraven?
I'd like to read that.
I know I don't know crap about the game, but it seems like the Marines are all close enough in terms of points, that unless there is an obvious loop hole like Gitsplitta proposed, that it would be a pretty safe bet.

It is a friendly game, go ahead and let him. If it turns out that something random stuffed in the stormraven is too good, ask him to not do it after that. I assume the goal here is to have fun right? I can't even think of what that unit would be...oh no, Marnaus Calgar and Lysander are sharing a stormraven, run! I really doubt that there's any way it would be "unbalanced" or gimp his army.

GW doesn't exactly do a bang up job balancing their own game - I wouldn't worry about it, the best solution is to play it and find out.

That being said...blood angels aren't that different than space marines. What exactly does he want to play the stormraven with? I'd be suspicious if he had some specific nefarious plan already decided. But if he just doesn't like vampire marines and doesn't want to do counts-as-marines (my favorite chapter personally)...there's really no problem with this, it's up to you guys.

@matphat: In my army (vanilla marine), this is the first use that would occur to me.

Load one up with sternguard and a rifleman dread & put in reserve. It deep strikes (hopefully on a beacon) & unloads it's guns on heavy targets and/or transports. the rifleman unloads it's guns on any transport left over. Sternguard disembark and rapid fire with special ammunition into any exposed troops.

Perfect for all situations?? No of course not. But I think pretty effective. Certainly more effective than any options I currently have.

Is that worse than what the blood angels can do with it?

Gitsplitta wrote:@matphat: In my army (vanilla marine), this is the first use that would occur to me.

Load one up with sternguard and a rifleman dread & put in reserve. It deep strikes (hopefully on a beacon) & unloads it's guns on heavy targets and/or transports. the rifleman unloads it's guns on any transport left over. Sternguard disembark and rapid fire with special ammunition into any exposed troops.

Perfect for all situations?? No of course not. But I think pretty effective. Certainly more effective than any options I currently have.

Is that worse than what the blood angels can do with it?

Blood Angels can do exactly that

Oh, and for the record, none of us has more than 3-4 games under our belts so far.

The only thing that's in the regular Space Marine codex that's not in the BA codex and also seems relevant is the Ironclad Dreadnought. I've heard they can be nasty, but they don't seem much worse than a Furioso or Death Company dred from the BA codex.

I guess if he ran Shrike and 5 Assault Terminators in the SR that could be pretty nasty, since they could fleet off the drop, but it's not that different from a Land Raider.

MrEconomics wrote:The only thing that's in the regular Space Marine codex that's not in the BA codex and also seems relevant is the Ironclad Dreadnought. I've heard they can be nasty, but they don't seem much worse than a Furioso or Death Company dred from the BA codex.

I guess if he ran Shrike and 5 Assault Terminators in the SR that could be pretty nasty, since they could fleet off the drop, but it's not that different from a Land Raider.

Pretty sure Blood Angels don't get Thunderfires, among another thing or two. Just like the vanila codex marines don't get some of the cool things that the Blood Angels get, like Furioso Dradnoughts, etc.

Long story short to the OP, learn to use your codex. Don't worry about all the cool toys the other armies get. If you want those toys, play those codexes....

MrEconomics wrote:The only thing that's in the regular Space Marine codex that's not in the BA codex and also seems relevant is the Ironclad Dreadnought.

Well, the right squad combined with the right IC replacing Combat Tactics would spring to mind... Vulkan, Sicarius, Pedro...

Lets get this one clear. The Stormraven is not in the other Marine Codexes not because it is a Blood Angel special but because it post dates other codexes.

GW has decided only recently that every race is going to get a flyer, we might get an exception along the way but here goes. The Thunderhawk is too big, so GW made a mini Thunderhawk, which is what the Stormraven is.

While it means adding White Dwarf articles to codexes, again, the rukle is clear: the Storm Raven is Chapter Approved all SM codexes.

Whether that includes CSM and Grey Knights I do not know, but Dark Angel, Black Templar, Space Wolf and vanilla armies can all take Storm Ravens.

Yes they have a ridiculous carrying capacity, but that is for convenience. They also have a ridiculous points price, that is for marketing purposes. Useful, yes, powerful, yes, balanced, no. Having one to take the strain off a fully mechanised list should be more than fair for friendly games. Mech marines are better than they were but by no means an optimal army. Otherwise leave Stormravens to the minimaxers.

Orlanth wrote:While it means adding White Dwarf articles to codexes, again, the rukle is clear: the Storm Raven is Chapter Approved all SM codexes.

Whether that includes CSM and Grey Knights I do not know, but Dark Angel, Black Templar, Space Wolf and vanilla armies can all take Storm Ravens.

I missed that, where did you see it?

kirsanth wrote:

Orlanth wrote:While it means adding White Dwarf articles to codexes, again, the rukle is clear: the Storm Raven is Chapter Approved all SM codexes.

Whether that includes CSM and Grey Knights I do not know, but Dark Angel, Black Templar, Space Wolf and vanilla armies can all take Storm Ravens.

I missed that, where did you see it?

Current issue of White Dwarf, I missed it too because I don't subscribe, but I have been assured its there as a Chapter Approved rule.

matphat wrote:Oh, and for the record, none of us has more than 3-4 games under our belts so far.

That kinda changes things. I would stick to codex till you're all a bit more experienced.

The current issue of white dwarf. while having the rules, does not list the stormraven as being allowed in any book other than BA and GK (come april)

Orlanth wrote:Current issue of White Dwarf, I missed it too because I don't subscribe, but I have been assured its there as a Chapter Approved rule.

