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I recently posted a thread about peoples' opinion on the tyranid hierophant. As I have never played 4th edition rules I didn't know that in the precious edition the hierophant apparently had a 5+ invuln and a 2+ armor save as opposed to the 3+ invuln that warp field offers now. I was surprised at the number of responses claiming that 3++ is a cheap shot, yet I've been to other sites and read other threads here apparently others have played it at 3++ and even lost the bio-titan in the game, while other's state that the all new dex rules replace those of previous editions. what I'm really interested in is a fun, balanced game, but apoc seems to raise so many questions that really come down to what player's agree on. For instance, if I am supposed to use 4th ed rules for the hierophant, does that not mean that I can still use the without number rule for the endless swarm? After all, it's a fourth ed rule not in the current codex. So I suppose what really looking for is some constructive advice as to how to mod the hireophant (and other units in apoc as well) in as equatable fashion as possible. Lukas83 suggesting giving the bio-titan a 4+ save, which seems reasonable for a 1250 model, but others say that if destroyer weapons kill monstrous creatures in one hit, then the 3++ save is actually a fair buff for nid players to use. So are there any apoc players who have settled issues such as these fair and amicably without rules lawyering until someones ears bleed.

I would say keep its old 2+/5++. The 3++ would make it just mean. Where are the rules for the Heirophant? I would say follow the rulebook it comes from.

The rules are in the apocalypse book itself. There it only states that the hierophant is a psyker and that it has the warp filed power. It doesn't articulate anything more then that. According to the more experienced players I know they say the new codex rules trump all previous editions. In the current codex warp field supplies a 3++ save. According to G.W. cannon you run with the new rules, as the codex trumps all other rules as stated in the 5th edition rule book and that includes the opinion of a current manager of a Games Workshop store. But I do i appreciate the opinion, and that's one vote for 4th ed rules. So let me pose the other pertinent question, if I use 4th edition saves for the hierophant, that means Without Number which is applied to the endless swarm formation still counts to right? Thus meaning that any gaunt or gant unit that costs 8 points or less per individual model may return to play the turn after it is destroyed. It's not in the 5th ed book, but by tour assertion the rule still applies in apoc.

Does it, in Apocalypse, define Warp Field? If it does not, then, sadly for the opponent of the Heirophant, it would have a 3++, as the definition of Warp Field has changed. Which is ludicrous.

Apoc defines nothing. Pretty much everything there that has a relation to tyranids was changed or removed in the 5th codex too.

new warp field only works for zoanthrophes

The heirophant is already grossly underpriced for what it does. When it was made, it was given a 5++ save. It is not part of the Tyranid codex, therefore it shouldn't be updated with it. Almost nothing at its point cost can challenge it already, and you believe it should double its invuln save (1/3 to 2/3)?

Gavo wrote:Does it, in Apocalypse, define Warp Field? If it does not, then, sadly for the opponent of the Heirophant, it would have a 3++, as the definition of Warp Field has changed. Which is ludicrous.

It defines it in the codex. In 4th edition, Warp Field was a psychic power. In 5th edition, it's a Zoanthrope ability that specifies Zoanthropes using it.

Not the best argument against not giving the Hierophant the updated power, but the fact that it is costed for the old save is enough. Use the old save, and this is coming from someone who has one.

Also remember, Apocalypse isn't a balanced game, and isn't meant to be. If you want the 3++ save, discuss it with your opponents. There's enough unbalanced gak flying around an Apocalypse game that they probably won't mind.

And the 3++ save can be detrimental. What if your opponent has mostly missile launchers? They're not going to breach your 2+ save to force the 5+ invulnerable save. Will you willingly take the 'downgrade' in that case?

Missile Launchers only wound on 6's. So yes, I'll take the 'downgrade' to get 3++ saves vs D weapons and Lascannons.

-Loki- wrote:
And the 3++ save can be detrimental. What if your opponent has mostly missile launchers? They're not going to breach your 2+ save to force the 5+ invulnerable save. Will you willingly take the 'downgrade' in that case?