Nothing personal, but I think the phrase is "pics or it didn't happen".

Scott-S6 wrote:

matphat wrote:Oh, and for the record, none of us has more than 3-4 games under our belts so far.

That kinda changes things. I would stick to codex till you're all a bit more experienced.

I was thinking that too, learn how things do work then figure how you want to change them. . .but to each their own.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The current issue of white dwarf. while having the rules, does not list the stormraven as being allowed in any book other than BA and GK (come april)

That I had seen, which is why I asked about Orlanth's assertion.

kirsanth wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Current issue of White Dwarf, I missed it too because I don't subscribe, but I have been assured its there as a Chapter Approved rule.

Nothing personal, but I think the phrase is "pics or it didn't happen".

Scott-S6 wrote:

matphat wrote:Oh, and for the record, none of us has more than 3-4 games under our belts so far.

That kinda changes things. I would stick to codex till you're all a bit more experienced.

I was thinking that too, learn how things do work then figure how you want to change them. . .but to each their own.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The current issue of white dwarf. while having the rules, does not list the stormraven as being allowed in any book other than BA and GK (come april)

That I had seen, which is why I asked about Orlanth's assertion.

Done a bit of research, and the wording is rather vague sadly, I put that down to sloppy editing. White Dwarf made the point of stating the Night Spinner was Chapter Approved for all Eldar (shouldnt that be Craftworld Approved?). But omitted saying that it such this time, it is listed as 'for Space Marines' rather than 'for Blood Angels', but that wasn't phrased as a definitive rule. Have to wait for the FAQ, which means sometime next year I suppose.
Anyway GW has been hawking them at my local store along the grounds that they are Chapter Approved all SM Chapters and that that had been reinforced by head office that that would be confirmed in the (then next) White Dwarf. This could lead to heated discussions if we were misled. Personally I didn't buy one, £41 is too much for a plastic kit that size IMHO, but I was tempted, and I have no Blood Angels.

I put this down to Games Workshop SNAFU with White Dwarf editorial, studio and retail departments not communicating.

I don't think the fact that you've only played 3 or 4 games has much bearing on this. If anything, it makes me want to encourage you to let your friend do it even more.

There are multiple ways to go with this hobby, none of which is wrong. It is really up to you guys how you want to play. Some people play stock-codex, but treat it as a beer and pretzels game. Some people create a campaign, or a narrative for their armies. Some people play mostly to practice for tourneys. Some people play just to see their nice painted minis on the table. Some people fill their armies with as much forgeworld stuff as possible because it looks cool. Etc, Etc, etc.

My gaming group...we'd almost never allow someone to do something like that, because we're stuck in tourney mode and codex-rules mode and while that is great, it's far from the only way to enjoy the hobby. I would encourage you, as you're just starting out, to be more flexible than not for now. Don't worry too much about game balance, the game isn't balanced. Don't worry too much about winning. Just play some games, see what you like and don't like about the hobby, and go from there.

Orlanth wrote:
GW has decided only recently that every race is going to get a flyer, we might get an exception along the way but here goes. The Thunderhawk is too big, so GW made a mini Thunderhawk, which is what the Stormraven is.

While it means adding White Dwarf articles to codexes, again, the rukle is clear: the Storm Raven is Chapter Approved all SM codexes.

Umm, no they didn't. It is rumored to come in the "Summer of Flyers". Might want to check that before stating that the rule is clear. It is under the "Blood Angels Design Notes" and you are the only person I've seen have any question about it. By your logic I could put nids, orks, or eldar in one.

OT, I would try more games with the things you can use before moving on to things you wish you could. Unless they were Apocalypse games, no way he has used every unit in the SM dex.

Orlanth wrote:Anyway GW has been hawking them at my local store along the grounds that they are Chapter Approved all SM Chapters and that that had been reinforced by head office that that would be confirmed in the (then next) White Dwarf. This could lead to heated discussions if we were misled. Personally I didn't buy one, £41 is too much for a plastic kit that size IMHO, but I was tempted, and I have no Blood Angels.

Too bad; I had my hopes up for a moment.

From a financial standpoint, it would make sense to allow the Stormraven in every marine codex; that would be like 10 times more potential buyers?


As for using the Stormraven in a regular list right now; it up to you and your opponent to agree. Blood Angels and regular marines are not that far apart, and most tactics the Stormraven is suited for, are done better by the BA than regular SM.

whalemusic360 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
GW has decided only recently that every race is going to get a flyer, we might get an exception along the way but here goes. The Thunderhawk is too big, so GW made a mini Thunderhawk, which is what the Stormraven is.

While it means adding White Dwarf articles to codexes, again, the rukle is clear: the Storm Raven is Chapter Approved all SM codexes.

Umm, no they didn't. It is rumored to come in the "Summer of Flyers". Might want to check that before stating that the rule is clear.

OT, I would try more games with the things you can use before moving on to things you wish you could. Unless they were Apocalypse games, no way he has used every unit in the SM dex.

Well my local GW was convinced enough they painted the shop model for Imperial Fists, and they said they got the info from head office.
It looks like a communications feth up in management, we are talking GW here, you shouldn't be suprised that we don't get clear confirmation. It will come when they stop fumbling.

matphat wrote:Ok, I understand the question was kind of poorly stated, so I'll restate, Do you veteran players think it would be ok, in friendly games, for him to use it?
Would it make the games suck because he would either be gimping himself or creating a over powered army?

Also, Solo, what is the reason it's only in the Blood Angels codex?

Dude in friendly games it's up to you. whats the point of your friendly games? To have fun? Then by all means. To practice your lists or prepare for a tournie. then probably not.