Its 2+ save is base in the profile. Warp Field is added on (I think). This would give it a 2+ and 3++. But the question is if the Heirophant uses the new Warp Field how does that change the use of other Apoc units with a newer codex?

1 Warp Field states that it grants zoanthrope 3++
is the phant zoanthorpe?
2 phant has warp field psychic power (that don't even work)
not warp field special rule

i don't really see any reason why should the -phant get that 3++

To me it seems that logic is the same behind saying that the Doom of Malan'tai doesn't have access to any of the Zoanthrope psyhcic powers,because it isn't a Zoanthrope.

RAW, I would give the Hierophant the 3++ save. However, Apocalypse is not the place for RAW discussion. Apocalypse should be RAI much more, going with what makes sense (and the most likely to result in a large explosion). I would say discuss it with the group before hand. It's just like how the IG section of the Apoc book makes references to 'Heroic Senior Officers' 'Junior Officers' and all kinds of other things that existed only in the older IG codex. You should discuss it with the gaming group before hand, and let them decide. The fact that we can't even agree on this subject after 3 different threads talking about Hierophants should show that this is going to be something that won't be solved without some direct word from GW.

actually by raw, phant don't have inv save.
why? because it has warp field psychic power ,not special rule that is the new 3++ save, and psychic powers without S value don't work on GGs

yeah talk with your opponent before the game

Devastator wrote:actually by raw, phant don't have inv save.
why? because it has warp field psychic power ,not special rule that is the new 3++ save, and psychic powers without S value don't work on GGs

yeah talk with your opponent before the game

You do have a point there, and that is a completely arguable point of view. Psyhcic powers with no strength value have no affect on Gargantuan creatures, and warp field is a psychic power with no strength value. It is therefore nullifeid by virtue of the Hierophan being a gargantuan creature.

I'm pretty sure it can be effected by its own power.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
And the 3++ save can be detrimental. What if your opponent has mostly missile launchers? They're not going to breach your 2+ save to force the 5+ invulnerable save. Will you willingly take the 'downgrade' in that case?

Its 2+ save is base in the profile. Warp Field is added on (I think). This would give it a 2+ and 3++. But the question is if the Heirophant uses the new Warp Field how does that change the use of other Apoc units with a newer codex?

The 2+ save is a result of the 4th codex warp field (which grants 2+ 5++ saves). If you do take the 3++, its horribly unreasonable to not also drop the 2+.

Thanks for the replies, particularly ChrisWWII, you make an excellent point. Everyone keeps saying that the warp filed is a psychivc power used only by zoanthropes, but it is not listed on the psychic power page, it's an ability given to an Zoanthrope and the doom of malan'tai, so I don't see any logic in that argument. However it's a mute point, as it would seem the decision is ultimately a regional one dependent on the attitudes and predilections of the local gaming community. Most every one I talk to around here says that it gets the 3++, and that's coming from people who fought against it not people who actually run one. So until attitudes change I go with the local store decision , and if it's ruled broken then I go with the new house rule, what ever makes for the best chance at a fun game.

Not by RAW, it can't. RAI, it obviously can, but RAW since the warp field has no strength value, it can not effect the gargantuan creature. That's just what the rules say.

However, the Hierophant's profile includes a 2+ in the armor save category, so the 2+ save is part of the Hierophant itself.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Devastator wrote:actually by raw, phant don't have inv save.
why? because it has warp field psychic power ,not special rule that is the new 3++ save, and psychic powers without S value don't work on GGs

yeah talk with your opponent before the game

You do have a point there, and that is a completely arguable point of view. Psyhcic powers with no strength value have no affect on Gargantuan creatures, and warp field is a psychic power with no strength value. It is therefore nullifeid by virtue of the Hierophan being a gargantuan creature.

Specifics > General. The immune to strengthless psyker powers is a general gargantuan creature rule, the warp field is a specific rule (and the old version is included in the profile, so it definitely works).

There's also the bit that the new version isn't a psyker power anymore, just a generic piece of equipment/special rule, that can't effect whether or not it gets the 3++. And of course there's the sheer insanity of thinking it would work that way even though it has a power that can only effect itself.

ghazwaagh34 wrote: Everyone keeps saying that the warp filed is a psychivc power used only by zoanthropes, but it is not listed on the psychic power page, it's an ability given to an Zoanthrope and the doom of malan'tai, so I don't see any logic in that argument.

nobody has said that "warp field" psychic power is only for zoanthopes, but new special rule called "warp field" is only for zoanthropes.
phant lacks "warp field" special rule and it cant use its "warp field" psychic power by being GG

Requia wrote:Specifics > General. The immune to strengthless psyker powers is a general gargantuan creature rule, the warp field is a specific rule (and the old version is included in the profile, so it definitely works).

nothing in phants profile overrides GG rules, so your point is? yeah it has the rule but it dont do anything (just like rendering on that SW character)
its just one example of GWs glorious skill in rule making

given that Apoc is an expansion and the fact that they're probably never gonna update it, it should be played RAI, giving the Hierophant a 2+/5++. If anyone wants to rule-lawyer it, he'll get a few middle fingers his way soon enough when everyone realises he will make the hierophant downright contradicting. That or use the Imperial Armour book rules.

I thought it was 2= and 6++, so how is it in the old rules that it gets a 5++ when the codex says 6++?

In my FLGS, we give the Hierophant a 4++ since there are arguments for both sides. We figure that this is a good middle ground since it's better than a 5++ but you're still failing your invulnerable 50% of the time.

The Imperial Armour book gives the Hierophant a 5++ Warp Field save. It's one of the Hierophant's special rules as opposed to the psychic power in the Apoc book.

Really, this could have been avoided if GW just said 'feth it, the Hierophant is one tough mofo. He's got a 2+ 5++ dual armour save like a Terminator', instead of putting a pshycic power on a non-psyker unit.

The Imperial Armour one is much more self-contained and perhaps a little more balanced, given it can only ever regen 5 wounds, not 10.

I've decided I'm going to run in accordance with the original rules, which I thought were 2+ 6++. So I guess my question now is does the 5++ imperial armor save actually apply as the stats lines between both books are significantly different. Shouldn't I tun it at 2+ 6++ as per 4th edition rules?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Imperial Armour one is much more self-contained and perhaps a little more balanced, given it can only ever regen 5 wounds, not 10.

Yeah, but it's also got that weird mass points special rule thing, which could confuse someone whose never played against the Heirophant before....not to mention it does make the damn thing a bit more durable than its 5 wounds would suggest.

Not sure what you mean by mass points. I'm running the apoc data sheet which, according to my knowledge, is the most up to date stats for a hierophant. I don't think imperial armor supersedes that apoc stats unless one player consents to allow another to use the older stat line. The Apoc data sheet is worth 1250 flat.

Mass points were something that worked out from IA4 The Anphelion Project.

The table is as follows:

Attack's Strength is equal to or greater than target's toughness: If it is an Ordnance/Massive/Mega/Lethal weapon then a serious wound is inflict, if not, then it is a serious wound on a 4+

Attack's Strength is less than target's toughness: Serious wound on a 6 regardless of statistic.

For every serious wound, remove one mass point. A titan-killer weapon inflicts D3 mass points.

Since I'm not willing to mathhammer this, just by assumption (though we all know what happens when you assume), I'd say that this makes it MORE reseliant, if only by a smidge.

That being said, Hierophants in this book only have T8 and W5, but they are also MUCH cheaper, and you may actually be able to fit two into a list. However the cannons are much weaker, and do not have the armor killing capability that the other does.

Mass points were basically Forgeworld giving gargantuan creatures a sort of 'damage table' to make them tougher, but still allowing a ludicrously lucky low strength shot to cripple it. While more complicated than simply stacking on more wounds and toughness, I think it was a good system. GW should have kept it for Apocalypse.

Footsloggin wrote:That being said, Hierophants in this book only have T8 and W5, but they are also MUCH cheaper, and you may actually be able to fit two into a list.

They're still Gargantuan Creatures, not a Heavy Support choice. They can still only be taken in 2000+ point games and count as an entire FoC by themselves.